Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => Bike Builds, Rebuilds And Restorations Only => Topic started by: leroy_can on January 18, 2021, 09:24:18 PM

Title: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on January 18, 2021, 09:24:18 PM
   Hi, New member here my 1st and only Guzzi was and is my 1987 LMIV SE bought  new in 88. Despite remaining mostly stock in appearance it has dual plugged/ported heads, aluminum timing gears, Baisley roller tipped rocker arms, 92mm nikasil cyl kit, and lightened flywheel all from Manfred at Raceco.
  Rennesport 1102 cam, Dyna ignition and coils, Bub Hyper exhaust. It was my main machine for many years and has 180,000 kms on it but I mostly lost interest in it and only use it 15 days a year now, I have 4 other bikes (We can get a cheap 15 day permit here 1 time per year) I never sell anything and considering it's value vs money I poured into it I may as well keep it.
    Newly retired I got the idea to attempt a 1400 conversion. Got a super deal on a 2014 engine with reasonably shipping. Since then I have been scouring the net to learn what I can about such conversions. They sure get attention and seems you either love or passionately hate the idea especially the carbureted part of it
   I am within a couple of weeks of fitting it to the frame and fully expect completion by spring. Unless I miscalculated somewhere or some of my one-off ideas are fails.
   My goal is to keep the bike as unchanged as possible for now and utilize as much as I can from the existing bike. Pretty sure some of this will be unique to this build.
     I should be able to return it to stock easily and the 1400 should be good to go back into a modern California as nothing is irreversible
      I have adapted the Bosch alternator and front cover from the LMIV (the alt being the most sketchy thing but time will tell) The mods I did to the rotor are however irreversible.

   Electronik Sanche front mounted ign. which I can use on the LMIV if the project fails. Most $ spent other than engine was this ign.
      Spent a very long time making a set of mirror image intakes to adapt my 40mm Dellortos
    THe Bub exhaust will be adapted. I bought a pair of 1400 headers and hope to make them and the Bubs go together but they are those massively thick looking double wall pipes and might look wrong but just to initially complete it they will do. the 1400 ex ports are larger and as well I need to lose the top crossover for an oil cooler location.
      Oh yeah I also expect to drive the original tach from the front cover drive but that's still in progress . Once that is completed or abandoned it can go in the frame
     Having my bike complete right there was a great help to measure and compare but last week I had progressed enough to pull the old eng out. FYI both engines side by side configured identically I took the opportunity to weigh them and It will only gain 10-11 lbs. If I do use the 1400 headers that figure will go up somewhat.
     I'm not overly concerned with the extra power destroying things I am 68 now and treat my toys gently but like having reserve power for some occasions.
     If I saw more other Guzzis over the years I might have known about other ways to make some of this work but had to work with what I have
(https://i.ibb.co/rtSxQwj/everything-057.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rtSxQwj) (https://i.ibb.co/p1QWHDd/guzzi-intakes-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p1QWHDd) (https://i.ibb.co/kGsDfvC/guzzi-intakes-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kGsDfvC) (https://i.ibb.co/Ldy8xK1/guzzi-intakes-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ldy8xK1) (https://i.ibb.co/yFz0VBM/guzzi-intakes-004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yFz0VBM) (https://i.ibb.co/wMXwydJ/guzzi-intakes-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wMXwydJ) (https://i.ibb.co/bsSCJ5L/guzzi-intakes-006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bsSCJ5L) (https://i.ibb.co/XDTF8tT/guzzi-intakes-007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XDTF8tT)
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Canuck750 on January 18, 2021, 10:24:33 PM
Great project, looking forward to following your progress, very impressive machine tool skills! :thumb:
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Turin on January 18, 2021, 11:12:28 PM
Sounds like it already has plenty of motor. I'll be following this  :popcorn:
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Rick4003 on January 19, 2021, 01:52:38 AM
Very cool project! Looking forward to following along! Machining works look nice too!
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Dave Swanson on January 19, 2021, 05:36:48 AM
Finally someone that Les P can relate to.   :bow:   :cheesy:

Great project.  I will be following for sure. 
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on January 19, 2021, 12:18:45 PM
  1st, I'm extremely flattered by the comments so far especially having seen the work done by them. I don't have photos of every step but here are a few more showing what was involved with the front cover. For something that looked like a bolt-on it was far from that.
   To start with the oil pump gear projects much further forward and the cover can't come close. Initially it didn't look like there was enough material to give the gear clearance but  it was difficult to measure. Finally I bought a spare cover on Ebay and started cutting mine. I was pleasantly surprised to gain clearance without seeing daylight and no discernible thin spots. I cut enough to completely clear with no gasket so it should be fine now. Oh yeah also the area behind the seal was contacting the front crankshaft nut but didn't take enough material removal to worry about.
    The bolt pattern was unchanged except for 2 items: 1st the 4 upper holes needed to be enlarged on my old cover for 8mm bolts and if you look closely at the photo you can see 2 spots circled where 1 hole was filled with a plug and a new hole drilled and tapped to match the old cover. Another fortunate thing was that the casting fully allowed for the relocated hole.
    Next the 1400 motor has 2 alignment dowels. Viewed from the front, the upper left larger one is the same as the LMIV location and the  bottom right uses a smaller hollow one the screw passes through. I counter bored the lower front hole from the inside in my LMIV cover to match
    Then I was able to fit my cover over the dowels. Fortunately I still hadn't enlarged the 4 upper holes or drilled the other new hole. Although the cover was a sweet fit on the dowels and the holes looked good there was a significant miss-alignment at the crankshaft hole. So I had to remove the dowels.
    I machined a disc to center the cover at the alternator and installed all the 6mm screws I could. Then I enlarged the 4 8mm holes as accurately as I could using close tolerances so the bolt shanks become the dowels. Many of these operations would have been way easier and more accurate with the bare block on the milling table but taking the nearly new engine apart was hopefully to be avoided. Turned out good enough and on final assembly I will also confirm alternator clearance and centering.
     Now my risky solution to the Bosch rotor adapting. I searched the internet looking at various crankshafts and alternator choices but saw no easy solutions. With my continuing goal of not taking the engine apart I proceeded. As far as I could find anyone else who has done this probably would be difficult to communicate with in English. Back to working with what I have. Just like the front cover I began my mods to the rotor with apprehension since without cutting an old rotor in 2 how do you know when you will cut into the windings or simply weaken it.
    Basically I bored out the center from the rear until it could clear the 1400 crankshaft. With the uncut rear face contacting the crankshaft nut the depth relative to the stator was nearly perfect. I then made an aluminum sleeve/spacer to press into the hole I bored that is a close fit to the threaded end of the crank for support. Next I cut the center out of the 1400 alternator pulley to be a press fit into the Bosch rotor.
   Both were pressed/locktited in. So now the rotor went on the shaft using the 1400 keyway but only the press fit and locktite keeping it from spinning. Any movement would be bad especially with the front mounted ignition.
    My solution was drilling an angled hole picking up on the keyed pulley center and into the center core of the rotor and pushing a Harley transmission rolled into it. Amazingly all this was completed without breaking through and the rotor still passes all tests.
    Next I needed a 8mm threaded hole into the crank center for the rotor bolt. Made a drill guide and at first couldn't touch the shaft, finally found a dremel cutter that would work it's way in and got past the hardening. Spent 2-3 days drilling and tapping this one hole slowly working up in bit size till I was there. As soon as a bit stopped cutting it would work harden the shaft and had to get past that. Used 4 different taps pushing as hard as I dared and then going to the next one. Every tap seemed to be sharper in different ways and make a few more degees of rotation. If the Guiness people have a record for the most time spent drilling and tapping a single hole I am a contender.
   It nowhere comes close to the factory grip of the tapered LMIV rotor/shaft connection but with locktite on the final assembly it has a chance. A chance of working perfectly. A chance of the crankshaft snapping like a carrot. A chance of working loose and spinning. And if it all succeeds a chance of being hard to remove if ever needed. Time will tell
    One positive note as a self taught machinist and despite having an excellent lathe I usually have some inaccuracies but sometimes you get lucky and they cancel themselves out. With the rotor held down with the bolt and a dial indicator on the commutator I initially thought my dial indicator was broken but it was just no run-out. Spinning perfectly true has got to improve my chances.
   Now waiting for a donor cam I bought to see if I can adapt the spiral gear to the front of the 1400 cam drive jackshaft both securely enough and acurately enough to function
(https://i.ibb.co/jLVXGM4/1400-cam-cover-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jLVXGM4)

(https://i.ibb.co/hZCZHDV/1400-cam-cover-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hZCZHDV)

(https://i.ibb.co/0Fx0RNH/1400-cam-cover-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0Fx0RNH)

(https://i.ibb.co/BGgypjS/1400-cam-cover-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BGgypjS)

 
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Groover on January 19, 2021, 04:35:32 PM
Very excited about this one. I'm an LM1000 fan, especially the IV and can't wait to see this. I didn't catch it in your notes, but are you widening the rear as well or are you just swapping the engine? Either way, sounds like a great project and thank you for sharing it with us here.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on January 19, 2021, 06:46:34 PM
 Negative on the wider tire for now just want to get it together and "sorted". If I am successful and enthused enough who knows what else I will do later. Thanks for the interest
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on January 21, 2021, 05:44:49 PM
 I received the V-50 donor cam I bought to harvest the tach drive gear from on Tuesday and here is what I have done to allow the 1400 motor to drive my original big white tach.
   Due to the play in the threads getting "0" run out was not going to happen and even if I did it might have varied next time it went together. Initially at 50 ft lbs it was about .008" but with the cover on I could turn it over and the pinion gear always had play. I just did the official final torquing and it dropped to .004-.005" run out so I am happy. I also had to ensure that the blind nut was properly tightening against the gear and not contacting the shaft end.
    Not something I expect anyone to ever copy but I guess if you wanted to make a non tach drive cam drive your tach this is one way. One more yet to be proven mod. I always tell myself with these sort of things that I will  keep an eye on what I have done but if it seems to work I usually don't see it again until I'm back inside that area.
     The 1/4" mild steel plate is welded to the nut with TIG using silicone bronze rod (basically TIG brazing) and the spiral gear is a tight fit in the plate and silver soldered.
(https://i.ibb.co/JxvTsmn/tach-drive-004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JxvTsmn)

(https://i.ibb.co/vYm2b0m/tach-drive-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vYm2b0m)

(https://i.ibb.co/rQPZJK5/tach-drive-006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rQPZJK5)
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Rick4003 on January 22, 2021, 06:47:43 AM
That looks very nice and neat solution to ad a tacho drive. What settings did you use on the TIG braze? And what type(brand) of filler did you use?
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on January 22, 2021, 10:37:31 AM
  Hi, I don't know the brand, I have had a bundle of it for years I got from work. It has no tags or markings and looks very similar to regular mild steel copper coated tig rod. Set your welder for steel straight dc and use roughly the same amperage settings or a  little less. Control the heat with the foot pedal using enough to make the rod flow but not melting the parent metal. Very much like the difference between gas welding and gas brazing because that's exactly what you are doing Brazing. Tons of good you-tube videos on it. For something like I just did it's great as it is very forgiving and the cad or zinc on the nut doesn't mess you up like it can with tig welding. Here is a picture of a silicon bronze rod
(https://i.ibb.co/5GSkJMz/rod-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5GSkJMz)
 side by side with a steel rod with the silicone bronze on the left. easy to mix them up if both are near your welder but  you can see the difference when you look close. If not sure only the steel is magnetic.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Groover on January 22, 2021, 07:20:03 PM
Does your SE have the ZD box with the straight cut gears? If so, have you had any issues during the 180,000 Km?
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on January 22, 2021, 08:41:42 PM
Hi, I will try again I had this almost done and it vanished. Anyhow, I bought the bike brand new in early 88 and it was definitely the red/white
   SE with black eng and trans. There was no official distributor in Canada then and it was "Euro spec" with the sleeker turn signals, Euro jetting, and slight differences in the switch gear as well. I bought the complete earlier bodywork 86? from a racer and run that now.
     It had a standard 5 speed which got a progressively noisy 5th gear when it was getting up in miles and I re-did as required then and a few years back it seemed noisy again but I went through it and everything looked OK. Since then I found the rear drive pinion  getting loose and took care of that but didn't change the gears hoping they would find a new happy spot. It's staying about the same noise wise but the 1400 might finish it off.  Last year I put a very low mileage 02 trans in and although it was a vast improvement being the new style shifting apparently the gear noise remains so no doubt rear drive.
     I keep hearing that the SE's were straight cut close ratio but considered it an urban legend. Even my owners handbook which lists the ratios confirms they are all standard 5 speed.  The bike illustrated in my owners manual is also the red/white scheme
    Are not all red/white 87's SE's ? Do the 2 you own have the straight gears?
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Groover on January 23, 2021, 06:58:29 PM
I think all the red/white '87 models with black drivetrain are SEs, and I believe the same red/white trim was used in the European models for '86, but unfinished drivetrain and helical gears. Both mine have the ZD box with the straight cut gears with the tall first gear and closer ratio between them. The gearboxes are stamped with a serial number. Mine both start with ZD97xxx. The serial number is under the battery tray, right behind the starter solenoid area on the gearbox case.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on January 23, 2021, 10:36:53 PM
 Mine is T 955xx and definitely helical and standard ratios. Another difference from the others I have seen is there are no schrader valves on top of the forks for an air charge. I have seen SE's with and without these valves. Could be the European model differences. Either way my first gear seems high enough for me especially in recent years not using it consistently enough to get smooth with it's not too progressive clutch. It takes me till usually the 3rd day on it for it to feel normal to me.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Rick4003 on January 24, 2021, 08:41:19 AM
  Hi, I don't know the brand, I have had a bundle of it for years I got from work. It has no tags or markings and looks very similar to regular mild steel copper coated tig rod. Set your welder for steel straight dc and use roughly the same amperage settings or a  little less. Control the heat with the foot pedal using enough to make the rod flow but not melting the parent metal. Very much like the difference between gas welding and gas brazing because that's exactly what you are doing Brazing. Tons of good you-tube videos on it. For something like I just did it's great as it is very forgiving and the cad or zinc on the nut doesn't mess you up like it can with tig welding. Here is a picture of a silicon bronze rod
(https://i.ibb.co/5GSkJMz/rod-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5GSkJMz)
 side by side with a steel rod with the silicone bronze on the left. easy to mix them up if both are near your welder but  you can see the difference when you look close. If not sure only the steel is magnetic.

Thanks, I have some brazing rod from ebay that was labled as being for TIG brazing, but I have had limited success with it. First I tried DC and then AC, but it doesn't seem to work that well. I don't have a pedal yet, but have just assembled all the parts to make one. (Kemppi wants a extraordiary price for the original one  :shocked:) It's pretty simple really, did a mock up on a bread board and it worked well. 1. 10KOhm pot meter + 1 micro switch. That's all thats in it. The interesting part is just turning the pot meter via the pedal. But that should be easy to firgure out.

My rod also looks almost identical to normal steel wire, more copper colored than what I have seen the Youtube guys are using. I probably just needs to play around with it a bit to figure it out.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Groover on January 24, 2021, 01:30:08 PM
Both mine have this type of cartridge. There is still a bit of mystery out there on these SE models. Mine are both in need of work to get them back on the road, eventually I'll get to them. Looking forward to your project. Didn't intend to side track the thread.
(https://i.ibb.co/47DzLGT/45323576-52-CE-45-E0-883-F-13012-C14-D5-B0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/47DzLGT)




Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on January 24, 2021, 02:14:37 PM
  Here are some updates hopefully more pictures than text and I will try to insert the pictures with their description above. It is very close to going together waiting now for a front cover gasket to do the final assembly and fit the ignition to the front of the alternator. I did some trial fitting of the lower rails which is mostly what I will be showing here.
   You can see where there were 4 lugs 2 on each side that are right where the frame rails need to go. The 2 on the left were higher and I had trimmed them already and the R. H. ones I thought would clear but I had to take a little off the top of the rear one. You can also see where the R.H. lower rail joins the frame needed some trimming of the webs on the crankcase. Also trimming to allow a wrench to fit the nut at the same frame junction. Right below that frame junction is the banjo fitting for the oil outlet to the cooler. For this I had to punch a hole through both frame sections. Really 1/2 a hole in each not all that easy but turned out OK. For anyone asking if I reinforced the frame for the 1400 I guess the answer is no I actually weakened it.
(https://i.ibb.co/yW8zrHH/fitting-lower-frame-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yW8zrHH)

(https://i.ibb.co/qRW1Qmy/fitting-lower-frame-011.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qRW1Qmy)

(https://i.ibb.co/T2nmgVj/fitting-lower-frame-012.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T2nmgVj)

(https://i.ibb.co/XX7pb1P/fitting-lower-frame-008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XX7pb1P)
 
(https://i.ibb.co/q9YGn3c/fitting-lower-frame-014.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q9YGn3c)

(https://i.ibb.co/Pxszdm7/fitting-lower-frame-015.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Pxszdm7)


   Noticed a broken fin on the sump I had never seen but found a picture of the engine the day I received it that shows it arrived like that. No big deal just a little blending with mini belt sander. Can't believe it took so long to see but of course the engine sits there on a rag and your looking from above.
(https://i.ibb.co/sqbTgzz/fitting-lower-frame-016.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sqbTgzz)

     The back of the engine seems very straight forward. I fitted my Raceco lightened flywheel and confirmed my timing marks on the flywheel with a degree wheel. The trans is a very low mileage 02 I put in the bike last year and because it has the updated internals I can use a late model starter. The neutral switch relocation on the 02 trans allows this to clear the solenoid. The photos show the starter on my original trans case vs on the wrinkle finished 02
(https://i.ibb.co/NT1rQ2Q/fitting-lower-frame-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NT1rQ2Q)

(https://i.ibb.co/5TYwsq7/fitting-lower-frame-006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5TYwsq7)

     I have always split the eng and trans on the ground lifting the frame and front end up while rolling it ahead. Now that I have a lift I did the trans last year on the lift. I realized too late that with the wheel clamped at the front I needed to move the engine back as I raised the frame. This was unexpected and awkward. This time I made a little dolly on wheels for the eng/trans and put a hook in the ceiling and this worked perfectly. I always try to come up with something that can be done by I person.
(https://i.ibb.co/Jtt2VjS/fitting-lower-frame-009.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jtt2VjS)

(https://i.ibb.co/8YttsJB/fitting-lower-frame-010.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8YttsJB)

image upload (https://imgbb.com/)

  Lastly here is a little tip that is not of my creation but  some tip I saw years back in some magazine. I'm sure most of you have seen this before but if not and you are tired of punching yourself in the face, of gouging paint, and skinning knuckles do this. If the side/centerstand or whatever is installed just extend it and push thin washers between the coils and raise the stand and the spring is now loose. If the spring is off already it's safer to set up something on your vice or whatever and extend it and do the same. I know 1 person who lost an eye doing snowmobile exhaust springs.
(https://i.ibb.co/d04NLKZ/fitting-lower-frame-013.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d04NLKZ)

upload images (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Dave Swanson on January 26, 2021, 07:09:34 AM
I like your idea of the pulley.  I might steal that one day. 

And thanks for the reminder of using washers on the springs.   I read that too years ago, but I haven't remembered it in time to help me out so far.   :laugh:
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on January 28, 2021, 05:07:54 PM
  Very frustrating, I was almost done this post and lost everything but that's me and computers. Anyway I got the front cover gasket yesterday and am making great progress.
    After countless trial fittings the front cover is on hopefully to stay. The tach drive tests good with no tight spots and the rotor and stator  are also both on again hopefully for good.
     The picture is not clear but the rotor is slightly ahead relative to the stator but the brushes are fully on the commutator so it's fine.
      The Raceco lightened flywheel is on with a fresh clutch and the timing marks confirmed. You can see the timing pointer I transferred from my old engine. This is needed because the lightened flywheel is too far in from the timing hole for accuracy.
      The Elektronik Sachse ignition is in place and ready to static time which I was going to do out of the bike but looks so dead simple I will do it in the frame.
     At the start of this I said how pricey the ignition was but if the 1400 conversion was a fail I would use it in the old LMIV engine. Unfortunately the most likely failure will be the alternator and if that was to happen it probably would be goodbye ignition. We'll see what happens.
   With most things taking longer than predicted I said 10 days ago I was a couple of weeks from fitting it to the frame and that should happen tomorrow. Then I will see what other obstacles I didn't foresee.
    I'm pretty sure the gas tank will fit and it looks like the gas taps and throttle cables and top breathers will have to live together in close proximity but can't sort that till it's in the frame. Exhaust will be easy to make function and hopefully I can make it look right but I'll take what I get looks wise until I have proven the rest.
    I made some little reinforcing do-dads to keep the plastic front alternator cover from cracking at
(https://i.ibb.co/VmNmqb6/front-cover-and-ign-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VmNmqb6)

(https://i.ibb.co/wJ2Zj2Y/front-cover-and-ign-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wJ2Zj2Y)

(https://i.ibb.co/sv4LzX5/front-cover-and-ign-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sv4LzX5)

(https://i.ibb.co/KzLd8MQ/front-cover-and-ign-006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KzLd8MQ)

(https://i.ibb.co/881P5Dw/front-cover-and-ign-007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/881P5Dw)
 the holes but I will probable do a little post in general about that
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Huzo on January 28, 2021, 05:23:48 PM
I have a subtle feeling that you’re gunna’ fit right in here... :popcorn:
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Rick4003 on January 29, 2021, 01:17:10 AM
Good idea with the pointer for the flywheel, I think I will steal that. Now I finally got my milling machine pushed into the workshop, so flywheel lightening is coming up soon! :)

Looks good with the rest of the project! Definitly is inspirering.
 
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on January 29, 2021, 04:42:44 PM
  The engine went in with no surprises so now mocking up the exhaust and fitting the tank. Reasonably happy with how the exh. will look. I can't easily change the 1400 headers because of the double wall but I always wanted the Bubs to have a bit of  up-sweep and that will happen now. I won't go any further on that until it's more together to make sure there is nothing else to consider. I kind of like the fat header look and the bigger engine.
     Where I made the hole for the oil banjo is good but need to cut and weld the banjo to kick it inboard slightly, no big deal.
    The fairing lowers will need to be cut just ahead of the valve covers and figure out a small rear mounting tab for them.
     The tank is closer to the inside of the cyls. than I predicted but fairly hard twisting on the rubber mounts still doesn't contact anything I can raise the back of the tank 1/4" if I want without affecting the seat's fit.
     Like I expected throttle cables, gas taps, and breather are close together but seem quite OK,
(https://i.ibb.co/WtmDsY4/in-the-frame-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WtmDsY4) (https://i.ibb.co/X3BWBKL/in-the-frame-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X3BWBKL) (https://i.ibb.co/8gymG0q/in-the-frame-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8gymG0q) (https://i.ibb.co/qmKszS8/in-the-frame-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qmKszS8) (https://i.ibb.co/QPrxPB3/in-the-frame-006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QPrxPB3) (https://i.ibb.co/Y04twLV/in-the-frame-007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y04twLV) (https://i.ibb.co/q0bFfP4/in-the-frame-008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q0bFfP4) (https://i.ibb.co/WWTTsRb/in-the-frame-009.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WWTTsRb)
stock cables should work and change the straight breather outlets to a tight 90.
     Now that there is no upper exh. crossover I can sort cooler mounting. I bought 2 different coolers so I'll have options.
     I popped the pinion out of my rear drive and no surprise really it's on the way out. I'll see what ebay has on offer. prefer to stay 7/33 but could live with 8/33.
      I can make the bike complete with the bad one and change it out later.
      There is virtually nothing to do wiring wise except hooking up the new ignition and a little for the AFR gauge I will run till it's sorted.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Groover on January 29, 2021, 07:37:04 PM
Going to an 8/33 might actually be better in your configuration. The 7/33 could be fun, but thinking it might be a little short...

Le Mans 1000:
(https://i.ibb.co/k6wSpss/A5627-AA1-2-E1-E-4-CFF-8176-164778-E4-F79-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k6wSpss)

California 1400:
(https://i.ibb.co/4Py6wnF/C687-FB0-C-ED2-E-4629-A3-FC-CB0-EF1456979.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4Py6wnF)


Specs pulled from: https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/ (https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/)
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on February 20, 2021, 11:10:37 AM
  That was a long stretch of not seeming to get anywhere but I guess I was. Picking away at multiple items and not completing anything. Finally I am moving forward. The pictures show the collection of fittings to feed oil to the cooler and from there to the heads and the fittings that will be for the breather plumbing. Also is shown the oil cooler mounting system that was very time consuming to make.
    The congested area of the crankcase breather outlet, fuel taps, and throttle cables wasn't going to work so I modified the outlets and added 90 degree fittings to clear the taps and ordered a set of carb tops from MG cycle to allow cables directly into the tops. When they arrive I will see if I can modify my stock cables to work or will need to make all new cables. 
     I had mentioned that my rear pinion gear was on the way out and bought a 8/33 box on ebay that turned out to have excellent gears but a bad pinion spline. I modified the coupler with a double slot and welded it on. I was expecting that cutting the slot would be difficult but it cut easily on my mill nowhere near as much hardening as expected. One more questionable repair who's success remains to be seen. I bought a second 7/33 box as well that is very nice so I have a backup. My trans is from an 02 and because it was for a 8/33 rear drive it had a different speedo gear and I had to put my original one in to get it right so now with an 8/33 I will put the gear that came with the 02 trans back in and should be good. I don't have them in front of me but I know there is a 1 tooth difference and you can run either with the gear in the trans depending on the final drive ratio.
     
(https://i.ibb.co/MDj6tJP/misc-and-trans-damage-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MDj6tJP) (https://i.ibb.co/gJn5bVs/misc-and-trans-damage-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gJn5bVs) (https://i.ibb.co/P1dkvwS/misc-and-trans-damage-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/P1dkvwS) (https://i.ibb.co/VgK8HnD/misc-and-trans-damage-004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VgK8HnD) (https://i.ibb.co/PQBLtyy/misc-and-trans-damage-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PQBLtyy) (https://i.ibb.co/ZdWH1qy/oil-lines-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZdWH1qy) (https://i.ibb.co/CmSmhN1/oil-lines-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CmSmhN1) (https://i.ibb.co/rMRbtMy/oil-lines-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rMRbtMy) (https://i.ibb.co/jGDRxKb/oil-lines-004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jGDRxKb) (https://i.ibb.co/G3gPqkJ/oil-lines-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G3gPqkJ)
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on February 23, 2021, 10:22:19 AM
    I don't count the new ignition or AFR gauge wiring as changes to the bike's wiring as they are both independent from the harness as far as I'm concerned. The only actual wiring change is the oil pressure sensor in the 1400 motor is a different connector than the one in the LMIV. I could have swapped sensors but changed the connector instead.
     Just before I stopped for lunch yesterday I was putting the rear wheel on and ran into a glitch. The 8/33 rear drive I am using needs to have the spacer shortened by .220". I managed to make a press in plug so I could chuck the rear drive in my lathe and very carefully shorten the spacer without dissembling the drive. The plug was not as tight a fit as it needed so I used locktite to secure it and it held fine, I pressed it out when done.
    It just fit my 11" swing lathe with the studs removed. I only turned it at 55 rpm due to the imbalance and took .010" per pass. 22 passes later it was good. I was amused to see the picture I took while machining it. Digital cameras never capture motion properly and it looks like I am spinning it at 1000 rpm. with the obvious imbalance that would have been disastrous. In the end the wheel went on just before supper instead of lunch so it wasn't too big of a setback.
    The other picture shows the 2 different speedo gears I mentioned last post. The original one from the LMIV with the 7/33 ratio is 11 teeth and the 10 tooth one is what came in the 02 trans I put in last year which is back in now to match the 8/33 box.
    Having ran the 11 tooth gear for over 1000 miles last year it is now confirmed to me that either gear works fine against the one inside the trans.  I hope the 8/33 will not prove too high for my tastes. I have no doubt the 1400 motor will pull it with no problem but I still want to be able to run 5th without lugging at normal hwy. speeds.
    I got the last oil line pinch clamps yesterday so hopefuly I can make good progress tying up several loose ends before the next surprise
(https://i.ibb.co/P9XLQ8T/update-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/P9XLQ8T)

(https://i.ibb.co/XFgfbtY/update-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XFgfbtY)

(https://i.ibb.co/6mfgGGj/update-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6mfgGGj)

(https://i.ibb.co/2W6Y6t4/update-004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2W6Y6t4)
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on February 23, 2021, 04:01:27 PM
  Whoa this is 2 progress reports in one day, you gotta love momentum when you get it back. These photos show the cooler installation and lines which took more time that I can believe to come up with fittings lines and routing. I am now very happy with the result and it all works together great. The tach cable is unaffected and the alternator wiring also is unaffected. Most importantly is the alternator cover is still removable without disturbing the cooler or lines and since I will be setting up the new ignition in there that's perfect. Working in that area is always claustrophobic and even on the lift is not my favorite spot.
   The 1400 motor has basically a double oil pump and the forward set of gerotors is dedicated to directly feed the cooler and from the cooler the feed is
(https://i.ibb.co/YBMK57H/cooler-and-lines-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YBMK57H)

(https://i.ibb.co/6w6Rtdd/cooler-and-lines-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6w6Rtdd)

(https://i.ibb.co/nQMFBz4/cooler-and-lines-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nQMFBz4)

(https://i.ibb.co/x1M7KNR/cooler-and-lines-004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x1M7KNR)

(https://i.ibb.co/28KBfnq/cooler-and-lines-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/28KBfnq)
to the cylinders,cams etc. so the hottest  parts get direct oil from the cooler, a very smart design I think.
    The cooler I picked was an actual Guzzi one from an 07 Breva 1200 S.
  By the end of the day I should also be able to show how I am running the breather plumbing as well
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on February 23, 2021, 06:30:28 PM
  Okay, here is how the crankcase will breath I hope. when the LMIV was fairly new I realized that I  didn't want the moisture laden crankcase fumes rusting my frame from the inside and I didn't want to return the oil to the engine that had been through the frame. I basically flushed the frame and sprayed oil into it and then blanked  it off and tried to duplicate the breathing externally. It took a few tweaks to get it where nothing was venting on the bike. The little "puke can" I made has a stand pipe and holds 4 ounces of oil. I drain it every couple of days on a trip every 1000 miles or so and as long as it doesn't fill up nothing escapes. I might add 1/2 qt.between changes.  You can see how the 1400 engine vents from both heads at the end of the cam with a sweet centrifugal separator. I took a 3/8 hose from both of these tee'd into 1/2 to a high point towards the neck and split it back into 2 3/8 lines one going forward and down to the forward frame junction and one going back to the "puke can" below the trans.  Any playing like this with breathers can be experimental and I will see how it goes and how much if any gets to the can and sometimes it is as simple as finding a "happy" oil level for an engine. I worked 40 years as an aircraft mechanic and saw many examples on both pistons and turbines where you could add every flight trying to keep the engine filled to max of let it get down a little and hardly ever add.
    So this will be a good starting point and maybe a good finishing point.
(https://i.ibb.co/BKHJSw7/breather-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BKHJSw7)

(https://i.ibb.co/DzRJPrs/breather-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DzRJPrs)

(https://i.ibb.co/cgcpWtZ/breather-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cgcpWtZ)

(https://i.ibb.co/mbLY81Z/breather-004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mbLY81Z)
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Turin on February 23, 2021, 10:31:01 PM
WOW! I love that you are keeping the factory look instead of building another cafe racer.
I think the SE's were a USA thing. My theory is that they had 100 straight cut gearboxes and figured, " lets give them to the Americans and charge them an extra pile of Lire !"  ( theory pulled straight out of my ass)
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on February 24, 2021, 10:14:23 PM
 Hey Turin, Back in 91 I sent my seat to Corbins and it came back done so bad I returned it. It got lost and fortunately I had pictures of the seat I was unhappy with and they agreed to redo it but I had to supply another base. I bought one from Harpers and had it sent to Corbin but spring was fast approaching and I wanted a back-up. I had met Dave Hull and his wife at a rally in Colorado that year and remembered he had a SE racer. I called and bought the red seat which I still have as a spare. I don't know for sure but depending on how many SE's went through his shop it might have been from the one you ended up with. Small world for  sure. The replacement did arrive in time from Corbin's done perfectly this time.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on February 25, 2021, 04:55:17 PM
  Got the fairing lowers trimmed to fit and sorted out the mounting. Slightly more finicky than before to install but they don't need to be disturbed to check the valves now. The exhaust needs the final joint tacked in place. I think the pipes look okay but they do hang a little low.  Some things need the bike on the ground and standing further back to really appraise. The fat double wall 1400 headers and the distinctive valve covers will be what catches the eye of the few who will realize it is something different.
(https://i.ibb.co/s6qxddf/fairing-lowers-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s6qxddf)

(https://i.ibb.co/48crzm3/fairing-lowers-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/48crzm3)

(https://i.ibb.co/ctr95Gn/fairing-lowers-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ctr95Gn)

(https://i.ibb.co/W5ZGhyj/fairing-lowers-004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W5ZGhyj)
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Groover on February 25, 2021, 05:21:15 PM
Looking really good!
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: huub on February 26, 2021, 07:07:46 AM
great project! personally i would have a set of single skinned pipes bent , to have the pipes in the original position ,
i actually like the gold/blue of well used stainless pipes.
but hey , you need to compromise somewhere.
the end result should be a blast to ride!
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on March 01, 2021, 02:01:06 PM
 "The exhaust need the final joint tacked in place"  Well that was the understatement of the year. 1st when moving my welder close to the bike my argon bottle fell over and broke the regulator. Got that going and positioned myself to tack the final joint where the short section I had made met up with the 1400 header. Because I had cut ahead of the factory weld on the 1400 pipe I should have realized I had 2 unconnected layers of stainless. the inner layer didn't want to accept the heat and allow the rod to flow and more pedal caused the thin outer layer to recede and made a disgusting mess. I definitely could have saved it but wasn't totally sure I liked how it was looking. Finally I said screw it and scrapped the 1400 header plan. Good thing I got them very cheap. Their only contribution is I salvaged the mounting flanges which are much better than the plates Bub had. These are nicely vented to encourage good air flow in an important area.
   Next I started hacking my Bub  headers up. I removed and capped the upper balance tube which had to go because of the cooler and machined 2 sleeves to make the upper end correct for the 1400 engine's ports and to fit the mounting flange. These were drilled as shown in 4 spots and rosette welded to the pipes. I didn't have any 1-5/8 bends but just used 1-3/4 sleeved on top of the joints which will be fine and not very noticeable once header paint is on. The right pipe was simply cut and extended an in. or so but the L.H. one was going to be too close to the frame and needed a little joggle added to make it good. I added the bung for the AFR gauge and they are done except for painting.
     I really didn't want to modify the LMIV Bub header but you gotta work with what you have and I am very happy how they turned out. A bonus is both header flanges can be removed even slipping over the AFR bung and that makes painting easier. Also since I had added the Supertrapp tips to the Bubs the centerstand contacted them a little and I was able to kick up the rear of the mufflers and fix this. They are easy enough to put in and off but I will have to bake the header paint good enough to be able to handle them on installation. The first photo shows the 1400 pipes but the rear of the bike is sitting way higher than it should and this hides how low they were at the front. Mostly is to show the comparison between the 2 set-ups. Another bonus is the double wall 1400 pipes weighed slightly over 4 lbs. more.
(https://i.ibb.co/S3p5R7F/exhaust-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S3p5R7F) (https://i.ibb.co/9pLD2R5/exhaust-done-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9pLD2R5) (https://i.ibb.co/HVjrVQx/exhaust-done-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HVjrVQx) (https://i.ibb.co/jGgw9DK/exhaust-done-004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jGgw9DK) (https://i.ibb.co/NLFskH0/exhaust-done-006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NLFskH0) (https://i.ibb.co/smPm59V/exhaust-done-007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/smPm59V) (https://i.ibb.co/b73W0Vk/exhaust-done-008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b73W0Vk) (https://i.ibb.co/3RRdwbJ/exhaust-done-009.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3RRdwbJ)
ostly
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Rick4003 on March 02, 2021, 01:57:02 AM
Glad it turned out nice in the end, In my opinion the new head tubes looks much better than the 1400 headers. They were just too long.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Don G on March 02, 2021, 08:59:02 AM
Yes, the new headers look the part. :thumb: DonG
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on March 02, 2021, 09:08:31 AM
Glad it turned out nice in the end, In my opinion the new head tubes looks much better than the 1400 headers. They were just too long.
     Thanks, even though I never got to see the other pipes with the bike on the ground I think I like these best for sure. I might wrap the first foot or so to keep heat from the cooler but that's to be determined. I realized looking things over that I will need to change the front brake lines to keep them from hitting the cooler on full compression.
     The 1400 pipes would make great wall art if a person painted a full size frontal view of an engine on a piece of plywood and then mounted the pipes protruding out. I just need to learn how to draw.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Jorg66 on March 02, 2021, 11:46:58 AM
Wow, Congrats ,....thats quite something what you created !
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on March 08, 2021, 07:38:01 AM
This beast is going to sound great and haul ass, it already looks the part! Keep it rolling, thank you for taking the time for a build thread!
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on March 14, 2021, 11:24:53 PM
   1st I will say how much I appreciate all the positive comments so far and I realize I should respond to them when they arrive. Many finishing touches have been in progress and suddenly it's getting very close.
    The converting of the PHM 40 Dellortos from side operation to top cables took lots of playing but turned out so good that it looks like it must have been easy. I managed to use of set of original  outer cables I had as spares and made my own brass ends and silver soldered them to inner cables I cut out of some random Yamaha cables I bought for cutting up. The crowded area of throttle cables/fuel taps/breather outlets is just fine now and the fuel taps turned to rotate laterally turned out to be how I should have always had them. They are very stiff to turn and switching to reserve with cold hands was not easy. Now on is down, off straight out, and reserve up. Should be much easier.
(https://i.ibb.co/JQ2j7dg/off-the-lift-008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JQ2j7dg)

(https://i.ibb.co/LYnJR29/off-the-lift-009.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LYnJR29)

     The AFR gauge was easy to to mount using the mirror stem as a location but now that I have actually sat on the bike I see that I need to make a new mount laying it down to match the instruments to be more readable. The part of the mount that actually holds the gauge is for fitting it to another bike I originally got it for so it will always be a 2 piece mount on this bike but should only be on till it is sorted. The harness for it assumes it will be mounted in a school bus or something so I shortened it a bunch but left slack in case I need it on the other bike.
(https://i.ibb.co/M9XCsmF/off-the-lift-006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M9XCsmF)


(https://i.ibb.co/GnSKpNt/off-the-lift-007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GnSKpNt)

     I really like everything about the Elektronik Sasche ignition. Even in the claustrophobic alternator area it is so simple to time. There is of course no backlash being crank mounted and you simply set to R.H. T.D.C. and rotate the trigger disc to align on the corresponding pick-up. The sweet thing is there is a led built into the circuit board on the alternator so you rotate the disc till it goes off and tighten the set screws. Hit the spot perfectly 1st try. The "black box" for it where you can select different curves came with a self adhesive velcro mount and it turned out to have room under the seat where it is very accessible.
(https://i.ibb.co/VTpDsM3/off-the-lift-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VTpDsM3)

(https://i.ibb.co/m475bc1/off-the-lift-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m475bc1)

     You need to add a couple of washers between the alternator cover and the spacer to ensure clearance. I had already made little cups to keep the screws from splitting the cover but knew it would be awkward to assemble with the washers and the ignition harness and of course the oil cooler crowding as well. The simple solution took 5 minutes if you forget the almost 35 years it took me to think of it. I cut the heads off some bolts and made a screwdriver slot so they can hold the spacer and washers in place when the cover is installed. Then you remove them 1 at a time and install the real screws.
(https://i.ibb.co/wSdQ0Fd/off-the-lift-014.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wSdQ0Fd)

(https://i.ibb.co/YT05cRm/off-the-lift-015.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YT05cRm)

    Other than a few more tie wraps under the tank it needs fuel lines and ign. leads to run. I filled my gas can with premium today and filled the sump with exactly 3 litres of Motul10/w60. I have a roller starter set-up I made years back and I ran it on that to confirm oil pressure. It took about 20 or 30 seconds to kill the oil light. ( I hadn't pre-filled the filter ) Now I can see where that puts the level on the dipstick. It went down 1/2" to 5/8"filling the cooler and filter.
     I'm very happy with the look of it on the ground, the engine really jumps out looking large with those top covers. Sitting on it however could have been better. I'm only 6' 1" or maybe 2" but have
(https://i.ibb.co/sbWnnvF/off-the-lift-016.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sbWnnvF)

(https://i.ibb.co/KXhKms4/off-the-lift-017.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KXhKms4)

(https://i.ibb.co/cD9W5tz/off-the-lift-018.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cD9W5tz)

(https://i.ibb.co/SXBd4CY/off-the-lift-019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SXBd4CY)

(https://i.ibb.co/Ms5sLHW/off-the-lift-020.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ms5sLHW)

(https://i.ibb.co/LdyxW1w/off-the-lift-021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LdyxW1w)
disproportionately long legs (36" inseam)so I'm a little tight on the valve covers. Even with the LMIV engine my R.H. knee got hot contacting the cover. I know that's wrong but it was the R.H. , apparently I sit crooked. These should run cooler with their big air gap but remains to be seen. I'm sure I can figure something out if necessary. Also the carbs on the slightly longer straight intakes make me have to use a slightly wider stance when stopped but that is available with my legs.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Rick4003 on March 15, 2021, 03:08:06 AM
That looks very good! Almost like it came from the factory like that :grin:

Soooo, did you start it up yet? Any test rides yet?
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on March 15, 2021, 01:51:38 PM
That looks very good! Almost like it came from the factory like that :grin:

Soooo, did you start it up yet? Any test rides yet?
    Still wrapping up last details and never like to jinx myself with predictions it is a good way to make that last bolt you torque snap off. There are some bikes on the road already but spring roads here suck and I try to hold out for the street cleaners to start. I will put a plate on it shortly so if it runs I can legally test it but still too many unknowns ahead.
   I redid the AFR gauge mount to angle it up for better visibility this morning. I redid the front brake lines to hopefully clear the cooler on full compression of the forks and still trying to get the last of the air bled out. On the lift you can't turn the bars to make sure all cables and harnesses are happy going lock to lock so I need to check that too. The seat was giving problems locking down and I feared I miss-judged the room for the ign. controller but the mechanism just
(https://i.ibb.co/0jgZKdC/arf-mount-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0jgZKdC)

(https://i.ibb.co/02pgGtX/arf-mount-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/02pgGtX)
needed a little lube. It was last lubed in 1987 at the factory so I guess it was due.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on March 16, 2021, 09:37:48 PM
  Wrapped up everything on my list. The ignition leads couldn't come out of the top covers where Guzzi intended as the gas tank is too close so I brought them out the rear outboard. Since I had dual plugs on the LMIV and this engine had some different type of dual plugs I pretty much had to run them. 1st I didn't want to change my coils and 2nd like I said these are dual plug heads. Hard to find much out but as best as I can figure the second plug was only fired when the ECU sensed the need. Being 4 valve heads the main plug is in the center and they put the second one at the extreme edge of the chamber.
(https://i.ibb.co/JHY4fwK/leads-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JHY4fwK)

    Anyways, with that complete only fear and common sense were holding me back so I hit the start button. I had been running an ETX14 battery and figured I would see how it handled things. With the new type starter it seemed pretty good but it was firing but never quite got going and the battery quickly seemed weak. So out to the battery place for an ETX20 but while driving and thinking it seemed to me that the timing might be way off. With the ETX20 it still wouldn't catch and quickly seemed weak as well. Took about a minute of checking my connections at the ign.module box to realize some genius had reversed the coil hook-ups. I had color coded the wires red and green for Port and Starboard and was right at the coils but wrong at the box since I only had enough length to correct it at the coils they are now correct but ass backwards color wise. About 2 revoutions later it ran but with a very high idle and could only run on choke. Not being used to the AFR gauge which was showing a steady 10.0 and the need for chokes I took it to be lean and went from 57 pilots to 62s which were all I had
     Oh Yeah, on a very positive note my much modified alternator clinging to that 1400 crank seems to function just like it did an the LMIV as far as the idiot light and voltmeter are concerned. So that's a win for now.
     Back to the carbs: Hooked up my mercury sticks and got the idle lower and close on the balance. I used to use a colortune before to adjust mixtures and loved it but that option is out so I just set mixture by vacuum and got it running 1/2 decent. The throttles seemed lazy to return but I still wanted a short test ride. The only item not functioning on my stock wiring is the kill switch but I figured if there was a problem I could use the key. Yeah that little flush round knob while wearing snowmobile mitts. Fortunately I got away with it but # 1 on the to do list is sorting the throttle return issue. I had changed to internal light springs when the bike was almost new but was still running the bell-crank tops and they were still slightly heavy but seem very light now so maybe the direct cable feed now changed that. Anyway,need to sort that. Basically too many distractions on my 5 kilometre ride to learn much but considering all that was done for it to be ride-able sort of right away isn't that bad.
    The ignition fires at TDC at start up so swapping the coils means R.H. 90 ATDC and L.H. 90 BTDC. At least that is what I quickly decided either way it had no chance and as well the wasted spark would have been equally out of place
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Groover on March 17, 2021, 10:07:46 AM
I really like how your seat was done, do you have a contact name/place where they did it, and do you think they would be able to make one like it again? Everything else is looking great!
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on March 17, 2021, 10:58:29 AM
 It was a 2 part deal. In an earlier post bottom of page 1 I mentioned how I had Corbin redo the seat on the stock base so they are responsible for the shape. When the Corbin seat started splitting 20+ years later I had a local upholsterer  redo it on the Corbin foam about 5 years back. Bottom line is this doesn't help you because I don't believe Corbin does custom work like this anymore except maybe in person and the local gut who redid it wouldn't have  equipment to do the foam. Also his health wasn't good 5 years back and he was 90% retired then.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on March 17, 2021, 05:38:42 PM
  I found a listing for Dellorto PHM return springs that gave very good dimensions on 3 types Light,Medium,and Heavy. They gave free length,wire size,number of coils, and O.D. Mine were the lightest and of course they would take a long time to get so I made 1/2" spacer blocks to fit under the light springs. Huge improvement but need a little more yet for quick positive throttle returns. Took a very enjoyable 35 km loop today at a much better time of day and am extremely happy overall. I really expected it to be very off jetting wise but it's well within the ballpark and totally drive able as is so I can ride it and make small changes as I go. For a starting point I had raised the needles 1 notch and gone from a 140 main to a 150 and then yesterday I went from a 57 pilot to a 62. I'm a little rich overall so might undo some of those changes yet. I really think I could have put the carbs on exactly as they were on the LMIV and started there. It always ran good and every time I changed something I started  out with what I had been running and hardly ever needed to change it more than slightly.
   The timing on the Elektronik Sasche is 0 Degrees at start on all curves until 400 RPM and then on the curve I started with jumps to 8 degrees till 1000 and then advances to full advance of 28 degrees at 3000. Initially this feels to me like a keeper. Why other aftermarket ignitions done't do that 0 degree for start is beyond me. All the Harley ones seem to start at 10 or 15 and need to have 1 or 2 rotations before firing to let the starter gain momentum. I think every engine on the planet could start at 0 quite happily.
   My LMIV was still running the original Bosch starter and with the ETX14 battery never felt like there was much to spare. With the ETX20 and the new starter and this ignition this just starts right now.
     When I bought the engine on Ebay out of El Paso the story was that it had a hard to locate very minor oil leak that the dealer had made 1 or 2 expensive attempts to locate and finally M.G. gave him a new engine and never asked for it back so eventually he listed it. I take such stories with a grain of salt but offered $800 and he took it with very reasonable shipping. It still had the clutch on and you could tell it had been off and the rear bearing flange had definite non factory sealer around the perimeter so his story seemed legitimate after all. So far it sounds great and has 0 signs of leaking.
    The 8/33 also seems fine. I don't expect to go to the dragstrip and it launches as good as ever but might not see 5th for a while.
    It certainly feels strong and pulls effortlessly. I,m sure when I do open it up it will not be spectacular higher up as it is tuned for torque on a cruiser but initially it sure meets my expectations.
    Here is the most complete photo yet even with the bags on. I have brackets for them on all my bikes and love how they look which is good because I can't do without them. I used to have various ways to carry everything for a 2 week 2 up tour but once home had to carry my lunch to work inside my t-shirt. These little 21 litre bags make it a true grocery chaser with style.
(https://i.ibb.co/wMxgFHY/bags-on-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wMxgFHY)

    There were some random very bad noises at first but raising the rear of the tank 1/4"solved that. It is amazing how close the lower sides of the tank come to the cyls. about 1/8" tops so got lucky there.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / running and riding
Post by: leroy_can on March 18, 2021, 09:32:38 AM
    Wow,I announce it runs and suddenly I get promoted to Sunday Rider,I hope the next level isn't Wannabe. Going to add a little more shim to the throttle springs this morning. I call this weather a false spring but it's here to stay for a few days apparently. One thing I forgot to mention is the tach with my homemade drive mod is working great. Initially I put in exactly 3 litres of oil starting with a very empty engine,filter, and cooler. Probably a little low but good for now. I have the stock dip-stick and one from my LMIV I got from Harper's years back. It's the 2 piece one with 2 o-rings and if I can find new o-rings today I will use it and see where it reads with a known quantity and mark it. Initially it looks like my old mark will be very close if I go to 3-1/2 litres which I think will be good. As opposed to an actual California 1400 my readings will be on a centerstand and my cooler is bottom feed but I'm not sure if it holds all it's oil when shut down or  how long it takes to drain back. since it would have to go back through the pump I expect it will hold for a long time. Both coolers I bought to try had red oil in them and now I know it must have been Motul, I had assumed it to be Red-line. The oil will be easy to see on the steel Harper's stick
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: usedtobefast on March 18, 2021, 10:28:05 AM
This just seems amazing to me!  It is also on the edge of what I can even understand and comprehend.  :grin:

So the motor is a modern 1400, the transmission is from what?  A 2002 ?  And then the driveshaft/swingarm are original parts to the LMIV?

I just assumed once you went 1400 motor ... that meant a matching big block transmission (housing and gears and shifting forks, etc) ... and then that meant a CARC swingarm, shaft, and final drive.   I didn't realize you could mix and match like what I think you did.

Did that require a lot of work, machining, etc to sort out? 

Very impressive.

And from what I've read about 1400's, seems issues are related to electrical, dash, sensors, engine management stuff ...  and seems you passed on all that!   :thumb: 
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / running and riding
Post by: leroy_can on March 18, 2021, 11:46:06 AM
  Thanks, Yes there was lots of things done to make the front cover with the engine mount lug fit and to adapt the LMIV Bosch alternator. The 02 trans was one I had put in the LMIV last year and was a 100% bolt in behind the LMIV and then to fit it to the back of the 1400 motor was also 100% bolt in using the LMIV flywheel and complete clutch as well. As far as I know all 5 speeds are interchangeable and the  02 was the first year to have some improvements internally to improve the shifting. It,s big attraction to me was it had maybe 10% of the miles as my original. Unknown to me at the time was that with the relocated neutral switch on the 02 I can now run the later starter from the 1400 and there new ones are cheap and plentiful on Ebay. I bought another spare super low mileage one this winter from an 03 and although it is like new it turned out to have a thinner clutch input spline for the single plate clutch but that's a easy enough swap if I ever need to run it. If you go back through through this thread, pretty good details of everything done is there for sure in the text and quite a bit in the pictures.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: lucky phil on March 18, 2021, 07:07:45 PM
I congratulate you and appreciate the engineering and effort thats gone into this project but the original bike has lost it's proportion now for mine. Like stuffing a big block V8 into a 4 cylinder run about. Any design elegance the original LM had is completely lost. The mufflers dont help as they were and always will be a styling abomination on a motorcycle. I sometimes can't believe how little focus people put into the decision of what mufflers they use from a styling perspective. They form a major part of the look of a motorcycle and can be make or break from that perspective.

Ciao   
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on March 18, 2021, 09:23:05 PM
I congratulate you and appreciate the engineering and effort thats gone into this project but the original bike has lost it's proportion now for mine. Like stuffing a big block V8 into a 4 cylinder run about. Any design elegance the original LM had is completely lost. The mufflers dont help as they were and always will be a styling abomination on a motorcycle. I sometimes can't believe how little focus people put into the decision of what mufflers they use from a styling perspective. They form a major part of the look of a motorcycle and can be make or break from that perspective.

Ciao
    Thanks? I guess you missed the part about wanting to make as much from the existing bike work and took the easiest/cheapest way out wherever possible since the whole project was never a guaranteed success. I guess I actually destroyed all design elegance in 1990 when I bought the BUB HYPER exhaust. I did always prefer the upswept Conti look but back then liked the part about keeping hot pipes well clear of soft bags which were prone to shifting if much imbalance happened.
   As far as your Big Block V8 into a 4 cyl runabout analogy I think it's a little over the top. Your example refers to 500 or so horsepower replacing 100 or so with a resulting vehicle impractical for anything more than the occasional Cruise night. In my case I have replaced 80 or so with 100 or so (once sorted) and once hopefully proven I fully expect to be able to drive it anywhere the LMIV could have gone. Mostly when I saw the engine available and he accepted my offer I enjoyed challenging myself with the project.
   Just to show what it used to be as last run as the LMIV here is a picture. Also to show that I believe I am most capable of building a good looking exhaust hear is a little NGC of a bike I have owned since 1975. The pipe on it was 100% built by me in 1993 with the exception of the rear portion of the Supertrapp and the 2-1 transition was taken from another unknown swap meet pipe. As modified as it is it is also functional and although I finally made it electric start last winter I rode it as far as Trail BC. 2 years ago at age 65 when it was still kick start.
  Winnipeg to Creston B.C. (1600kms/1000mi ) in 2 days which is not too shabby for it or me.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZV93p5m/everything-008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZV93p5m)

(https://i.ibb.co/tXmpzN9/everything-130.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tXmpzN9)
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: lucky phil on March 18, 2021, 10:07:20 PM
    Thanks? I guess you missed the part about wanting to make as much from the existing bike work and took the easiest/cheapest way out wherever possible since the whole project was never a guaranteed success. I guess I actually destroyed all design elegance in 1990 when I bought the BUB HYPER exhaust. I did always prefer the upswept Conti look but back then liked the part about keeping hot pipes well clear of soft bags which were prone to shifting if much imbalance happened.
   As far as your Big Block V8 into a 4 cyl runabout analogy I think it's a little over the top. Your example refers to 500 or so horsepower replacing 100 or so with a resulting vehicle impractical for anything more than the occasional Cruise night. In my case I have replaced 80 or so with 100 or so (once sorted) and once hopefully proven I fully expect to be able to drive it anywhere the LMIV could have gone. Mostly when I saw the engine available and he accepted my offer I enjoyed challenging myself with the project.
   Just to show what it used to be as last run as the LMIV here is a picture. Also to show that I believe I am most capable of building a good looking exhaust hear is a little NGC of a bike I have owned since 1975. The pipe on it was 100% built by me in 1993 with the exception of the rear portion of the Supertrapp and the 2-1 transition was taken from another unknown swap meet pipe. As modified as it is it is also functional and although I finally made it electric start last winter I rode it as far as Trail BC. 2 years ago at age 65 when it was still kick start.
  Winnipeg to Creston B.C. (1600kms/1000mi ) in 2 days which is not too shabby for it or me.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZV93p5m/everything-008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZV93p5m)

(https://i.ibb.co/tXmpzN9/everything-130.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tXmpzN9)


My analogy wasn't actually aimed at the power more the aesthetics. The relationship between the engine and the rest of the bike looks unbalanced. The engine is dominating which to me skews it towards a "hotrod" look as apposed to a harmonious integrated design/style. No matter really just not my idea of a balanced design concept. I appreciate your fabricating skills although I think I would have sought to the modify the oil fitting before the frame but sometimes you need to be there physically to appreciate the challenge. I've never liked the look of those disk silencers from day 1. I remember them coming out in the 70's but with another brand name which alludes me? A set of nice pipes might even balance the look a bit. Something with a modest rise and reverse cone shaped. The std mufflers didn't look totally terrible on those things. A friend of mine had a Mk4 which he picked up at the Factory in Mandello in 84 and we met up there me on my BMW and we rode to The IOM togehter and back to Mandello again.

Ciao
       
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on March 19, 2021, 09:13:04 AM
I think it looks great! If the engine "dominates", it's only because it's black, IMO.  :thumb:
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on March 21, 2021, 03:30:11 PM
  Well, rainy cool Sunday but it's been nice otherwise and now have 250 kms of test riding in.  Still mostly good news. I bumped the throttle spring spacers up to 5/8" which is max without coil bind but still not enough for good return. While playing at the carbs I noticed 1 accelerator pump was dead and it turned out to be the diaphragm confirmed by swapping L. to R. I contacted Wolfgang Harter the Laverda guy in B.C. and he had both the heavy throttle springs and the pump diaphragms so should have them soon. I tried turning both pumps off but it didn't like that so I made the good one operational but now that it was on the R.H. side it still wasn't right . For some unknown it seems that if I can only have one accel pump it needs to be the left? No matter as both should be back on line shortly.
     Yesterday I thought something had failed but it was just hitting reserve much sooner than expected but maybe the tank had been not as full as I thought. Then by the time I selected reserve with mitts on it was too late and I coasted to a stop. I was thinking trailer but hit the button and rode away.
     I got new  o-rings for the pull out dipstick and have it in now. With the original 3 litres I had put in after sitting overnight on the center stand it reads 1/2 low to the full mark from my LMIV  so I think that can be my full mark again.
     I got home from 1 of my rides and saw oil on the ground which was from the upper breather pipe and checked the lower one which goes in to a catch-can but it was bone dry. I temporarily rerouted the other one to a clear baby bottle between the carbs and so far it may have a few drops. Something to keep an eye on for now. It doesn't take much oil to look like lots.
      The slightly taller top covers on the engine were hurting my knees especially the R.H. one and I have been trimming and blending the back ends of the fins and it's not too bad now. Today I matched up the L.H. one even though it wasn't the problem I was still contacting it and trimming will allow that knee more room and should help the pressure on the other by letting me sit different. Before I put them back on I highlighted the fins completely because I like that look best. The pictures show how the original fins had a sharp corner at the rear and how I trimmed the L.H. one down and then the picture of them with highlighted fins.
     The only real negative issue is the oil leak that the engine was allegedly replaced for is back. Definitely from the rear bearing flange or maybe the bolts need sealer. Since it took 250 kms to make it's first drop I  won't worry about it until I need to open it up again. 40 years of working on 18 cyl radial aircraft engines makes one more tolerant of leaks.
(https://i.ibb.co/YhvBB7c/fins-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YhvBB7c)

(https://i.ibb.co/jhnyC9L/crossmember-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jhnyC9L)

(https://i.ibb.co/BZLbQpg/crossmember-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BZLbQpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/LYRdmJq/crossmember-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LYRdmJq)
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: lucky phil on March 21, 2021, 04:00:31 PM
  Well, rainy cool Sunday but it's been nice otherwise and now have 250 kms of test riding in.  Still mostly good news. I bumped the throttle spring spacers up to 5/8" which is max without coil bind but still not enough for good return. While playing at the carbs I noticed 1 accelerator pump was dead and it turned out to be the diaphragm confirmed by swapping L. to R. I contacted Wolfgang Harter the Laverda guy in B.C. and he had both the heavy throttle springs and the pump diaphragms so should have them soon. I tried turning both pumps off but it didn't like that so I made the good one operational but now that it was on the R.H. side it still wasn't right . For some unknown it seems that if I can only have one accel pump it needs to be the left? No matter as both should be back on line shortly.
     Yesterday I thought something had failed but it was just hitting reserve much sooner than expected but maybe the tank had been not as full as I thought. Then by the time I selected reserve with mitts on it was too late and I coasted to a stop. I was thinking trailer but hit the button and rode away.
     I got new  o-rings for the pull out dipstick and have it in now. With the original 3 litres I had put in after sitting overnight on the center stand it reads 1/2 low to the full mark from my LMIV  so I think that can be my full mark again.
     I got home from 1 of my rides and saw oil on the ground which was from the upper breather pipe and checked the lower one which goes in to a catch-can but it was bone dry. I temporarily rerouted the other one to a clear baby bottle between the carbs and so far it may have a few drops. Something to keep an eye on for now. It doesn't take much oil to look like lots.
      The slightly taller top covers on the engine were hurting my knees especially the R.H. one and I have been trimming and blending the back ends of the fins and it's not too bad now. Today I matched up the L.H. one even though it wasn't the problem I was still contacting it and trimming will allow that knee more room and should help the pressure on the other by letting me sit different. Before I put them back on I highlighted the fins completely because I like that look best. The pictures show how the original fins had a sharp corner at the rear and how I trimmed the L.H. one down and then the picture of them with highlighted fins.
     The only real negative issue is the oil leak that the engine was allegedly replaced for is back. Definitely from the rear bearing flange or maybe the bolts need sealer. Since it took 250 kms to make it's first drop I  won't worry about it until I need to open it up again.40 years of working on 18 cyl radial aircraft engines makes one more tolerant of leaks.
(https://i.ibb.co/YhvBB7c/fins-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YhvBB7c)

(https://i.ibb.co/jhnyC9L/crossmember-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jhnyC9L)

(https://i.ibb.co/BZLbQpg/crossmember-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BZLbQpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/LYRdmJq/crossmember-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LYRdmJq)


Seems we have a similar professional background.

Ciao
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on March 21, 2021, 10:11:16 PM
I guess we did
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on March 22, 2021, 07:18:51 AM
Super cool, glad it's working out for you. I like this build a lot.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on March 22, 2021, 08:03:08 AM
Super cool, glad it's working out for you. I like this build a lot.
     Thanks, it' looks promising so far.
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: LowRyter on March 28, 2021, 10:31:47 AM
 :thumb:
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: Muzz on March 29, 2021, 03:36:01 AM
Must be something in the water in Canada.  Between you and Canuck750 you guys certainly pull some rabbits out of the hat.

Really enjoyed your journey thanks Leroy. :thumb:
Title: Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / - project
Post by: leroy_can on March 29, 2021, 05:13:20 PM
Must be something in the water in Canada.  Between you and Canuck750 you guys certainly pull some rabbits out of the hat.

Really enjoyed your journey thanks Leroy. :thumb:
    Thanks Muzz, Praise from the land of Bert Monroe and John Britten and then a link to Canuck750 is very flattering indeed.