What is the future for MG?

[dave1068]

I just bought a new V85TT yesterday and was talking to the owner who has been in the bike business  for about 50yrs. The V7 line seems to be very popular and he cant hold them long w/out selling, even the V85TTs all sold out except for 1 base model and unsure when new ones will come.

I think we all remember when leftover Stelvios, Audaces and maybe Eldorados were almost 8000 off list price in yrs past. I think small bikes may be their forte as more women and novice riders find out about Guzzi, perhaps electric bikes will be the next wave for MG as HD and others follow suit.

[SmithSwede]

Personally, I think electric vehicles are a pipe dream.  The IC engine is fully mature technology and works extremely well.   We have a trillion dollar infrastructure of gas stations and all the rest developed to service that tech.   We are swimming in oil for the long foreseeable future.  Electric is struggling to even come close to matching the performance of IC, and nobody thinks it will ever be radically superior (e.g. electric vehicles aren’t going to create a 175 mph superhighway)

I’d change my mind if the pre-tax true price of gasoline got to $12/gallon and stayed there.  But even if the price a fuel created a powerful incentive for electric, as soon as a substantial percentage switched to electric, wouldn’t the price of gas collapse with the weaker demand?  Not clear to me where the equilibrium would be.

As to Guzzi, I’m surprised they have lasted this long. 

Sorry.  Maybe I had too many grumpy pills this morning

[oldbike54]

 Uh , electric vehicles are bad fast .

 Dusty

[Guzzistajohn]

I've ridden two e-lectric dirt bikes. A trials bike and an enduro on a KTM looking frame. It was wicked fast on the #3 button. The lack of sound was odd. Just tires on the ground and chain noise. Can't speak for the future of this technology, I guess we'll see. That power has to come from somewhere.

[SmithSwede]

Uh , electric vehicles are bad fast .

 Dusty

Well, some Tesla vehicles are fast.  So what?  A Corvette is fast too.  Besides, the electric version of the family grocery getter probably isn’t going to be super fast like a Tesla.  Nor will the electric version of the econo-box.

But in any event, are we really going to switch to electric so we can have faster cars?  Is that a good thing?  And if that is really what the marketplace wanted, it could be supplied right now with IC.

Sorry.  I just don’t get the electric thing.   Well, I get the interest in novel tech, and I get the boondoggle and subsidy aspects, but not the deeper fundamentals. 

[ampm7]

As per the comment on lightweight bikes for the long haul, been in a 40 knot crosswind riding a light bike? Heavier is better for that scenario. Personally I'd like to see Moto Guzzi do a V-4 water cooled cruiser bike. One that weighs in at 620lbs and could be anywhere form 1000cc to 1500cc. And with a single sided CARC shaft and larger gas tank than my (new) Eldo had. Still make the 850's and improve on them. As for the electrics, they only work for someone in an urban environment and not made for the long haul.

[Tim Henry]

I'd like to see a v8 in mgs future or reintroduce the 120° v twin layout of their 1930s -50s bicylindrico racer in liquid cooled which is a nod to history and not be stuck in small block world but piaggio won't let it happen

[tommy2cyl]

Ncdan:  Yup.  Totally agree.  I also don't do 2 up anymore so that has eliminated a need for a bigger motor/hp  at this stage of my life.  I have never experienced the 1400 so like I said, not really qualified to comment on that.  Just my opinion on what I read and what I and my friends like, doesn't seem to be much interest in the larger bikes.  Everyone should buy what they want.  The market place speaks and the manufacturers react.  Time will tell.

[blackcat]

As for the electrics, they only work for someone in an urban environment and not made for the long haul.

True, but that is a BIG number.

There are plenty of electric scooters in urban environments right now, mostly dorky and generally ugly but a well designed motorcycle at a reasonable price could be a money maker for a motorcycle company. Maybe not initially but it's going to happen,  especially as more and more electric cars enter the market.

I haven't taken the HD electric bike for a ride yet, but after hearing one blast by my house recently I decided that I need to take one for a test ride because that thing was wickedly fast and it sounded great.

[Moparnut72]

As per the comment on lightweight bikes for the long haul, been in a 40 knot crosswind riding a light bike? Heavier is better for that scenario. Personally I'd like to see Moto Guzzi do a V-4 water cooled cruiser bike. One that weighs in at 620lbs and could be anywhere form 1000cc to 1500cc. And with a single sided CARC shaft and larger gas tank than my (new) Eldo had. Still make the 850's and improve on them. As for the electrics, they only work for someone in an urban environment and not made for the long haul.

I rode to Reno yesterday. There was major wind, probably about 40 mph. I am glad I was on the Audace and not the V7. I would like to see MG come out with a bike somewhere in between. A road bike based on the V85 would work for me. The Audace is getting somewhat heavy for me, old age is the culprit.

As to the future of MG they have got to do something about the dealership situation. There needs to be more and better quality. When I was in Reno I stopped by a motorcycle event. Open to all brands but there was a majority of Harleys. I got some nice comments on my bike, BUT one guy asked me where I got my bike, "Freedom Cycle?" No I got it from the company that bought them out. He said "they are a bunch of crooks". I had to agree with him. He then asked who worked on my bike? I pointed to my chest, he just smiled. The dealership network, or the lack of quality dealerships is probably the biggest problem. The false perception of the lousy quality of Italian products is another which is not an easy fix.
kk

[Ncdan]

Ncdan:  Yup.  Totally agree.  I also don't do 2 up anymore so that has eliminated a need for a bigger motor/hp  at this stage of my life.  I have never experienced the 1400 so like I said, not really qualified to comment on that.  Just my opinion on what I read and what I and my friends like, doesn't seem to be much interest in the larger bikes.  Everyone should buy what they want.  The market place speaks and the manufacturers react.  Time will tell.

I’m with ya Tom, I’m also riding solo now and now that I’ve got two bikes that weigh in a little over 600 lb and is in the CC range of 1000- 1100, I’ll probably never go back to a 800-900 pounder👍

[kingoffleece]

Well, net income is up which makes me wonder if some other costs are run thru Guzzi for many different accounting reasons.  Wouldn't be the first time costs get allocated in creative ways.  Also makes me think that some of the R and D for the V85 will now level out and those columns will change.

As for their US future, the dealer network issue KILLS them.  When I'm in a room with 20 riders 19 of them lie the bike but would NEVER own one.  The reception is there is no where to take it.  Mind, most ride Harleys and BMW's so I understand why they feel that way.  I'm half kidding, but only half.

And Guzzi N/A lost a, IMO, very knowledgeable and key player in 2nd half 2020.  Not at all a positive step.

[JJ]

Never can be a while JJ. There may come a day we can’t get gasoline 🤔😂👍

Maybe...but I suspect I will LONG GONE before then!!

[bad Chad]

Well, net income is up which makes me wonder if some other costs are run thru Guzzi for many different accounting reasons.  Wouldn't be the first time costs get allocated in creative ways.  Also makes me think that some of the R and D for the V85 will now level out and those columns will change.

As for their US future, the dealer network issue KILLS them.  When I'm in a room with 20 riders 19 of them lie the bike but would NEVER own one.  The reception is there is no where to take it.  Mind, most ride Harleys and BMW's so I understand why they feel that way.  I'm half kidding, but only half.

And Guzzi N/A lost a a, IMO, very knowledgeable and key player in 2nd half 2020.  Not at all a positive step.

What??

[sidecarnutz]

I got into Guzzi's after I came home from the first Gulf War. I had never seen them before and there was just something SO RIGHT about their layout and engineering to me. Appealed to me on a number of levels. It was the 1 liter Tonti framed bikes that grabbed me. I liked the loops OK, but it was the 80's and 90's bikes they made that grabbed me so hard. I did finally own a 2000 V11S and I turned it into a sport touring machine with home made racks to hold large Givi bags. But that was my last new Guzzi. I just slowly found less to like in their new offerings. Last month I bought a new RE 650 Conti GT and I'm having a lot of fun with that. Love the light handling and perfect brakes and fueling and the light clutch and perfect 6 speed box. That has become my new swiss army knife bike that'll do it all for me.
In 4 weeks I go under the knife for a new knee. Hoping to recover well enough by June to maybe ride to the VA Guzzi Rally. Just have to see how it goes.

[TN Mark]

Why would Piaggio bring electric bikes through Moto Guzzi when their Vespa line seems more naturally aligned for that segment?

[Bulldog9]

The V7 has mostly been selling well, the V85 has been a huge success, and hopefully the new 850 V7/9 sell well. I think the V9 will continue to slog along.

What you're really asking is 'is this all there will be'?  I don't know if the 1400's were Euro 5 complaint, but they way overbuilt that chassis in their dream of competing with Harley/Indian, and should have kept it on a smaller modified CARC chassis as a stressed member. Such a shame, imagine a 1400 Griso or Norge, or <gasp> 1400 Sport........ I think we are all hoping that Guzzi will have a larger street/touring bike.

Then again, weren't all the legendary Guzzi's in the 850 cc range? Lemans, Eldorado, etc?

I don't buy the electric thing, but who knows.  I still think they will have a street/sport version of the V85 motor, and as some have said, the head seemed to be precast as 4V heads. I would welcome a V85 based Sport Touring bike (Norge) or Lemans resurrection.

But I think Guzzi will be fine. Read a story that they had to more than double their work force to keep up with V85 demand.

In a way, I hope they don't come out with a new model I will want. I can't justify another bike other than an old loop as a 'project' and don't want to get ride of any of the bikes I have. Also important is that SWMBO read me the riot act this week (in her subdued oh so demure tones) about my 6 motorcycles, 2 sports cars and truck, so I have been..... ehem clipped, unless it is a low cost project. 

[kingoffleece]

What what?  Look at the second page bottom.

[s1120]

Really for a small company, and the V7, and V85 selling so well, I can see its tough for them to rock the boat. Im really wondering about the V9's future..  You know its strange. The Cali/EV/Jackal/stone sold SO well..  Really they seemed to be the keystone bike at least in the US for a lot of years for Guzzi, but when they left..  nothing really replaced them. The 1400's were a LOT bigger... the V9 smaller..  I would have thought that one of them would fill the gap. Unless the old 1100 was just the sweet spot between sporty, and cruising.. I think a scrambler style, or "monster" naked bike style might be worth a jump into before the trend fades..  Other then that, I expect more of the same.

[9fingers]

The future of Moto Guzzi is electric.  As it is for all other motorcycle manufacturers.  When everybody uses the same motor how do you do product differentiation?  I suspect a lot of brands are going away.

Mike

As sad as it is, I agree with the above. I bought my new V7III Special because of the motor and the look of the bike. When the motor is gone there will only be the look. Thankfully I am old enough that I will never have to own an electric bike. I will grab a V85 in a couple of years, while I can.
Scott

[OldMojo]

I think the impending demise of the ICE motorcycle is overblown. They're such a tiny proportion of the transportation landscape that I don't think the replacement pressure is there. While electric bikes are certainly coming, people will switch to them for their own reasons, such as ease of maintenance and convenience, rather than lack of ICE availability.

I think it may shake out like lawnmowers in this regard. Electrics will become prevalent in the "light duty" segment (push mowers/commuter bikes) while ICE continues to serve the more demanding application (large riding mowers/touring bikes).

Where that leaves Guzzi is hard to say. In my mind, the engine is what makes a Guzzi a Guzzi. I don't know how they make the transition and remain distinctive.

But the fact is that electric bikes are in their infancy, and it remains to be seen what configurations may emerge. Maybe they develop some slick hub driven 2WD setup, or a counter-rotating twin motor/twin shaft drive arrangement!

More than likely though, electric development will occur with the Piaggio stablemates, as someone else mentioned, and Guzzi will inherit the ICE segment, continuing to do what they do.

[Ncdan]

Personally, I think electric vehicles are a pipe dream.  The IC engine is fully mature technology and works extremely well.   We have a trillion dollar infrastructure of gas stations and all the rest developed to service that tech.   We are swimming in oil for the long foreseeable future.  Electric is struggling to even come close to matching the performance of IC, and nobody thinks it will ever be radically superior (e.g. electric vehicles aren’t going to create a 175 mph superhighway)

I’d change my mind if the pre-tax true price of gasoline got to $12/gallon and stayed there.  But even if the price a fuel created a powerful incentive for electric, as soon as a substantial percentage switched to electric, wouldn’t the price of gas collapse with the weaker demand?  Not clear to me where the equilibrium would be.

As to Guzzi, I’m surprised they have lasted this long. 

Sorry.  Maybe I had too many grumpy pills this morning

I pretty much can agree with your take on this mr smith, especially on the EV/IC take.
As far as MG is concerned, there are reasons  that the company does not seem capable of growth. Some of it is the fault of the companies that have owned it and some of it is the inherent issues that tend to plague most every model they come out with.
Personally I can’t believe that a motorcycle company can complete with the rest of the market with a limited CC motor of 850. I also believe that they can’t stay competitive without a bigger tourer, both Sport and cruiser style. There are simply too much of the riding public in these type of bikes and not so called ADVENTURE BIKES. Not knocking these monster dirt road warriors, I just don’t believe they will hold the brand up, these and the 700s. I could definitely be found wrong and the future will be the only judge.
Good conversation👍

[Kev m]

I pretty much can agree with your take on this mr smith, especially on the EV/IC take.
As far as MG is concerned, there are reasons  that the company does not seem capable of growth. Some of it is the fault of the companies that have owned it and some of it is the inherent issues that tend to plague most every model they come out with.
Personally I can’t believe that a motorcycle company can complete with the rest of the market with a limited CC motor of 850. I also believe that they can’t stay competitive without a bigger tourer, both Sport and cruiser style. There are simply too much of the riding public in these type of bikes and not so called ADVENTURE BIKES. Not knocking these monster dirt road warriors, I just don’t believe they will hold the brand up, these and the 700s. I could definitely be found wrong and the future will be the only judge.
Good conversation👍

I'm tempted to think like you and wonder. Personally I think a 1000-1200cc water-cooled CARC would be the answer. You wouldn't need the cubes of the 1400 and you would be set with performance and emissions for a long time. This along with the smallblock variants would deliver what most of the world wants, just not the super-heavyweight touring bikes and frankly, and who cares for now and maybe forever I mean I dunno even what BMW sells of the big-big bikes. They make their lionshare 1250 down right?!?

Just look at the Harley Pan Am - if THEY can do it, why not Guzzi.

[Ncdan]

I'm tempted to think like you and wonder. Personally I think a 1000-1200cc water-cooled CARC would be the answer. You wouldn't need the cubes of the 1400 and you would be set with performance and emissions for a long time. This along with the smallblock variants would deliver what most of the world wants, just not the super-heavyweight touring bikes and frankly, and who cares for now and maybe forever I mean I dunno even what BMW sells of the big-big bikes. They make their lionshare 1250 down right?!?


Just look at the Harley Pan Am - if THEY can do it, why not Guzzi.

I agree and no it doesn’t have to be 1400 or bigger but it’s going to have to exceed a 850 to stay in the race, overall. Not saying that the 850 in not a big enough mill, especially in some platforms and it’s plenty big enough for any style bike for me at this point of of my life. I’m just saying all around the motorcycle community as a hole that these motor size questions apply.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

I think the prognostications on Guzzi's demise are well overstated.  This is a niche company that makes niche products. They have never been a sales behemoth or had much of a footprint outside esoteric circles of enthusiasts (beside their short stint supplying bikes to CA highway patrol).   Judging from their dealer network and support, it doesnt even seem like they want to move beyond that (in the US at least).

There are plenty of companies who make their hay selling quirky/retro/niche products to those who want them, and dont really offer anything outside that to attract other buyers/demographics. 
For example, I have this espresso machine.. This company is now owned by Iily, but for a long time they were indy and made only retro espresso machines. They eventually got bought out by a big company and became just one part of their product mix (kinda like MG and piaggio)



Is it the best espresso machine on the market? Hell no. Does it have the strongest pump, the best boiler, does it pull the most consistent shots?  No. But it's passable/competitive if operated correctly, it is very basic to use, it has no worthless bells & whistles, no 'convenience features' no timers, no automatic frothing settings. Just an on/off switch and a brew switch and a toggle hi/low/ temp control. Plus is looks funky and retro and its unique.

I think Guzzi fills a similar niche, they sell a few thousand bikes a year, and at least pre-- they were making the parent company money, and were trending in an ok direction.  Not every motorcycle company can be Honda. That's just peachy for me.

As for the big blocks going away, I dont really care. The current gen has very similar engine layout, the 850 in the V85 is almost a strong as my 1100 Breva, and the bike weighs 100# less.
If people wanted more CARC bikes and 1400 cruisers, they probably would have sold instead of languishing on dealer floors.  Moto Guzzi has a strong seller in the v7 that pays homage to the company history, and the v85 and v9 are good variants off that. I dont know what ya'll expect. They arent going to continue making bikes that dont sell.

[JJ]

Maybe I am just old school, but I just don't see a Moto Guzzi looking like this electric ZERO motorcycle...

 

[Ncdan]

I think the prognostications on Guzzi's demise are well overstated.  This is a niche company that makes niche products. They have never been a sales behemoth or had much of a footprint outside esoteric circles of enthusiasts (beside their short stint supplying bikes to CA highway patrol).   Judging from their dealer network and support, it doesnt even seem like they want to move beyond that (in the US at least).

There are plenty of companies who make their hay selling quirky/retro/niche products to those who want them, and dont really offer anything outside that to attract other buyers/demographics. 
For example, I have this espresso machine.. This company is now owned by Iily, but for a long time they were indy and made only retro espresso machines. They eventually got bought out by a big company and became just one part of their product mix (kinda like MG and piaggio)



Is it the best espresso machine on the market? Hell no. Does it have the strongest pump, the best boiler, does it pull the most consistent shots?  No. But it's passable/competitive if operated correctly, it is very basic to use, it has no worthless bells & whistles, no 'convenience features' no timers, no automatic frothing settings. Just an on/off switch and a brew switch and a toggle hi/low/ temp control. Plus is looks funky and retro and its unique.

I think Guzzi fills a similar niche, they sell a few thousand bikes a year, and at least pre-- they were making the parent company money, and were trending in an ok direction.  Not every motorcycle company can be Honda. That's just peachy for me.

As for the big blocks going away, I dont really care. The current gen has very similar engine layout, the 850 in the V85 is almost a strong as my 1100 Breva, and the bike weighs 100# less.
If people wanted more CARC bikes and 1400 cruisers, they probably would have sold instead of languishing on dealer floors.  Moto Guzzi has a strong seller in the v7 that pays homage to the company history, and the v85 and v9 are good variants off that. I dont know what ya'll expect. They arent going to continue making bikes that dont sell.

You’re right about them not continuing to make bikes that does not sell, just look at the 1400s.
There’s no doubt that MG is not going to stay in business, as they will, due to the fact that it’s a fact they have been going out of business since 1921🤔
The point of my thread in the first place was pretty much aimed at the speculation of not having a bike any larger than the 850cc, wise move or not? 
It’s been an interesting conversation, for me anyhow, and that’s what the s forum is about.
Carry on👍

[Kev m]

As for the big blocks going away, I dont really care. The current gen has very similar engine layout, the 850 in the V85 is almost a strong as my 1100 Breva, and the bike weighs 100# less.
If people wanted more CARC bikes and 1400 cruisers, they probably would have sold instead of languishing on dealer floors.  Moto Guzzi has a strong seller in the v7 that pays homage to the company history, and the v85 and v9 are good variants off that. I dont know what ya'll expect. They arent going to continue making bikes that dont sell.

To be clear I'm not saying they should have continued with the 1200 CARCS or the 1400s.

But I DO THINK a new SSSA 1000-1200cc water-cooled bike could offer a lot of room on top of the smallblock series for a more complete line of bikes.

And I think your comparison of the B11 and V85 is off.

V85TT (2020 specs): 505# Wet - 67 rwhp / 49 torques
B11 (my FBF dyno result stock): 562# Wet - 75 rwhp / 58 torques

So that's 57# less but it's also 8 hp less and 9 ft. lbs. less. But I THINK that doesn't tell the whole story. The V85 feels VERY different from the B11 and not nearly as punchy or freight-train like on the highway.

The V85 is a great bike, but as the top dog of the line it is far below what is available from a lot of other manufacturers.

[blackcat]

Maybe I am just old school, but I just don't see a Moto Guzzi looking like this electric ZERO motorcycle...

 

I prefer the look of the HD:

[Bulldog9]

I had a fun discussion with Pete Roper last year about the possibility of bumping the 850 V85 motor closer to 1000 CC's.  He was of the opinion that the small block is maxed out at 850. He also on examination of the Heads believes that they were pre-engineered to be 4 Valve Heads run with the same pushrods, not the in head cam of the CARC 8V motors. Though I think they dropped the ball by not developing the 1400 8V in a trimmer package, as a stressed member, or lighter chassis, I don't think Guzzi needs to go back to the Big Block.

The Small Block in the V85 at 84x77 is oversquare or short-stroke as its cylinders have a greater bore diameter than its stroke length, giving a bore/stroke ratio greater than 1:1. I ran some figures on bore and stroke, and personally don't feel that it is impossible to get to 950+ cc, but as Pete is far more knowledgeable, his belief is that the stroke can't be increased much due to contact with the cyl lowers, and that the case is at it's limit for bore, but just a 5mm increase bore with same stroke puts you at 958cc, and the same bore with 1mm increase is 970 and so on. NOT much of a change, and throw a 4V head on top, higher power output is a given. I'd prefer more stroke.
https://spicerparts.com/calculators/engine-displacement-calculator

I think Guzzi has a great platform to build on with the V85 motor. On the V7/9 they literally tuned it down, we will see if they tune and develop it UP. Just a bit more power from that motor, and it would be perfect for a Classic performance oriented street bike as Triumph has done with the Thruxton, etc. That said, there is no replacement for displacement, and though the V85 may be close to the B11 or Griso 1100, there is NO comparison to how those bikes make power and feel compared to the V85.