Author Topic: Octane Booster & Timing Question & The Story & Over It.  (Read 3748 times)

Online Tom H

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Octane Booster & Timing Question & The Story & Over It.
« on: March 24, 2022, 05:34:33 PM »
Has anyone used or know of a good one that is not just snake oil? I'm trying to solve an on going problem with my Ambo 1000. Acts like a ping type problem. Thought a high octane fuel may tell me something.

I do have a VP Racing fuels gas station somewhat near me. I don't know what octanes they sell. Also, right now, I'm sure a gallon is very expensive. I would need at least 3 gallons.

So is there a booster worth trying a bottle of?

Thank you,
Tom
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 04:52:07 PM by Tom H »
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Online Tom H

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2022, 08:25:23 PM »
Next step.... To find out why a stock 1000 roundfin wont run correctly at 4000rpm or above on pump gas in California. Maybe.... It has high compression pistons and I didn't figure that out???

This is kinda my last step with this engine. I wanted a freeway 75-80mph engine, I have a GREAT city bike. Sounds perfect below 4000rpm. I did start a thread about a year ago on the issues with this engine. Still have not solved it.

Except timing does change my noise issue.

Thank you!!!!!!
Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Online kballowe

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2022, 09:03:32 PM »
Get the higher octane fuel from the pump.  You'll be $$$ and performance ahead.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/octane-booster-and-why-they-contain-kerosene.186589/

Offline SoCV

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2022, 09:17:54 PM »
 Thought this bike sounded familiar . Guessing it has 1,000 CC Gilardonis installed , right , so it is not quite stock .

 I would start with cam timing if you are sure the ignition timing is correct . What carburetors are you running , slides , etc . Unless something strange is afoot with the pistons being really high compression , if it is detonating the cause has to be a hot spot in one of the chambers , as 91 octane should be fine in a standard compression ditch pump .

 Dusty
Almost 900,000 in a little over 8 years in two .

RIP Mike Prentice

Wildguzzi.com

Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2022, 09:17:54 PM »

Online Tom H

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2022, 10:11:36 PM »
The engine is from a SP or G5. "Should be" stock pistons, not Gilardonis 1000 in a 750 or 850. They are iron bores.

I would rather start another thread on what my issues are and reference my original thread about the problem with this engine.

I would like to keep this thread on a good octane booster. VP Racing Fuels has one that might work? $24 per quart, but only need 1/2 quart per 5 gallons.

If there is interest in the saga of this engine. I will start another post with the details of what I have tried.

Any thoughts on a booster?

Thank you very much!!!
Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline SoCV

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2022, 10:20:59 PM »
 Never heard of anyone having success with octane boosters , and I've spent lots of time around hot rodders and racers.

 Dusty
Almost 900,000 in a little over 8 years in two .

RIP Mike Prentice

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2022, 11:23:54 PM »

        104+ . The original booster and by all tests, the best.

          PaulB  :boozing:
A Miller in the hand is worth two in the fridge.

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2022, 07:25:13 AM »
You might try some Chevron Techron as an additive. I have seen some air cooled engine intake valves so badly coated with deposits that they resembled a tulip bulb with the top half cut off. Before opening, the engine would lazily accelerate to 1/2 throttle and no more. Remove the carbs and boots, look inside.

Offline Road Rocket

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2022, 10:48:35 AM »
 Add about 20% toluene to the gas….it’s a potent octane booster…. For you own info Google  toluene as an octane booster
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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2022, 11:22:17 AM »
Using octane booster every fill up will get old, fast. If it ran fine for years and then went south, octane is the least of your woes.

Online Tom H

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2022, 11:31:06 AM »
I have had the issue ever since I put the engine together about a year ago.

I only wanted to try some as a TEST. If it makes a difference, then I find out why. If no difference, then I move on to other things.

Thanks again!!
Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline John Croucher

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2022, 12:19:30 PM »
The purpose of octane booster or higher octane is to slow the burning rate of fuel on the ignition stroke through the first 45 degrees of the power stroke.  This produces more energy for a longer period of time.  Adding mineral spirits to your fuel would slow the combustion process.  Or some two cycle oil.

Offline John Croucher

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2022, 12:23:28 PM »
May be a bad wrist pin.  A loose fit will cause a knocking sound that varies with rpm.  Found this to be an issue with a Guzzi engine.  I tried adjusting the valves and fuel changes.  Some Smarty Pants Guy at a gas station walked up to me and said "sound like you have a bad wrist pin fitment issue"  He was exactly right.  New bearings and the problem was gone.

Online Tom H

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2022, 01:11:29 PM »
If I run this engine at 65mph in 5th gear about 3500rpm. It's purring like a kitten. When I get to 70mph+ and 4000+ that is when the noise come in. If I "maintain" 4000rpm, but ever so slightly let off the throttle, it's back to being a kitten. Touch the gas to hold speed and back to noise. The noise will also clear up when going slightly down hill. Up hill or a headwind makes it worse.

Wrist pins and bushings are perfect.

It has been mentioned it could be a cam issue. Maybe out of time. I triple checked that the marks were line up on the sprokets. This is twice I've dealt with the sprokets. First install and when I changed to Valtec style tensioner.

Two stroke oil?? Hum.... I do have some of that. Would I mix it like for my outboard? 1/2quart per 6 gallons??

Thank you,
Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Online Ncdan

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2022, 01:18:03 PM »
If I run this engine at 65mph in 5th gear about 3500rpm. It's purring like a kitten. When I get to 70mph+ and 4000+ that is when the noise come in. If I "maintain" 4000rpm, but ever so slightly let off the throttle, it's back to being a kitten. Touch the gas to hold speed and back to noise. The noise will also clear up when going slightly down hill. Up hill or a headwind makes it worse.

Wrist pins and bushings are perfect.

It has been mentioned it could be a cam issue. Maybe out of time. I triple checked that the marks were line up on the sprokets. This is twice I've dealt with the sprokets. First install and when I changed to Valtec style tensioner.

Two stroke oil?? Hum.... I do have some of that. Would I mix it like for my outboard? 1/2quart per 6 gallons??

Thank you,
Tom
It’s sounds like you described it as making the noise when it in a “pulling” point, best terminology I can come up with. Or maybe when torque is demanded.
Hopefully not a naïve or dumb question but are you sure it’s coming from the motor?

Online Tom H

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2022, 01:27:57 PM »
Not a dumb question.

I have worked on anything that could be rattling. Removed the horn and gen belt, anything under the tank tightened and adjusted, exhausts. Even went through the forks. Years ago my 850 had a rattle, springs were rattling. I have pretty much ruled out something rattling on the frame and bolted to the engine.

I had thought I fixed my issue. There was a weird vibration starting at about 65mph. Turned out to be the gen drive belt. It was a cogged style. The belt was hitting that lip where the upper belt cover bolt goes in. Removed belt. Vibration gone. Got a belt without coggs and all good.

Thanks again!
Tom
« Last Edit: March 25, 2022, 02:06:04 PM by Tom H »
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline SoCV

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2022, 01:44:24 PM »
 One of the Guzzi mechanics can answer this question . You mentioned adapting round fin heads to a later motor . As per our private conversation where we discussed overall valve lift , are the rocker arm ratios the same between round fin later square fin heads ? Sorry for the sidetrack .

 Dusty
Almost 900,000 in a little over 8 years in two .

RIP Mike Prentice

Online Tom H

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2022, 02:01:01 PM »
The heads, round to round fin. From '72 Eldo loop to Tonti 1000 round. Had to open up the push rod holes on the head.

EDIT: BTW the casing numbers on the heads are the same as well as the valves. Only difference is the exhaust header mounting and the hole for the push rod. Some latter loop heads even had the casting for the tonti headers, but the holes for the studs were not there. Don't know what the hole for the push rod was?

The rockers. If you mean the length of each arm from the center of the rocker pin to the tips for the valve and push rod. I "think" they are the same. DIFFERENCE... The Tonto blocks have the lifters located farther away from the piston bore compared to loop blocks. The rockers arm that goes to the push rod is angled upward to line up with the lifter. So yes that arm I think is longer, but from pin center line is the same.

I may be able to measure the lift. But only for comparison to the rest of the valves. I don't I have a device like a dial indicator to get book spec measurement.

Thanks again!!!
Tom
« Last Edit: March 25, 2022, 03:07:07 PM by Tom H »
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline SoCV

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2022, 02:10:16 PM »
 You might be able to borrow a dial indicator , for that matter they are not expensive . Seriously , this thing is acting like it isn't breathing well above 4K , if the rocker arms aren't rocking far enough (hi-zoot technical term) it could be causing a problem .

 You will get this Tom , we are all pulling for you .

 Dusty
Almost 900,000 in a little over 8 years in two .

RIP Mike Prentice

Online Tom H

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Re: Octane Booster & Timing Question.
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2022, 02:49:59 PM »
I have renamed the thread to include why I was thinking of the octane booster. I would like to keep this to timing and fueling.

If this engine didn't run so well and quiet below 4000rpm, I would say I had a rod issue or the like. I really feel it's ignition or fuel.

I had mentioned that I can make the noise change with timing. Less timing quieter, more timing more noise and earlier in the revs.

While timing the bike in the garage, I over advanced the dist. to about 15-20deg. Idle was up and seemed to idle smoother. I kept that info in my mind.

If you were to time a '60's V8 for instance and didn't have a light, you would adjust the dist. to get it to start. Then you would turn it until you had the highest idle. When you put a light to it, you would be very close to where it should be.

On a test ride down a freeway that I to test on. I pulled off where I turn around to head home. Decided to adjust the dist. by ear like a V8. Engine started up fine. There is a hill right there, starting up on the short hill it was noisy, like I didn't know how to use a clutch. Got to flat ground and another start, not too bad. Got on the freeway and what a racket!!!! At the next exit I pulled off and getting to a parking lot to work on it was a very noisy experience. Put timing back to about normal and headed home.

I would love to put my ear next to the engine to hear where it's coming from. I don't think I can run fast enough to do it at 70mph :grin:
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Online Ncdan

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Re: Octane Booster & Timing Question.
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2022, 03:00:32 PM »
I have renamed the thread to include why I was thinking of the octane booster. I would like to keep this to timing and fueling.

If this engine didn't run so well and quiet below 4000rpm, I would say I had a rod issue or the like. I really feel it's ignition or fuel.

I had mentioned that I can make the noise change with timing. Less timing quieter, more timing more noise and earlier in the revs.

While timing the bike in the garage, I over advanced the dist. to about 15-20deg. Idle was up and seemed to idle smoother. I kept that info in my mind.

If you were to time a '60's V8 for instance and didn't have a light, you would adjust the dist. to get it to start. Then you would turn it until you had the highest idle. When you put a light to it, you would be very close to where it should be.

On a test ride down a freeway that I to test on. I pulled off where I turn around to head home. Decided to adjust the dist. by ear like a V8. Engine started up fine. There is a hill right there, starting up on the short hill it was noisy, like I didn't know how to use a clutch. Got to flat ground and another start, not too bad. Got on the freeway and what a racket!!!! At the next exit I pulled off and getting to a parking lot to work on it was a very noisy experience. Put timing back to about normal and headed home.

I would love to put my ear next to the engine to hear where it's coming from. I don't think I can run fast enough to do it at 70mph :grin:
Tom, They do make a motor stethoscope that you can do that very thing👍

« Last Edit: March 25, 2022, 03:03:55 PM by Ncdan »

Online Tom H

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Re: Octane Booster & Timing Question.
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2022, 03:03:37 PM »
Have you ever been on a freeway near L.A. Ca.? Can be scary!

Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Octane Booster & Timing Question.
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2022, 03:47:21 PM »
I ran Avgas 100/130 in a 50/50 mix with 93 unleaded in my LM3. Never pinged, has some lead in it. My brother did same thing and sent mix for a test, came back as 100 octane. He put it in his Triumphs. It does give you plenty of go. It helps if you live by an airport.
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Offline Road Rocket

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Re: Octane Booster Question.
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2022, 04:35:07 PM »
The purpose of octane booster or higher octane is to slow the burning rate of fuel on the ignition stroke through the first 45 degrees of the power stroke.  This produces more energy for a longer period of time.  Adding mineral spirits to your fuel would slow the combustion process.  Or some two cycle oil.
Slowing the burning rate is exactly opposite of what needs to be done.You need to speed up combustion to avoid detonation… Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end gases around the permitter of the piston. The longer the burn time ,the greater the chance for detonation…Octane boosters prevent the rapid uncontrolled burn, they do not slow down the burn of the main charge…..
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH-lDh3rVFQ






« Last Edit: March 25, 2022, 04:39:05 PM by Road Rocket »
Rough Edge Racing with a new name but still the same pin head

Offline lucian

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Re: Octane Booster & Timing Question.
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2022, 07:35:48 PM »
Hey Tom, just a thought but have you verified, with a light,  that the timing is advancing fully to the full advance mark while at 4,000 plus rpms?  Is it possible it has the wrong spring set in the distributor?

Online Tom H

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Re: Octane Booster & Timing Question.
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2022, 07:57:55 PM »
I have worked with springs and full advance. I was working on slowing down full advance, but that slowed down low rpm advance. With a dual point dist. I put the heavy springs like used in a big valve head in it. Didn't help the noise, but killed the low end power.

I do run a single point loop dist. with stock springs from MG Cycle for a Eldo.

'Yes, either dist. will work as long as you change the dist. gear to match the cam gear.

Very good thought!!!
Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline lucian

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Re: Octane Booster & Timing Question.
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2022, 07:43:09 AM »
 Have you tried a compression test, maybe just some carbon build up. Short of pulling the heads and measuring the squish band to determine the  compression ratio. I would start there, .  A leak down may show a leaky intake valve which could be a cause of detonation due to a lean burn. Do you notice any excessive heat  when winding it up?

Offline wymple

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Re: Octane Booster & Timing Question.
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2022, 11:47:14 AM »
"
If you were to time a '60's V8 for instance and didn't have a light, you would adjust the dist. to get it to start. Then you would turn it until you had the highest idle. When you put a light to it, you would be very close to where it should be."

Wrong. That will be far too advanced. Find the fastest idle & then back off some.
No trees were harmed by the conveyance of this message, but a lot of electrons were seriously disturbed.

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Re: Octane Booster & Timing Question.
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2022, 01:55:26 PM »
Octane boosters? Generally, 'No'. There is no way to predict or confirm your octane after you use it.
Whether it may be a diagnostic aid, well, perhaps. But it's not the path I'd take.

They do raise octane, but octane is a measure of speed of combustion; that tells nothing about contribution or detriment to power content in the fuel mixture. If your engine pings, and you add octane booster, and the ping resolves, you have some information to move forward with.
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Offline SoCV

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Re: Octane Booster & Timing Question.
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2022, 02:57:08 PM »
 This will start a fight , but octane isn't a measure of how fast or slow gasoline burns . Octane is only a measure of how resistant gasoline is to ignition . Gasoline can be blended to burn slightly slower or faster at any octane rating , although the differences are tiny . What chemists and IC engine designers are looking for are the conditions where the combustion process is complete at a certain degree of crankshaft rotation , low octane fuel ignites more readily , so in a high compression engine or in an old aircooled design that runs hot it can ignite too soon , meaning higher octane is needed to resist pre-ignition . Ethanol does tend to burn a tiny bit slower than gasoline , but that is a different discussion .

 Dusty
Almost 900,000 in a little over 8 years in two .

RIP Mike Prentice

 

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