LeMans 850 Frame/Engine Numbers

[Cam3512]

Looking for some info guys.  Got a line on a '78 LeMans 850 with frame #VE 76775, and engine #VE 076775.

My initial research shows these to be outside the numbers for a LeMans 850 (series 1 and 2).

Is it the real-deal?   Any expert input would be helpful.

[JoeW]

The numbers sound right for a US model. You need to see the VE prefix on the engine.

[Cam3512]

The numbers sound right for a US model. You need to see the VE prefix on the engine.

I believe it to be a US model.  It does have a "VE" prefix.  Do you have a source to include these US numbers?

[JoeW]

This is the same problem with V7 Sports. In Europe the frame and engine numbers do not match. All the publications I see just list European frame numbers LeMans 1s running VE11111-VE13040 these numbers are either covered by the VIN plate or not there at all. I did find this article though...
http://books.google.com/books?id=VeeEWX3kSDQC&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=moto+guzzi+le+mans+frame+numbers&source=bl&ots=OjYsj_iivD&sig=13PO-MqIP5uGwuh1t11ithvQThc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=p8VPVNfdOJCsyASnxIHYAg&ved=0CE4Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=moto%20guzzi%20le%20mans%20frame%20numbers&f=false
It states that second gen LM1 engines ran from about VE72000 to about VE76000 In the US the bike frame number and engine number match. Both being the European engine number

[jazzamoto]

Cam,

FYI my '78 Le Mans is VE 074757. I've seen several listings for Le Mans' of the same era with 074, 075 and 076 prefixes. The "VE" is the important part. You'll see references in some Guzzi books claiming VE11111 - VE13040 to be the relevant range of Le Mans frame/engine numbers but clearly bikes exported to North America diverged from this.

Cheers!

John

[Cam3512]

Thanks guys!  Got my answer.

[AndyS]

It states that second gen LM1 engines ran from about VE72000 to about VE76000 In the US the bike frame number and engine number match. Both being the European engine number

Mine is a September 1976, built right at the change over from Series 1 to Series 2.
Mine has all the usual Series 1 parts with a couple of Series 2 parts as well (normal I suppose as they moved from one batch of parts to the next)
Mine is VE72139, both engine and frame number match, although the frame plate covers where the VIN would have been stamped in Italy, so without removal, its not possible to know what number is there

[AndyS]

Interesting that the second series Mk1 850's start at 'around' engine number 72000.
Mine is engine number 72139, built in Sept 1976 and a definite Series 1 based on all of the parts on the bike, not a single one of the series 2 'variations' are on my bike.

Of course who knows what number engine ended up with which frame on the production line, and given that mine was an ex US bike so the frame number matches the engine number, but it adds further doubt to the assumption that the Series 2 Mk1 started after the summer holidays in '76 (late August ?) which I also read somewhere or other.

[fasduc]

Just to show how random the engine#'s related to build date are, I accumulated the following from other Le Mans 1 owners on the forum.

Sept 1976 - VE072139
Oct 1976 -   VE072078
Nov 1976 -  VE071818
Feb 1977 -   VE072249

Interesting the Sept 76 and Oct 76 bikes came with the 76 round taillight, the Nov 76 and Feb 77 bikes came with the series 2 taillight....

[blackcat]

Just to show how random the engine#'s related to build date are, I accumulated the following from other Le Mans 1 owners on the forum.

Sept 1976 - VE072139
Oct 1976 -   VE072078
Nov 1976 -  VE071818
Feb 1977 -   VE072249

Interesting the Sept 76 and Oct 76 bikes came with the 76 round taillight, the Nov 76 and Feb 77 bikes came with the series 2 taillight....

Mine is October 1976-71925.  Round taillight

[fasduc]

Mine is October 1976-71925.  Round taillight

Thanks, added yours to the list!

Sept 1976 - VE072139
Oct 1976 -   VE072078
Oct 1976 -   VE071877
Oct 1976 -   VE071923
Nov 1976 -  VE071818
Feb 1977 -   VE072249

[jas67]

Another data point for you:   My '77 (don't know the production date) motor is VE072803, and matches the frame number 72803.
Series 2 tail light.

[blackcat]

Thanks, added yours to the list!

Sept 1976 - VE072139
Oct 1976 -   VE072078
Oct 1976 -   VE071925
Nov 1976 -  VE071818
Feb 1977 -   VE072249

Correction, mine is 71923  I was looking at the mounting plate which looks like a 5 but is actually a 3.

[wicks]

1977 MANUFACTURED 850 LE MANS
1978 YEAR MODEL
FRAME NUMBER: 074654
ENGINE NUMBER: 074654

No 'VE' on this US model.

[jas67]

1977 MANUFACTURED 850 LE MANS
1978 YEAR MODEL
FRAME NUMBER: 074654
ENGINE NUMBER: 074654

No 'VE' on this US model.

The "VE" is only on the engine serial number.

[fasduc]

1977 MANUFACTURED 850 LE MANS
1978 YEAR MODEL
FRAME NUMBER: 074654
ENGINE NUMBER: 074654

No 'VE' on this US model.

So there is no Month as to when it was built, only 1977?

[1down5up]

The "VE" is only on the engine serial number.

My 77 lemans has it stamped on the frame and engine, though differing numbers frame v engine as per normal.

Has been in the family since new.

[fasduc]

My 77 lemans has it stamped on the frame and engine, though differing numbers frame v engine as per normal.

Has been in the family since new.

What are your engine and frame#'s?  Build date?

[wicks]

My mistake, sorry!  Engine does have VE*074654*

[Mojo53]

I just wanted to add more confusion to the serial number discussion. I have a 1976 LeMans with an engine number of VB 070239. Yes, it's definitely VB not VE.  Frame number is 70239 with a build date of Jan-1976. A really early LeMans I think.

[Turin]

Sure it isn't a issue with the stamping or casting that makes it look like a VB? Some lemans stampings weren't cast straight making some VE's look like a VF

[Mojo53]

It's clearly stamped VB. I studied it for a long time with a magnifying glass. I'll try to get a clear photo of it when I get a chance.

[5154guzzi]

   The story of the VB lemans prefix goes something like this :  The VB Lemans was homologated for production a few years before 1976 , but was put on hold, probably by De Tomaso. This was just after the 850 Endurance based V7 Sports from 71 and 72. There were a bunch of engine blocks already stamped VB and they were put away and stored.  When the 76 850`s came aboard in Oct/Nov 75,  they used up the all the available VE blocks, couldn`t keep up with demand and used the VB blocks while new cases were casted.   There`s a few documented ones in the US and more elsewhere, maybe as many as 100.   Well documented by Antonio C.  Italian language only Lemans book.