2012 Norge Service light, bike will not start, just turns over.

[bobbyfromnc]

The bike is showing a 'Service' warning. This means the dash is recognising an active problem with one of the vital components of the engine management system. This is why the vehicle has an On Board Diagnostic system and why the dash stores and memorises errors. You can speculate until you're blue in the tits! Or you can simply check the codes and find out what the problem is.

Pete

Will do Pete, Thanks

[bobbyfromnc]

From another post, not mine:

"Flip the Trip 1, Trip 2, Mode selector on the left handlebar to Mode.  Scroll to diagnostics.  Enter the access code(28315) and check your ECU and dash error list. "

Shouldn't take more than a minute or so.

Will do NP, Thanks

[ITSec]

99% of what gets posted on WG is speculation.

Maybe 50% - the rest is largely cross-sniping between friends, exchanging of helpful tips, and posts of varying reliability. And after all, speculation is 'consideration or musing, usually without adequate evidence' - seems to be a good thing for a forum, when we can't actually examine the issue for ourselves!

[alanp]

Hate to be the bearer of potentially bad news but my 2007 Norge had the exact same problem (turn the key, guage sweep, red triangle, bike cranks strong but does not fire).  I spent a lot of time on here and at the dealer.  Down loaded the codes but none of them led to anything (don't remember what they were.)  In my case, the bike would eventually start.  I would just have to turn the key off and wait awhile and try again.  It always started eventually (but not always on the same day!).

I tried the startus interuptus fix, new battery, new clutch switch (that was one of the codes),  and a lot of head scratching, but it never got fixed.  Just became more frequent.  Eventually traded it in to the Suzuki dealer for my vStrom. 

[bobbyfromnc]

Hate to be the bearer of potentially bad news but my 2007 Norge had the exact same problem (turn the key, guage sweep, red triangle, bike cranks strong but does not fire).  I spent a lot of time on here and at the dealer.  Down loaded the codes but none of them led to anything (don't remember what they were.)  In my case, the bike would eventually start.  I would just have to turn the key off and wait awhile and try again.  It always started eventually (but not always on the same day!).

I tried the startus interuptus fix, new battery, new clutch switch (that was one of the codes),  and a lot of head scratching, but it never got fixed.  Just became more frequent.  Eventually traded it in to the Suzuki dealer for my vStrom.

Correct you are Sir... I let the bike set over the weekend after trying everyday last week to start it and whammo Norge started up as if nary a thing transpired 9 days ago... Gone is the red triangle, no SERVICE indicator, ran smoothly. Does this inspire confidence? NO. What if I'm 300 miles from home and it does this crap again? Y'all I swear I truly like this bike, I like the brand, I wanted something different. But I am loosing peace of mind about being stranded or knocked out of riding with friends once again over some mystery problem striking. I've owned Harley's, metrics, never have I had this kind of stuff happen... there have been other issues, dealership had bike 9 weeks during part of summer and fall over oil all over the right cylinder which was fixed with Guzzi corporate involvement. As much as I do like it. I think I will probably trade over this mystery issue.

[canuguzzi]

The codes aren't going to help. I know, there is a diagnostics system but like those found in cars, the reason the codes trip can often be something completely different, there are just a place to start and that was the reason for advising all the other checks.

You're not the only one to have had this issue, mine did it too. Always on a hot day and the engine would spin with the starter but it was as if there was no fuel like a vapor lock. My Norge didn't throw any codes.

After dealing with a randomness of the fuel gauge I finally took it in and they replaced some bits. Since then the problem has never surfaced again. The symptoms were similar to yours.

Now since we are past the codes thing, is your fuel gauge spot on? If it wanders after riding it for a short time going up after going down the streets for a while you might have the known problem (seems most Norges have crappy accuracy with the fuel gauge) it just might be that.

The other symptom is that the fuel gauge reads at 1/4 and then goes to red empty in seconds and a very short time after that fuel warning light and you are empty. The entire time for that to happen is maybe 3-4 minutes.

Like many things, what seems like an inconvenience like a wandering or very inaccurate fuel gauge can cause other problems because no one really knows everything the ECU is doing with every piece of information it has, I don't care what anyone says. Only MG knows and maybe not even them.

If your gauge isn't reliable as in very accurate, get the sensor replaced. The problem is known before it leaves the factory, evidenced by the number of Norge riders who disregard it and use the odometer. The replacement seems to work just fine for a while as mine just started to act up again and hoping it is a fluke.

Ask the dealer to test the gauge at various fill levels to insure the replacement is good (what they did with mine).

Have not had the spin not start since the sensor was replaced. I know, there is no possible way the fuel sensor could affect starting so call it voodoo. Worth a try though.

[blackcat]

Did you pull up the service codes?

[JeffOlson]

Gah! This electronic stuff can be a nightmare. No wonder some guys swear by carbs, no ECU, no ABS, no RBW...

[Kiwi_Roy]

I had this problem with my 07 Norge but it only happened when it was hot outside, in cold weather it wasn't a problem and if it sat for ten minutes or so it would start.  I forgot the code it showed, by it was the consensus of this group that it was the connection to the bike computer. I still have not hunted for the connector (lazy) but from what other's have said this is a dig.  Might this be your problem? Without looking at those codes it is just a guess.

Discounting any codes that may be showing, this sounds like the vapor lock that used to plague the V11s, The fuel in the pump vaporizes and the pump can't get a grip on the gas to move it along until everything cools down'
The gas won't pass through the injectors like liquid as anyone with diesel experience will tell you.

What codes are you getting and what do they mean?

[blackcat]

Discounting any codes that may be showing, this sounds like the vapor lock that used to plague the V11s, The fuel in the pump vaporizes and the pump can't get a grip on the gas to move it along until everything cools down'
The gas won't pass through the injectors like liquid as anyone with diesel experience will tell you.

What codes are you getting and what do they mean?

Roy, This happened quite awhile ago,so I don't remember what came up. I haven't had a problem since it's gotten cool out but it only happened after I parked the bike and it sat for awhile, like a half hour. If I attempted to start the bike right after it was parked, it would start right up.

I just assumed it was some expansion/corrosion issue with the plug on the computer.

[bobbyfromnc]

Norge Pilot.. Thanks for your willingness to be helpful and to the other good folks here on WG. BK

[Chuck in Indiana]

FWIW, it sounds like a fuel issue to me, too, for whatever reason.

[bobbyfromnc]

FWIW, it sounds like a fuel issue to me, too, for whatever reason.

Thanks... I have forwarded this thread to my dealer.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Roy, This happened quite awhile ago,so I don't remember what came up. I haven't had a problem since it's gotten cool out but it only happened after I parked the bike and it sat for awhile, like a half hour. If I attempted to start the bike right after it was parked, it would start right up.

I just assumed it was some expansion/corrosion issue with the plug on the computer.

I believe this was how it showed up in the V11 Sport, it takes time for the heat to get through the rubber hose and vaporize the fuel like 10 minutes after filling up, it will start again straight away because the fuel hasn't had time to get hot. I am only going from hearsay.
I think this only happens in hot climates, never happened with mine in Vancouver but the PO had wrapped a bunch of reflecting tape around the hoses.
The V11 pump is under the tank, I think the Norge is in tank where you would expect it to keep cool but vapor locks are quite strange.
I'm not saying that is the cause but it might be worth keeping in mind.

[blackcat]

I believe this was how it showed up in the V11 Sport, it takes time for the heat to get through the rubber hose and vaporize the fuel like 10 minutes after filling up, it will start again straight away because the fuel hasn't had time to get hot. I am only going from hearsay.
I think this only happens in hot climates, never happened with mine in Vancouver but the PO had wrapped a bunch of reflecting tape around the hoses.
The V11 pump is under the tank, I think the Norge is in tank where you would expect it to keep cool but vapor locks are quite strange.
I'm not saying that is the cause but it might be worth keeping in mind.

The only thing I don't know about this, is that the screen posted a Service Error but maybe the computer reads this vapor lock as a problem? Anyway, this winter I'm going to dig down and find the computer plug and give it a look.

[Don G]

Good luck on the computer plug! Enjoy the experience. DonG

[Wayne Orwig]

Can't be vapor lock. The pump is in the tank submerged in liquid. Everything downstream is pressurized fuel that won't vaporize. And the ECU wouldn't have a clue and throw a code like that.

[blackcat]

My problem from last year, didn't see the problem again but I really need to investigate. Sure is easy to procrastinate when it doesn't happen a year plus later. 

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=72444.0;nowap

[jackson]

Try this:
If your EVAP canister system is still installed, the next time you ride the bike for a few minutes; stop and remove the gas cap.  Make sure your helmet is off so you can hear well and see if you hear a whooshing sound when you remove the gas cap.  If so, your line to the canister is plugged, or the line is plugged.  Also, if the fuel overflow line is plugged from gunk it can do this.  I had this happen on a Vespa scooter that my wife used to own (several times).  It had me totally baffled for a couple of weeks because it would start after it sat for a couple of days and then do it again.  I finally associated it with her filling the tank and went from there.  I removed the evap system and it never did it again.  I later read on a Vespa forum where this had happened to a lot of people.
It may NOT be your specific problem but it's worth checking out.  BTW, this can happen if you overfill the gas tank and too much fuel accumulates in the charcoal canister causing an air blockage, etc etc.   

[Wayne Orwig]

Try this:
If your EVAP canister system is still installed, the next time you ride the bike for a few minutes; stop and remove the gas cap.  Make sure your helmet is off so you can hear well and see if you hear a whooshing sound when you remove the gas cap.  If so, your line to the canister is plugged, or the line is plugged.  Also, if the fuel overflow line is plugged from gunk it can do this.  I had this happen on a Vespa scooter that my wife used to own (several times).  It had me totally baffled for a couple of weeks because it would start after it sat for a couple of days and then do it again.  I finally associated it with her filling the tank and went from there.  I removed the evap system and it never did it again.  I later read on a Vespa forum where this had happened to a lot of people.
It may NOT be your specific problem but it's worth checking out.  BTW, this can happen if you overfill the gas tank and too much fuel accumulates in the charcoal canister causing an air blockage, etc etc.   

Was the Vespa fuel injected?
Did the Vespa show an error code?
Maybe, I don't know Vespas.

[jackson]

Was the Vespa fuel injected?
Did the Vespa show an error code?
Maybe, I don't know Vespas.

It was a modern Vespa with a water cooled, fuel injected 250 cc engine.
I didn't have a code reader that would attach to their plug so I don't know what code it threw.
As I said, after I figured out what the problem was, I found that a lot of other people had experienced the same problem with their modern Vespas (fuel injected models).

[jackson]

ALSO; I re-read all the posts in this thread and a couple of people asked if you can hear the fuel pump priming when you first turn the key to "on".  I couldn't find a post from you where you answered this question.
So, when the engine wouldn't fire, di you hear the pump for several seconds when you first turned the key to "on"?
A faulty fuel pump can work fine until the pump gets hot and then it would not work until it cooled down.
May not be your problem but it's another thing to check.

[blackcat]

Try this:
If your EVAP canister system is still installed,

Nope, someone stole mine.

[bobbyfromnc]

ALSO; I re-read all the posts in this thread and a couple of people asked if you can hear the fuel pump priming when you first turn the key to "on".  I couldn't find a post from you where you answered this question.
So, when the engine wouldn't fire, di you hear the pump for several seconds when you first turned the key to "on"?
A faulty fuel pump can work fine until the pump gets hot and then it would not work until it cooled down.
May not be your problem but it's another thing to check.

Fuel pump primed every time for days.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Can't be vapor lock. The pump is in the tank submerged in liquid. Everything downstream is pressurized fuel that won't vaporize. And the ECU wouldn't have a clue and throw a code like that.

I beg to differ, gasoline is made up of a witches brew of hydrocarbons, some more volatile than others.

Just reading through this Chevron document about gasoline volatility, I don't understand half of what it's talking about, perhaps someone else here can scan through and translate it, in particular the first few pages on vapor lock
http://www.chevron.com/documents/pdf/MotorGasTechReview.pdf
I may be cynical but why would the petroleum companies worry about making gas to suit just a few motorbikes

You may be right about vapor lock but something causes the V11s to be hard starters on a hot day, the bikes probably run a lot hotter than a car, my theory is one of the volatile components flashes off displacing the liquid in the pump.
Some of the posters claim the Norge has trouble on a hot day, what temperature would be possible under the tank?

I agree it's hard to figure what error code it could generate but no one has posted those yet.

 

[bobbyfromnc]

All... The Norge has started and ran fine everyday since the 21st (after 9 days of not starting with warning lights going off on the dash). Hopefully with the unusually warm weather we are having here in NC I'll get a chance to ride a hundred miles or so when the rain clears out. We'll see what happens. Still a mystery to me that it wouldn't start for days then 9 days later starts as if nothing had happened, Gone was the red triangle indicator, gone was the all caps SERVICE indicator. Go figure. Failures and their fixes are one thing, a mystery one is another. 

[blackcat]

Did you pull up the service codes?

?

[Chuck in Indiana]

I beg to differ, gasoline is made up of a witches brew of hydrocarbons, some more volatile than others.

Just reading through this Chevron document about gasoline volatility, I don't understand half of what it's talking about, perhaps someone else here can scan through and translate it, in particular the first few pages on vapor lock
http://www.chevron.com/documents/pdf/MotorGasTechReview.pdf
I may be cynical but why would the petroleum companies worry about making gas to suit just a few motorbikes

You may be right about vapor lock but something causes the V11s to be hard starters on a hot day, the bikes probably run a lot hotter than a car, my theory is one of the volatile components flashes off displacing the liquid in the pump.
Some of the posters claim the Norge has trouble on a hot day, what temperature would be possible under the tank?

I agree it's hard to figure what error code it could generate but no one has posted those yet.

Roy, for sure the early V11 sports would vapor lock. It's a known issue, cured by insulating the fuel line. As Wayne says, I've never heard of a submerged fuel pump vapor locking. I'm not saying it isn't, just I've never heard of it.. :)

[Kiwi_Roy]

Chuck,
          I can't explain it either, why should a modern bike be hard to start when it's been sitting hot for a while, ok if started straight away. Yes I agree it's a lot easier to explain with the V11 with the pump exposed, I have been told they just refuse to prime.
What really peaked my interest was the mention of hot starting issues in the Chevron document under the heading Volatility, Vapor Liquid Ratio and Vapor Lock Index, it must be an issue otherwise why even mention it. I think most modern cars have the pump submersed in a cold tank.
The Vapor liquid index (page 3) is interesting it seems to say after 140°F there's a problem, perhaps someone a lot smarter than me could elaborate on what that means.
I thought a Norge would be even more likely to have a problem with a warm tank and all the heat trapped by Tupperware.
I guess we will have to wait until summer before it happens again. unless someone down under figures it out.
Read the codes guys, we need some feedback

Anyway, it's an interesting discussion I think.

Cheers and Merry Christmas.
Roy