Five speed shifter sticking oddity

[Wayne Orwig]

Recently, the shifter on my 2004 EV has been sticking. Not the linkage from what I can tell. Oddly, only when shifting into third, and only when accelerating. Never heard of such a thing, and I'm not sure I understand how it could do it. Basically, as I accelerate through the gears, when I go into third, the lever sticks. I can either press the lever and force it, so I can shift to fourth, or roll off the throttle for a second and it will spring back by itself as it should. I have had it happen when downshifting into third and accelerating.

The linkages are free. It shifts great for being a clunky old 5 speed. The transmission had the upgraded bearings put in it, and shimmed, about 60,000 miles ago. About 6 months ago I switched to Redline Heavy Duty, to quiet down a noisy fifth gear. Hard to image that is related. Very puzzling. It never jumps out of gear or anything odd, so I can't imagine third gear dogs are too worn. Hard to imagine the shift drum is getting side loaded enough to pinch the shift pawl.

Has anyone ever encountered such a thing?

 

[Chuck in Indiana]

I know we're talking apples and oranges, but on the V11S pre selector, the return spring is so heavy that it puts a divot in the shift pawl. That can cause sticking on down shifts.

[Kiwi Dave]

Recently, the shifter on my 2004 EV has been sticking. Not the linkage from what I can tell. Oddly, only when shifting into third, and only when accelerating. Never heard of such a thing, and I'm not sure I understand how it could do it. Basically, as I accelerate through the gears, when I go into third, the lever sticks. I can either press the lever and force it, so I can shift to fourth, or roll off the throttle for a second and it will spring back by itself as it should. I have had it happen when downshifting into third and accelerating.

Has anyone ever encountered such a thing?

Symptoms are similar to what I experienced on a 96 Cali 1100 many years ago.  I appreciate that you have replaced the input bearing, but this is what failed on my machine.

Perhaps you will have to remove the gearbox to get a better idea of what's goling on.  I appreciate that this is not a small task, but winter is approaching and probably the best time to do it.  Good luck.

[Wayne Orwig]

Symptoms are similar to what I experienced on a 96 Cali 1100 many years ago.  I appreciate that you have replaced the input bearing, but this is what failed on my machine.

Perhaps you will have to remove the gearbox to get a better idea of what's goling on.  I appreciate that this is not a small task, but winter is approaching and probably the best time to do it.  Good luck.

Yea. I sort of need to replace fifth anyway. The faces are a bit worn from towing that camper too many tens of thousands of miles.

Mainly , it is such an oddity, I am just curious what is going on right now.

I may tear into it this winter. Or I may be at a beach bar in Florida, still wondering why it does it. 

[80CX100]

About 6 months ago I switched to Redline Heavy Duty, to quiet down a noisy fifth gear.

     The 5 speed in my CX100 had always worked perfect.

     The last time I changed gear & diff fluids,,, the moly I added to the diff oil, had been marketed as an excellent manual transmission additive, so after I finished with the diff, I thought it would be a good idea to dump some of the left over gear oil/moly mix into my transmission.

     Shortly thereafter, I did a sloppy coasting downshift from 5th,,, the tranny locked in 5th and I had to do some major mcgyvering to get it out of 5th and ended up in a false neutral from hell. The tranny seemed to settle down after major dicking around with it.

     The tranny then worked fine, not noisy at all,,, but I kept a close eye on things and found lots of metal scarf in 2 gear oil changes.

     Apparently Moly (not sure what is in Heavy Red Shock oil) is great for gears but bearings hate the stuff,,, I think my thrust bearing is gone inside, but just a wag, fwiw.

      Kelly

[jacksonracingcomau]

I know we're talking apples and oranges, but on the V11S pre selector, the return spring is so heavy that it puts a divot in the shift pawl. That can cause sticking on down shifts.

No, fruit is fruit, same thing happened on my race bike in 80’s, took me a while to find it, nice little notch where it stuck. Not sure spring is to blame, haven’t had it happen again

[voncrump]

Years ago I saw a T3 gearbox that was stripped because of a shifting problem.
Some flash gearbox additive had built up a heavy sticky varnish on the pins that the selectors slide on.
A clean up with wet and dry and it was fixed.
When you have a look inside check for this problem.
Cheers, voncrump

[pete roper]

My only suggestion for something to try before you pull it to bits is just flush the box with a 1/2 and 1/2 mixture of Kero and oil on the stand to flush out the Redline and then refill with whatever yak fat you used before. If it stops doing it there's the problem. But I suspect you'll probably need to pull the box.

Worn shaft or selector dog spline maybe? But you usually only see that on fifth.

Pete

[Wayne Orwig]

Thanks for the thoughts Pete.

Yah, I think I'll flush the pink milkshake and see if that changes anything.

Weird one for sure.

[Cdn850T5NT]

I have heard some folks say that some Redline lubricants have a tendency to either centrifuge-out or drop out some components or additives from the lubricant package. Though many sing praises for Redline lubricants  - it gives me just a bit of pause.

[Mr Revhead]

Redline won't cause any issues. Most likely there was an already developing one and Redline being in it was just a coincidence. They stuff is made for these type of boxes, and is used in many much harder living ones that these.

And how can can you use 5th with a sidecar?! I never use 5th! unless seriously breaking the law

[D Knaus]

I had a strange shift sequence many years ago on my 97 Sporti.  It would shift up a couple of gears then act like it was in high gear with no resistance to pulling the lever up.  I would go back down a gear, and then it would shift normal to high gear.  Same thing going down, it would act like it was in low gear then I would go back up one and it would downshift normally.  It turned out the nut on the output shaft had stripped, letting that shaft move.  the shift forks had slightly worn from the shaft moving, and the metal filings had gotten in the shift pawl, making it stick.

[fotoguzzi]

.

And how can can you use 5th with a sidecar?! I never use 5th! unless seriously breaking the law

nobody said anything about a sidecar.

[Wayne Orwig]

I have heard some folks say that some Redline lubricants have a tendency to either centrifuge-out or drop out some components or additives from the lubricant package. Though many sing praises for Redline lubricants  - it gives me just a bit of pause.

Yes, I have worked in transmissions that had it. It tends to appear to separate the solids. Makes a mess almost like old time motor oil sludge. Not that that is a bad or good thing. I mainly tried it do to the fifth gear teeth faces being worn a touch, which tends to make a LOT of noise. And yes, the redline does quiet it down. (said the nearly deaf guy)

But I will soon flush it out and try it.
 

[Mr Revhead]

nobody said anything about a sidecar.

You're right, it was towing a camper!

Redline turning to sludge or "separating" is quite probably it being left in there too long, or remnants of the previous fluid. 

Interestingly the only separated or sludgy stuff I've found in my Guzzis is from previous owners using separate "moly" additives. It tends to run out first as it just sits in the bottom.
Everything I've used Redline in has always run out nice and pink and consistant  The bits I've had apart that had Redline in it, were very clean except for the pink stuff which gets EVERYWHERE inside, just what you want! It's surprising how much of the stuff is still inside bearings and gears even when sitting to drain for a week.

Seeing as this box developed a noisy 5th a while back, it sounds like there was already wear before Redline was added, if wear has started, or already gone through the hardening then a different oil won't help.

[kirby1923]

     The 5 speed in my CX100 had always worked perfect.

     The last time I changed gear & diff fluids,,, the moly I added to the diff oil, had been marketed as an excellent manual transmission additive, so after I finished with the diff, I thought it would be a good idea to dump some of the left over gear oil/moly mix into my transmission.

     Shortly thereafter, I did a sloppy coasting downshift from 5th,,, the tranny locked in 5th and I had to do some major mcgyvering to get it out of 5th and ended up in a false neutral from hell. The tranny seemed to settle down after major dicking around with it.

     The tranny then worked fine, not noisy at all,,, but I kept a close eye on things and found lots of metal scarf in 2 gear oil changes.

     Apparently Moly (not sure what is in Heavy Red Shock oil) is great for gears but bearings hate the stuff,,, I think my thrust bearing is gone inside, but just a wag, fwiw.

      Kelly

FWIW

I've been running red line in my CX(trans) for 'bout 20K miles and it has made the trans shift better and its less noisy!

Slippery stuff indeed.

Think I'll "stick" with it.

:-)

[80CX100]

FWIW

I've been running red line in my CX(trans) for 'bout 20K miles and it has made the trans shift better and its less noisy!

Slippery stuff indeed.

Think I'll "stick" with it.

:-)

     I don't know what's in RedLine & I've never used it.

     After I had added some left over moly and had trouble shortly thereafter in my Tonti 5 speed, I looked hard into the Moly as possibly being related.

     I learned that there is a chemical/electrical reaction and the Moly bonds to the surface of the metals, which is great for protecting gear faces or anywhere metal to metal contact/protection is desired.

     But apparently Moly bonding to bearing/races/grooves/valleys etc can actually "gunk up" and prevent free movement etc apparently especially so with needle bearings.

     I'm only guessing at this point but from looking at the construction of the tranny and the pitfalls of "lazy coasting downshifts", I'm surmising that the small thrust bearing at the end of the mainshaft was gunked up and didn't move freely distributing the load and failed, and is the source of the scarf I later found.

    Only a wag and a theory at this point,,, but I know, I'll never put Moly in my tranny again,,, no matter what the label on the bottle says,lol.

    Kelly

[Two Checks]

Based on experience, if RL can handle 700+ hp in a dirt late model our ditch pump trannies won't phase it.

[Wayne Orwig]

Geez, it has turned into an oil thread. 

[Roebling3]

I'm with Kelly! (80CX100). The man speaketh the truth. Why do you suppose the RL quiets a gear box? It's cushioning, of course. Every time you add Molybdenum to a gear case it goes into solution with what ever is remaining in the box, if you've not flushed the gear box thoroughly as / P. Roper.
Moly sticks to almost any surface, especially itself. It is supposed to. That's why it is so affective - most times. It takes very little build-up to cause flow blockage at the hundreds of corners and interstices within any roller or ball bearing application. I doubt the coloring has much if anything to do with performance. It does remind you of what brand oil is supposed to be lubricating your gear box.  Good fortune,  R3~

[kirby1923]

No moly in Red line, they have developed some other kind of slippery stuff which is proprietery.

They don't recommend it for sycro type transmissions because it is so slick that there is not enough friction to spin up the syncros properly.
Sure tames my CX transmission! Only constant mesh for RL.

:-)

[Two Checks]

Red Line makes two types of GL-5 for older transmissions with synchros. It doesn't have the friction modifiers.

[wymple]

Mine got to where it would stick, only on the upshift, and would not downshift. I was sure something had broken inside the trans case, so I pulled the whole thing out & sent it to over to Ron at R&K in Illinois. Turned out to be a tiny spot of rusty corrosion on the pawl (?) that swings one way to upshift, the other way to down shift. It was sticking and not returning to center. That may not be an adequate description, I'm no trans guy, but I could have fixed it easily if I had known what was happening. It was just sticky and all he did was polish the piece. I would have drained it and filled it full of Evap-Rust, and let it set for a few days, then flushed it good.  My little problem would have been gone. It won't harm anything, I've soaked old gun parts for a week. Comes out nice & clean & a good size jug of it costs about 20 bucks. At least I had him put in new clutch plates while it was out. BTW, the trans is far North of 100K and shows no signs of age in there.