Moto Guzzi isn't Honda

[oldbike54]

What about that whole "You meet the nicest people on a Guzzi" campaign??  Was that just a load of mele stradali??

 Maybe most unique , or most unusual , or my preference , weirdest might work better 
 
 Dusty

[giusto]

If it's got two wheels and a motor, I'm interested.
First bike I purchased myself at 16...was 1974 CL 360...I loved that bike. I have a 74 cl360 now that is perfect for Northern Michigan gravel roads...and a 75 cb450 that is an awesome machine....man oh man talk about tight valve tolerances. We're all here cause we like a particular Italian product. I like many Italian products. Italian women especially.

[Scud]

Here's another Honda story from my book (but summarized, not quoted).

Soichiro personally worked with the team that designed the CVCC engine in the early 1970s. CVCC stands for Compound Vortex Controlled Combustion - and later morphed into the Civic name for one of their cars. Essentially, they invented dual-port induction whereby a rich and lean mixture are both introduced to the chamber to enable fuller combustion with less fuel. These cars were the first to pass US EPA's stringent (for the time) guidelines, and they did it without pumps, catalytic converters, and other "clean-up" devices that all the other manufacturers were using. The book describes Honda's philosophy of solving problems at the source - not after they happened. It was natural for him to try to make the fuel burn cleaner in the first place, and unnatural for him to try to clean the exhaust gas. This philosophy is also why he argued against helmet laws, and instead argued for safety features such as disc brakes, better lighting, etc. He was focused on reducing accidents, more than on reducing injury after accidents. This philosophy also influenced his major contribution to rider education.

This is not a Honda commercial, and I don't even have a Honda to defend (at the moment...). But I sure would like to see more people like Soichiro leading companies today.

FWIW - I missed two previously owned Hondas in my earlier post. I had an XR70 and CRF100, kid-size dirt-bikes for my daughters. One word: In-freakin-destructible.

[rocker59]

Its like old English sports cars and a few of my girl friends....you got to like a little pain to enjoy.


:-)

Exactly!   

[cruzziguzzi]

No, and my Gramma don't have wheels...

But then, from where I sit, these days... Honda isn't really Honda anymore and Moto Guzzi hasn't been Moto Guzzi since the onset of MAP dependancy and genuflecting to Euro/CARB nazis and don't even get me started on this fad of "tubeless" tires!

But then, like Gino said: Things change.

Todd.

[trippah]

My Honda S-90, and then the Honda 305 Superhawk -were both unique to me vehicles - they always ran, no problems.  Actually my second NGB ran perfectly for the first two years of its life.  But it was mostly Honda that taught me that reliable and vehicle were not mutually exclusive terms.

[oldbike54]

 Interesting how this has turned into a Honda thread . As stated earlier , we aren't bashing Honda , they have built wonderful products for years . What we were pointing out is the complete waste of time that attempting to turn MG into Honda is . Produced from two very different cultures , both corporate and national .

 Dusty

[keener]

I have some Honda experience that i should share with those that think the sun shines out of Soichrio,s  butt ...
i worked for a large shop for 3 years that sold and serviced Honda motorcycles as well as Yamaha and Suzuki ..
In that time as compared to Suzuki , and Yamaha ...Honda had the lions share of service work covered by warranty and also as to recall on defective parts from factory.
Mechanics found them tedious to work on and therefore more labor intensive then the other brands.
At another shop that specialized in performance gain it was far more expensive to do a Honda up rather than a Suzuki for example as a Honda was built to run stock and a Suzuki was overbuilt , heavier stock bearings , clutch , valve train etc .
long story short it cost a lot less to gain HP/ performance from a 4 stroke Kawasaki , or  Suzuki that most any Honda model.
Yes Honda was innovative, but in reality as the expense of complexity whereas their competition got the job done by engine simplicity and durability.
I am not saying Honda's competition wasn't fail safe but over all they were better motorcycles ..in my opinion as well as my co workers at the time..
       
 

[Scud]

Is this a Honda thread? Well, if I may be so bold... Honda is in the subject line. To discuss the topic we need to talk about Honda a bit - to facilitate comparisons to Guzzi.

As for the land of the rising Soichiro Butt-sun... I am impressed by the man. But that doesn't mean that I think everything that bears his name is automatically good. There are plenty of undesirable Hondas.

I had two Yamaha inline fours - a 600cc Radian and an FJ1100. Both were trouble-free for many miles. The FJ was one of my favorite bikes - an absolute beast. Every time I see one I think "I should get another one of those." I've never been moved enough by anything in the Suzuki or Kawasaki line to own one.

[Dean Rose]

Exactly...  Too many people around here pissing and crying because Guzzi isn't like Honda or Yamaha or Toyota or whatever big mega company.

Too may threads crying "why doesn't Guzzi do what ______ mega company does".

It's getting old.  Real old.

 :1:


Dean

[Chuck in Indiana]

Is this a Honda thread? Well, if I may be so bold... Honda is in the subject line. To discuss the topic we need to talk about Honda a bit - to facilitate comparisons to Guzzi.

As for the land of the rising Soichiro Butt-sun... I am impressed by the man. But that doesn't mean that I think everything that bears his name is automatically good. There are plenty of undesirable Hondas.

I had two Yamaha inline fours - a 600cc Radian and an FJ1100. Both were trouble-free for many miles. The FJ was one of my favorite bikes - an absolute beast. Every time I see one I think "I should get another one of those." I've never been moved enough by anything in the Suzuki or Kawasaki line to own one.

Oh, yeah.. me, too.
That said, those early V4s were a nightmare. Constant valve issues.. FINALLY cured by tapping into the main oil gallery and fabricating oil lines to feed the top end. Not for the faint of heart or someone that gripes about taking the pan off a Guzzi. 
Edit: Oh, forgot the "complicated just because they could engineering.." 4 carbs and the parts aren't interchangeable. (!) Adjusting the valves requires a midget monkey, and if he *drops* something, it's in the belly of the beast, requiring a tear down. (!!)
Gimme an 80s Guzzi any day.

[canuguzzi]

Interesting how this has turned into a Honda thread . As stated earlier , we aren't bashing Honda , they have built wonderful products for years . What we were pointing out is the complete waste of time that attempting to turn MG into Honda is . Produced from two very different cultures , both corporate and national .

 Dusty

Who wants to turn MG into Honda? Haven't seen any of that here on any thread.

Updating MG bikes doesn't make them any less MG, it makes them better for a lot of people. Like old muscle cars of the 60s and early 70s there will always be a market of highly dedicated purists who think they stopped making cars after that and everything since is rather gummed up. The reality is that those old cars can't compete with their new model counterparts without being completely remade so they end up being something else anyway. Most of those older cars were downright miserable as they left the showrooms but nostalgia, like the soft lens, makes craggy look beautiful.

Motorcycles are like that too. How many old Guzzis run around stock as they came and compare in any measure of performance to the new? Sure, after it is remade in the image of the owner or in the case of the collector, a short trip to stir the emotional pot but then in most cases, its not what was made.

I think the reason there is the talk about modernizing or updating is because people want to see a MG for sale next year and the year after, not just a rehash of the old or the used being resold to an ever smaller group of purists.

Nothing wrong with purist as that is what maintains heritage and the roots back to fond memories but the future is more than that. If MG keeps being a small exclusive club then eventually, and that time seems to getting much closer, future generations won't be able to enjoy them, not because they don't like MG bikes but because what they want in a motorcycle isn't really tolerated or seen as necessary.

Well, money is necessary to maintain a company and to build bikes. No money, no company, no bikes. That might even bring a certain satisfaction to some because then they'd have someone no one else going forward would be able to get. The so long as I have mine thinking never promoted a future for anything.

I image that the guy with the old Challenger smirks at the guy who buys a new one and sees in it a shell of past but true glory. The guy who just bought a new one though, can drive it across the country in relative comfort without pulling a snap-on trailer full of tools behind him.

[LowRyter]

I have some Honda experience that i should share with those that think the sun shines out of Soichrio,s  butt ...
i worked for a large shop for 3 years that sold and serviced Honda motorcycles as well as Yamaha and Suzuki ..
In that time as compared to Suzuki , and Yamaha ...Honda had the lions share of service work covered by warranty and also as to recall on defective parts from factory.
Mechanics found them tedious to work on and therefore more labor intensive then the other brands.
At another shop that specialized in performance gain it was far more expensive to do a Honda up rather than a Suzuki for example as a Honda was built to run stock and a Suzuki was overbuilt , heavier stock bearings , clutch , valve train etc .
long story short it cost a lot less to gain HP/ performance from a 4 stroke Kawasaki , or  Suzuki that most any Honda model.
Yes Honda was innovative, but in reality as the expense of complexity whereas their competition got the job done by engine simplicity and durability.
I am not saying Honda's competition wasn't fail safe but over all they were better motorcycles ..in my opinion as well as my co workers at the time..
     

my 1200 Bandit has been pretty solid with 80k miles and runs like a raped ape.  I have a Bandit friend that has 130k+ miles on his. 

Mine was the last iteration of all the Japanese air cooled 4 cyl performance machines.

[canuguzzi]

Oh, yeah.. me, too.
That said, those early V4s were a nightmare. Constant valve issues.. FINALLY cured by tapping into the main oil gallery and fabricating oil lines to feed the top end. Not for the faint of heart or someone that gripes about taking the pan off a Guzzi. 
Edit: Oh, forgot the "complicated just because they could engineering.." 4 carbs and the parts aren't interchangeable. (!) Adjusting the valves requires a midget monkey, and if he *drops* something, it's in the belly of the beast, requiring a tear down. (!!)
Gimme an 80s Guzzi any day.

Had three early-mid 80s Honda V4, not a single issue with cams, valves or any other component. I did install an oil kit in the last V65, if you can change oil and screw on a filter you can install the oil kit, no fabrication needed and it takes very little time.

The valves rarely need adjusting, just a check once in a while and in many many miles, no change.

The guys that started them cold and immediately saw fit to drag the street? Lots of problems.

Look what they became though and the opportunities they gave the company to develop better engines and bikes.

[keener]

my 1200 Bandit has been pretty solid with 80k miles and runs like a raped ape.  I have a Bandit friend that has 130k+ miles on his. 

Mine was the last iteration of all the Japanese air cooled 4 cyl performance machines.

i have one aswell 1998 1200  love the thing , upgraded the Suspension , changed out the cam chain tensioner  and that besides regular maintenance  no problems at 85000 km ..those old GSXR motors are truly remarkable ... 

[charlie b]

Honda.  Love and hate.  Loved the innovation.  But, especially these days, the translation of that into a street bike is a bit weird.  These days Honda seems to be a wannabe, not on the leading edge of anything.

I really, really regret not getting a V45 when they came out (to replace my CB500-4).  I think the ST was a good bike too, but, a bit heavy.  Early Gold Wings were nice.  Nowdays not so much.

And I agree on the maintenance problems and difficulties. 

I had to work with Honda engineers for a while in a previous job.  Their system is horrible.  As in, once the design is signed off, it is almost NEVER changed.  Even if a newer version is better and cheaper.  And complexity is considered a good thing.

[canuguzzi]

Don't see the people riding Hondas ragging on those who ride MG bikes, at least not like you see in the reverse here.

Maybe that is one reason so may people buy something else, they see the whole my Moto Guzzi has soul or whatever and nothing else does like the kids who wouldn't play with anyone else because they had steelies and cat eyes and everyone else just had regular marbles. So they move on, enjoy why they have and don't look down on what other people ride because everyone is riding a motorcycle.

MG wants to sell more bikes, a lot more. If they didn't they wouldn't have made the Roamer -V9 or MGX-21.

Every motorcycle has character or should or whatever you want to call it.

Some people have figured it out, others never will. Their loss because there is so much more to experience than a Moto Guzzi in motorcycling. The Moto Guzzis are great bikes to ride but it doesn't start and end there.

Honda might have goofed on cams in their V4 engines in the mid 80s but Moto Guzzi, over 20 years later did far worse, some didn't eat themselves, all the engines of a type did. Who has a better time, the owner rebuilding the engine or the one riding?

[Kev m]

Every motorcycle has character or should or whatever you want to call it.

Actually no. Not as the term is colloquially used. Though to be pedantic of course all bikes have some sort of character, just the character of some sucks.

Like black is the absence of color the "character" of some bikes is to be appliance like. To have no more soul than my Keurig or my dishwasher. Bland is not a flavor.

Character, soul, etc. means there's something about the interaction of man and machine that causes the man to anthropomorphize the machine. Something about the way it provides feedback from the motor, the suspension, the feel of the switches or relative feedback of the throttle all combine to speak to the rider.

Not everyone will agree on what speaks to them, but I've observed that far fewer will hear a siren song from a bland appliance and call it character or soul.

But then some people are more boring than others.

[blackcat]

I rode a friends Goldwing for about 10 miles while he road my Daytona and I couldn't wait to get off that bike. It had about as much character as an Accord. He kept it a little longer and then sold it; great bike if you want to ride on the freeway all day but I'd rather drive an Accord in lieu of the Goldwing. 

A CBR would probably be more to my liking, but I'd probably kill myself.  A 250L would be cool, but used because I would be dropping that thing on a regular basis with that 34 inch seat height.

[oldbike54]

Guzzi is that indy hippie Italian cafe in the dodgy part of town.  The arch opposite of Olive Garden.

No matter how many yuppies discover it and want to make it something it's not,  it remains the indy hippie Italian cafe in the dodgy part of town, and can never be Olive Garden...

Damn.  I'm getting hungry...

 At the risk of sounding like some of the Harley rider rhetoric from the past , you either understand this concept , or you don't . Yeah , Guzzi can certainly improve some things , and they seem to be getting there , but let's be honest here fellas , most long term Guzzi riders enjoy being involved in our weird little cult . Honda is Honda , Moto Guzzi is Moto Guzzi .

 Dusty

[kingoffleece]

As a very good friend of mine says on a regular basis: "There's no accounting for some peoples' taste."

[Chuck in Indiana]

At the risk of sounding like some of the Harley rider rhetoric from the past , you either understand this concept , or you don't . Yeah , Guzzi can certainly improve some things , and they seem to be getting there , but let's be honest here fellas , most long term Guzzi riders enjoy being involved in our weird little cult . Honda is Honda , Moto Guzzi is Moto Guzzi .

 Dusty

Yeah, those of us that have been around Guzzi a *lot* longer than N.P. have heard arguments like his for years. It's a different motorcycle designed and built by a different culture, and they haven't changed.. will not change their way of life or doing business. You either take Guzzi for what it is, or move on. <shrug> Honestly, they don't care.. at least that's my take.

[cruzziguzzi]

As a very good friend of mine says on a regular basis: "There's no accounting for some peoples' taste."

Just a matter of seasoning.


Todd.

[steven c]

 My favorite thing about my 75 CB550K I had back in the late 70's was the Saint Elmos fire you would get between your legs when you rode in the rain at night. I put on some Accel spark plug wires Dyna coils and that cured that. Also a Yosh cam and a Kerker four into one made it fun.
 I remember the review I think it was Cycle, on the Lemans III they said something like " this is a bike Japen would never build" kind of sums it up and we like it that way!

[keener]

Actually no. Not as the term is colloquially used. Though to be pedantic of course all bikes have some sort of character, just the character of some sucks.

Like black is the absence of color the "character" of some bikes is to be appliance like. To have no more soul than my Keurig or my dishwasher. Bland is not a flavor.

Character, soul, etc. means there's something about the interaction of man and machine that causes the man to anthropomorphize the machine. Something about the way it provides feedback from the motor, the suspension, the feel of the switches or relative feedback of the throttle all combine to speak to the rider.

Not everyone will agree on what speaks to them, but I've observed that far fewer will hear a siren song from a bland appliance and call it character or soul.

But then some people are more boring than others.

plus 1

[LowRyter]

i have one aswell 1998 1200  love the thing , upgraded the Suspension , changed out the cam chain tensioner  and that besides regular maintenance  no problems at 85000 km ..those old GSXR motors are truly remarkable ...

Mine has a Progressive Rear Shock, Race Tech springs and Gold Valves, Jetted, K&N, Advancer and Micron Slip on.

[LowRyter]

Yeah, those of us that have been around Guzzi a *lot* longer than N.P. have heard arguments like his for years. It's a different motorcycle designed and built by a different culture, and they haven't changed.. will not change their way of life or doing business. You either take Guzzi for what it is, or move on. <shrug> Honestly, they don't care.. at least that's my take.

You'd probably yell "get off my lawn"

<shrug>

[canuguzzi]

Yeah, those of us that have been around Guzzi a *lot* longer than N.P. have heard arguments like his for years. It's a different motorcycle designed and built by a different culture, and they haven't changed.. will not change their way of life or doing business. You either take Guzzi for what it is, or move on. <shrug> Honestly, they don't care.. at least that's my take.

That comes under the "its always been done that way", most often heard when someone dares ask why. There usually is no reason but that is passed off as one. Many of us have heard that in organizations faced with change.

There are the people who long ago got comfortable and maybe even com placement and faced with change are hesitant to examine their own beliefs, it isn't necessary or even beneficial because " its always been done that way".

Moto Guzzi isn't and would jot pay for out of warranty flat tappet repair (including labor". Why? Because its always been done that way and being an Italian company they are just that way.

Well, we sure know that wasn't true. But it wasn't the owners who have been around Guzzi a lot longer than me and get the whole Guzzi cult thing, it was others, new to the game who figured it out.

MG is changing and will continue to change, much to the chagrine of many that have been around Guzzi a long time.

The Honda Gold Wing might be souless to some. To other they are the pinnacle of motorcycle touring innovation. Yet how many Gold Wing owners look down upon someone riding a Moto Guzzi? You'd probably be hard pressed to find them and if they exist you'll probably have to dig long, hard and deep. Here though, it seems to badge of honor.

Every motorcycle his soul or character or personality. Some riders have the ability to connect in some way to any motorcycle while others can manage to find it in only one brand.

Its the same with people, many can find value in all and connect with them on some level while others can't. Neither is right or wrong but mostly neither is wring and that does bother some. That would be the "its always been done that way" group.

Every motorcycle, regardless of who makes it has a soul, character or personality to offer us. Enjoy them all, demean none because we're all different and who are any if us to judge in any way what someone else rides?

[Dean Rose]

If you got one (Guzzi) and don't like it sell the Damn thing and get on with your life. Pretty simple, and then we wouldn't have to listen to you bitch.


Dean 

[rocker59]

Sorta like the joke about the Californians moving out of California to get away from all the BS, moving to Colorado, then immediately working to change Colorado "for the better".  Which is actually for the worse, just like the place they came from...

This thread is not about any other brand.  This thread is about Moto Guzzi being like Colorado.