Wildguzzi.com

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: brider on August 06, 2018, 01:41:36 PM

Title: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: brider on August 06, 2018, 01:41:36 PM
...on chain-drive bikes.

Felt like I needed to vent after a relaxing work-break walking around the parking lot looking at the various new cars/trucks. stumbled onto a guy who obviously missed the M/C parking area, it was a VERY new-looking Kaw Versys, with a chain that was bone-dry and waaaaay too lose. The chain plates actually had light surface rust on them.

It's just a peeve of mine, but I'll bet the bike is still in it's break-in period and before the owner takes it back in for it's 1k-mile tune-up or something like that. Owner was probably told it's an O-ring chain and doesn't need any maintenance (including adjusting it's slack).

I feel better now.

One curious design feature of this bike was it's exhaust location: It exited (2-into-1) behind the right footpeg, right under the rider's butt. That doesn't seem right, for some reason.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: fotoguzzi on August 06, 2018, 02:58:10 PM
if it is still in breakin mileage it's hard to believe the chain would stretch that much. maybe once the rider loads the suspension the chain not as loose? I know mine "looks" loose when parked on the centerstand, the chain actually touches the CS and "looks" out of adjustment. I thought I had a lot of chain slap,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxkszWGICD8

was told buy the experts that's normal for a well adjusted chain.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Ncdan on August 06, 2018, 03:06:05 PM
No chain on a motorcycle period, for me.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Rusnak_322 on August 06, 2018, 03:14:44 PM
Chain lube is great if your goal is to collect dust & dirt on your chain and fling crap onto your wheels.

100k+ miles using quality chains cleaned with WD-40 and never any issues. Plus I am partial to white wheels and clean bikes.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: brider on August 06, 2018, 03:51:55 PM

100k+ miles using quality chains cleaned with WD-40 and never any issues. Plus I am partial to white wheels and clean bikes.

Maybe I'm out-of-touch and need to re-adjust my thinking on his. My experience has only been with dirt bikes, but the chain I looked at today looked just like the standard 520 o-ring chains I used to run on my bikes. I always cleaned and lubed them, figured that's why they sell Bel-Ray and PJ-1 chain lube. Didn't occur to me that I could rely on the internal factory lube, I figured the O-rings were a barrier, but not take-it-to-the-bank barrier, to dirt, so an external lube would be a good idea. The idea of O-rings in that environment continually sliding against the side plates comes to mind.

Don't manufacturers (of road bikes) recommend something OTHER than WD-40 for chain lube?

As far as slack, on a 10-inch-travel dirt bike the top-to-bottom slack was never more than 40 mm or so, but that had a lot to do with the distance between the swingarm pivot and the countershaft sprocket (very close). Maybe that distance is far greater on the bike I observed, requiring more slack if the rear axle/pivot/sprocket are waaay out of line.

What about that exhaust location?
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Perazzimx14 on August 06, 2018, 04:18:04 PM
Scott oiler on my DL650 for 15,000 miles and never had to adjust or clean the chain. Every 600 to 800 miles top up the reservoir with a few ounces of ATF and ride on. I recently sold the bike and the chain was cleaner than the day I put the Scott oiler on.


Continious oilers worjk a treat. Not only to the continuously lubricate the chain they countinally clean it as well. As the oil is added dirt sticks to it and eventially becomes to heavy to stick an is flung free from the schain and sprockets. Also if the oile is set up properly they are no dirtier than whatever chain lube you are currently using. 

Modern chains coupled with a continious oiler makes owning a chain drive bike a breezez and almost as maintnenace free as a shaft drive.

Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Lannis on August 06, 2018, 06:34:20 PM
We use the terminology "stretch" but no metal actually stretches as a chain wears ... it's the cumulative effect of the wear between 100 pin-to-bushing joints.   Only .001" wear on each one translates into 1/10" lengthening of the chain overall.

When you lube an older non-O-ring chain, the purpose is to allow chain lube to penetrate the plate-pin-bushing joints and keep those contact surfaces lubed; that's why soaking it in hot grease or hot chain-saw oil (very thick stuff) and letting it cool and drip dry is best for those.

For an O-ring or X-ring chain, the "lube" actually treats the ring seals themselves, to keep them pliable so that they can do their job of keeping the original lube inside the chain.   Scott-Oilers or similar continuous oilers are good ways to treat any chain.

A set of chains and sprockets should last 25,000 miles or more, then get changed at once.    When you compare, over 120,000 miles or more, the relative cost and hassle of dealing with changing rear drive oil, transmission seals, U-joint issues, carrier-bearing issues, spline-greasing issues, rear-drive seal issues (all the things that are discussed here), it's questionable whether a shaft drive really IS that much better than a continuously lubed chain, changed on a regular basis.

I don't often hear about those direct, objective cost and reliability comparisons, though.   It's generally "religious" type arguments ("I will only have a shaft drive because Man was meant to not have chains any more") and such.   I've had many of both and I think the pros and cons almost balance out ....

Lannis
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Bud on August 06, 2018, 06:57:37 PM
     51,000 mile on my 1996 Honda Shadow Ace 1100 shaft with zero problems. I have changed the fluid maybe twice in 30,000 mi.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Lannis on August 06, 2018, 08:02:19 PM
     51,000 mile on my 1996 Honda Shadow Ace 1100 shaft with zero problems. I have changed the fluid maybe twice in 30,000 mi.

Absolutely, when a shaft drive works and lasts like you'd hope, they can be cheaper and less trouble than a chain.

But if you scan back JUST this WG list over the years and review the litany of issues that have happened to people (which I listed in my post as "changing rear drive oil, transmission seals, U-joint issues, carrier-bearing issues, spline-greasing issues, rear-drive seal issues", none of which happen to a chain), the average of the comparison comes way way down ....

Lannis
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Guzzistajohn on August 06, 2018, 08:36:27 PM
It’s easy to diagnose a chain issue. It’s in plain sight. No surprises.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: fotoguzzi on August 06, 2018, 10:13:41 PM
What Lannis said,,, and
"A chain drive system is preferred in almost all the super sports bikes because of the fact that the percentage of power loss in a chain drive mechanism is as little as almost 3%. Also, a chain drive system is capable enough to deal with high level torque produced in these machines, and almost all the dirt bikes and drag-focussed motorcycles feature a chain dive mechanism." "The power loss in shaft drive is really high, about 25%,"google

Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Rough Edge racing on August 07, 2018, 06:47:49 AM
 I agree with what Lannis says about chain lube... My Ducati has a Tsubaki O ring, the 79 Triumph a non o ring DID... I like chains because they are so simple and mechanical. The Ducati has a minimal original chain guard and the Triumph guard is missing... Yes the chain  flings crap around, but I never wash bikes so I just wipe off the stuff from time to time..A motorcycle is a machine ,and grease and oil messes are signs it has been maintained   :wink:
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Lcarlson on August 07, 2018, 07:52:01 AM
After I sold my Ducati Diavel several years ago, I swore I’d never own another bike with chain drive. However, I recently relented. I’ve got to say, with a factory centerstand, it’s really not much trouble to lube an O-ring chain every 600 miles or so (the manufacturer-recommended minimum). On the recommendation of Jim Hamlin, l use a paraffin-based chain lube applied to a hot chain and allowed to set up overnight.  By morning it’s mostly dry and there’s no fling at all. And I doubt that I’ll have to adjust it much — if at all — between regular dealer service intervals. Chains aren’t so bad.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: brider on August 07, 2018, 08:10:40 AM
I agree with what Lannis says about chain lube... My Ducati has a Tsubaki O ring, the 79 Triumph a non o ring DID... I like chains because they are so simple and mechanical. The Ducati has a minimal original chain guard and the Triumph guard is missing... Yes the chain  flings crap around, but I never wash bikes so I just wipe off the stuff from time to time..A motorcycle is a machine ,and grease and oil messes are signs it has been maintained   :wink:

To add to my original statements that started this thread: I have no beef against chains at all, in fact I have a LOT of experience from my 30+ years of dirt-biking. I was ALWAYS cleaning, oiling, and adjusting chains. But I have NEVER owned a street-bike with a chain, just happened that way. So when I admire street bikes at a show, rally, or in a parking lot, my dirt-biking habits come to the surface and I look at the chain/sprocket condition. I will admit now that my chain-slack calibrations may be skewed comparing apples-to-oranges (dirt bikes vs street), but my gut tells me that some street riders don't pay attention, and my suspicions are often confirmed when I hear a street rider moving slowly thru a parking lot and you can HEAR the chain. THAT was my original beef. I think looking at a street-bike chain with surface rust on the side plates LOOKS bad, if nothing else. Apologies to those who like a nice, clean chain; I prefer the look of grease!
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Old Jock on August 07, 2018, 08:17:04 AM
If Guzzi had a chain drive option I'd have it (apart from these driving the gearbox through 90 degree contraptions some have made)

For me a chain is far better, mechanically simpler & easier to maintain albeit more frequently and as Lannis states more efficient.

UJs drive me nuts and can be very bad for your health if not maintained, bevel boxes are added complications and inefficient.

Additional unsprung weight to slow down the handling

I just don't really understand the logic, maybe 40 years ago possibly but now.

I've got an X ring on the Ducati 1098, hardly ever adjust it, clean it with paraffin & a rag (Kerosene in president's English?) then lightly lube the outside to stop all the external plates and pins rusting, takes maybe 15-20 minutes absolute tops

No mess, no muck flung everywhere as others allude to, in fact after I grease the UJs, the Guzzi is the better candidate to lowside me due to greased rear boot.

It's the fact I like Guzzis that means I have them DESPITE rather than because of the shaft drive.

As far as slack goes, it can vary quite a bit on manufacturer to manufacturer. When I take the Ducati for its annual roadworthiness, the inspector always tells me the chain requires tensioning, despite me having just checked that it's at the slack Ducati recommend.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Perazzimx14 on August 07, 2018, 08:50:19 AM
Another plus of chains is the ability to easily change gear ratios to suite your riding style.

Using a continuous oiler many folk report getting 30 or 40K out of a chain. From my experience and at 15K on my bike if would have kept it I have no doubt the 30K would have been easily attainable. 
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Rough Edge racing on August 07, 2018, 10:07:47 AM
 For you chain heads... This is the primary drive on the dual 650 Triumph engine land speed racer I built... All the chains are  #428 dual stand like used on Harley big twin primarys.The jackshaft between the engines is supported on a modified Subaru wheel hub. The clutch and 5 speed are 90's Harley Evo.The bike has been track tested several times at 145 MPH with no driveline problems. Next runs will hopefully be closer to 160 mph  .At over 7000 rpm the chains are beyond their design limit and not running in an oil bath results in short chain life...Building an oil tight primary is not practical, spray on chain lube is minimal at best and the track officials frown on leaking oil on the racing surface. There is a few motorcycle engine powered four wheel streamliners with chain drive..They are using a drip water feed to cool the chain and extend life.....Water cooled chain is next


               (https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3939/33794778956_db815f29bf_c.jpg)
 
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: centauro on August 07, 2018, 10:17:23 AM
I know this is a "taboo" opinion for most chain drive type guys; that said, chains are really meant to operate inside a fully enclosed case, at least in most industrial applications.
The chain case enclosure keeps the chain clean, and lubricant stays inside, eliminating any flinging to rims, tires, and clothes.

Most Soviet era bikes had fully enclosed chains, my 1974 CZ 175 had  one, and I never needed to lube the chain; tension check was done by removing a round 1" cover and poking a finger in to feel for slack.
Some enterprenour British guy with common sense started to offer them custom made for any bike back in the mid '70s, and his efforts were met with shrugs and laughs.....
Why so many objections to an enclosed chain, aside from purely subjective appearance considerations?
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on August 07, 2018, 10:20:50 AM

Easy to add a tooth or subtract a tooth for a gearing change if desired. Try that with a HD belt or gear drive.


I can swap between an 8/37 rear drive and an 8/35 rear drive in about 30 minutes...

I know this is a "taboo" opinion for most chain drive type guys; that said, chains are really meant to operate inside a fully enclosed case, at least in most industrial applications.
The chain case enclosure keeps the chain clean, and lubricant stays inside, eliminating any flinging to rims, tires, and clothes.

Most Soviet era bikes had fully enclosed chains, my 1974 CZ 175 had  one, and I never needed to lube the chain; tension check was done by removing a round 1" cover and poking a finger in to feel for slack.
Some enterprenour British guy with common sense started to offer them custom made for any bike back in the mid '70s, and his efforts were met with shrugs and laughs.....
Why so many objections to an enclosed chain, aside from purely subjective appearance considerations?


My MZ Saxon Country and Silver Star Classic both had enclosed chains. A few more mainstream bikes with that feature: Harley big-twin back in the early '80s and the Yamaha XV920RH/RJ.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Lannis on August 07, 2018, 10:21:32 AM
I know this is a "taboo" opinion for most chain drive type guys; that said, chains are really meant to operate inside a fully enclosed case, at least in most industrial applications.
The chain case enclosure keeps the chain clean, and lubricant stays inside, eliminating any flinging to rims, tires, and clothes.

Most Soviet era bikes had fully enclosed chains, my 1974 CZ 175 had  one, and I never needed to lube the chain; tension check was done by removing a round 1" cover and poking a finger in to feel for slack.
Some enterprenour British guy with common sense started to offer them custom made for any bike back in the mid '70s, and his efforts were met with shrugs and laughs.....
Why so many objections to an enclosed chain, aside from purely subjective appearance considerations?

I've had BSA A10s with both enclosed and non-enclosed chains, and my beef with the enclosed was all the extra work you had to do to to bolt that three-piece thing in and out any time you needed to work in that area.   Maybe other designs (like the MZ ones with the rubber boots) work better as a practical thing.

Lannis
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on August 07, 2018, 10:32:34 AM
I've had BSA A10s with both enclosed and non-enclosed chains, and my beef with the enclosed was all the extra work you had to do to to bolt that three-piece thing in and out any time you needed to work in that area.   Maybe other designs (like the MZ ones with the rubber boots) work better as a practical thing.

Lannis

On the MZ, the sprocket was on a carrier that stayed attached to the swingarm, the wheel simply slipped off the cush drive rubbers, very much like a small block Guzzi.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: brider on August 07, 2018, 10:58:34 AM
Why so many objections to an enclosed chain, aside from purely subjective appearance considerations?

I'll bet they did it years ago because chains were not of the O-ring variety, lubes were not yet as advanced for "fling-off" stickiness, so a chain that was properly lubed with lube-o' the day (my dad would often say to just use some good used motor oil, and I'll bet this was done a LOT with enclosed chains) would REALLY sling the oil off.

Nowadays, with O-ring and X-ring chains and better, stickier lube, chain enclosures are just an added expense and cost that isn't necessary.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Lannis on August 07, 2018, 11:02:44 AM
I know this is a "taboo" opinion for most chain drive type guys; that said, chains are really meant to operate inside a fully enclosed case, at least in most industrial applications.


That's how "primary chains" work.   I have a bunch of old Brits with enclosed primary chains, and they are the least troublesome and most effective systems on the bike.    Always clean, always oily, they last a LONG time, and need very little maintenance.

I know a lot of people replace them with belt drives for "performance" purposes, but I've never chatted with anyone who had a better experience with belts than I've had with chains.   You run into problems with alternators overheating, etc when you take the oil out, and although I've heard of belts breaking, I've never heard of a triplex primary chain snapping in two .... (no LSR racers need apply!)

Lannis
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on August 07, 2018, 11:36:22 AM
FWIW, the MZ chains were lubed with moly grease. A non-o-ring/x-ring chain has less drag, especially important on low hp motorcycles.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: antmanbee on August 07, 2018, 11:53:25 AM
No one has mentioned belt drives.
I have a Suzuki S40 650 thumper with a belt and it is trouble free and mess free.
The only down side compared to chains is the lack of readily available sprockets to change ratios.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Perazzimx14 on August 07, 2018, 12:14:06 PM
I can swap between an 8/37 rear drive and an 8/35 rear drive in about 30 minutes...



On my DR650 I have at least 40 different ratios I can choose from with different sprockets that readily available.

Road riding/touring I run 15/42

Fire roads I run 14/42

Sidecar or tight woods riding I run 14/48


Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: kirb on August 07, 2018, 12:33:35 PM
The KTM990 group I used to frequent had some guys never lubing the chain and replacing the countershaft sprocket and chain every 20k miles. I would believe it with modern o/x ring chains.

The KTM990 adv required quite a bit of slack due to suspension geometry. I would hear now and again to check my chain, but it would be normal once loaded.

I don't see much benefit to lubing other than to keep rust at bay. Modern chains are so much easier to live with and 20k replacement cycles is not that big of a deal.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: TimmyTheHog on August 07, 2018, 01:39:32 PM
you are not the only one with that pet peeve.

Guzzi was my first shaft bike, and previously the two bikes I owned are all chains...both bikes has less than 50K miles...but they were well maintained/oiled that the chains/sprockets were all stock with minimum wears...the buyers were a "tad shocked"... :rolleyes: :boozing: :cool:

Now, on the other end of spectrum...my friend's triple which has less than 20K on it already went thru one chain/sprocket chain because he doesn't lube & adjust it!!!...freaking thing was clacking so bad that it also had light between the gears & chain...I would say he is lucky it didn't snap with the wheelies he pulls... :violent1:

well, chain should not sound like the guzzi valve clash :P
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Rough Edge racing on August 07, 2018, 02:03:51 PM
  Roller chains can take amazing abuse.....This is an interesting video of a long swingarm drag race bikechain in action , about 300 hp...These bikes have a compressed air shifter...

       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ZsWwQ072E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ZsWwQ072E)
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Perazzimx14 on August 07, 2018, 02:14:48 PM
  Roller chains can take amazing abuse.....This is an interesting video of a long swingarm drag race bikechain in action , about 300 hp...These bikes have a compressed air shifter...

       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ZsWwQ072E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ZsWwQ072E)

The Top Fuel bikes are easily pushing 3 times that HP but the roller chain on them isn't no 520. They are about 1-3/4" wide with 1/2" pins. The side plate looked like 1/4" steel.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Stevex on August 11, 2018, 01:03:01 PM
I've got 3 bikes with chain drive, all O/X ring.
They get a Kerosene wash once a year to remove all crud.
Bi weekly clean with a dry rag, then lube with EP90.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Nic in Western NYS on August 12, 2018, 07:47:07 AM
Loved all my shaft drives, never had a problem with any of them.  No crawling around to do a chain lube in the rain after a long days ride in a hotel parking lot.  Much cooler technology too.

I remember being surprised when I first learned how inefficient the shaft drives were at transfer of energy.  Didn't make intuitive sense to me (not a physicist or engineer).  But now I see how simple the chain design is.  Proper inspection SHOULD reduce the risk of a catastrophic failure on a chain, some of the workings of the shaft drive are hidden from everyday view.

As a closeted WD40 cleaner, no regular luber guy, I read these threads waiting for evidence that the way I'm doing it wrong will cause a lessening of the 25k miles useful life of the chain/sprockets - haven't found that yet.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Bulldog9 on August 12, 2018, 08:11:55 AM
I wouldn't know what that is..... I've only owned shaft driven bikes. Yamaha xs1100, 750, FJR, Kawasaki Concours, BMW RT, and now Guzzi.... :bike-037:
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: luthier on August 12, 2018, 08:35:09 AM
I sympathize with the OP. Nothing worse than seeing a  terribly maintained piece of machinery.  It's called vehicle abuse and should be an indictable offence. Dry chains should be considered nearly as serious as bald tyres. Wires hanging out from wherever should be reason enough to ground the machine. And dirty machines should be impounded and cleaned at the owners expense.
When I drove Taxis in a lifetime almost forgotten  you would be grounded for driving a dirty cab. The reasons are manifold and well founded as dirt indicates a maintenance free zone and thus a hazard to the public at large.
Where Guzzis get by is the secrecy that their drive train provides so in that case, if anything does go wrong the charge should be ten times greater because slack maintenance was concealed until it caused grievous risk to all concerned.
So make it next weekend boys, go out there with a can of grease and pull that driveline down because you know you should. It's a six pack job but afterwards you'll get that warm glow of satisfaction that it's done for another year. Now, back to that Tax return.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Perazzimx14 on August 12, 2018, 08:37:39 AM
Loved all my shaft drives, never had a problem with any of them.  No crawling around to do a chain lube in the rain after a long days ride in a hotel parking lot.  Much cooler technology too.



With an continuous oiler system this is all eliminated. At the end of the days ride simply glance at the oil reseveiour and top up if needed the oiling already been done.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: brider on August 13, 2018, 07:40:17 AM
As a closeted WD40 cleaner, no regular luber guy, I read these threads waiting for evidence that the way I'm doing it wrong will cause a lessening of the 25k miles useful life of the chain/sprockets - haven't found that yet.

I am not endorsing the Scott oiler (but not a detractor, either; I'd probably use one if I had a chain-drive bike), but they have a writeup on chains that is very good, and describes the need for lubing an O-ring chain:

https://www.scottoiler.com/motorcyclechainoilers/xmas/ScottoilerKnowledgeWorkshopv1.pdf

And this is not a rebuttal to Nic and his use of WD-40, because I've run into a LOT of people who rely on WD-40 for their bicycle AND motorcycle chains, but the fact is irrefutable that WD-40 does NOT leave a lubricating film of sufficient mechanical strength on a chain, and in the case of O-ring chains, that means lube where the O-rings need it. WD-40 rinses dirt and water away (which WOULD serve to help the O-rings), but leaves no lubricating film. A chain would arguably last longer if a dedicated lube were used.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Moto on August 13, 2018, 10:54:55 AM
Has anyone had any experience with the Tutoro chain oiler? Its operation is automatic, but mechanical instead of electrical or vacuum-driven. I'm considering buying one.

https://www.tutorochainoiler.com/ (https://www.tutorochainoiler.com/)

https://adventure-motorcycling.com/2014/08/18/tested-tutoro-chain-oiler-reviewed-on-bmw-650/ (https://adventure-motorcycling.com/2014/08/18/tested-tutoro-chain-oiler-reviewed-on-bmw-650/)

This thread has more or less persuaded me to give up manual oiling.

Moto
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Lannis on August 13, 2018, 11:57:41 AM
...... but the fact is irrefutable that WD-40 does NOT leave a lubricating film of sufficient mechanical strength on a chain .....

I'm not sure that there's no refuting that statement ... but I'd go along with "WD40 is not sold as a chain lubricant, and being only about 5% lubricant by weight, is not ideal as the sole lubricant for a chain".

WD-40 rinses dirt and water away (which WOULD serve to help the O-rings), but leaves no lubricating film.

I disagree with that.   Again, it may not be optimal for a chain, but WD40 is NOT 100% solvent, and does in fact leave a lubricating film behind (which I've used for many many purposes over the years) when the solvent evaporates .....

Lannis
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: TimmyTheHog on August 13, 2018, 12:47:30 PM
I'm not sure that there's no refuting that statement ... but I'd go along with "WD40 is not sold as a chain lubricant, and being only about 5% lubricant by weight, is not ideal as the sole lubricant for a chain".

I disagree with that.   Again, it may not be optimal for a chain, but WD40 is NOT 100% solvent, and does in fact leave a lubricating film behind (which I've used for many many purposes over the years) when the solvent evaporates .....

Lannis

WD40 is not a solvent nor a lubricant. It is a water displacement liquid that covers up the area with a coat of fluid and prevents rust from forming. It will serve as a lubricant for a short time.

But having a proper mixed chain lube/wax will ensure you have a better penetration and coating which LUBRICANT and PROTECT.

Again, use what satisfies you, but I will stick to what I know works.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: pyoungbl on August 13, 2018, 12:51:36 PM
Has anyone had any experience with the Tutoro chain oiler? Its operation is automatic, but mechanical instead of electrical or vacuum-driven. I'm considering buying one.

Moto
I installed the Tutoro oiler on my RX3.  The oiler is pretty simple, relies on vibration to open a valve and let oil drip.  Be advised that they use a really thick oil...think chain saw oil.  I think that's a bad idea because that thick stuff will trap grit.  Nevertheless, I bought the unit because it's inexpensive (hey, I'm a Guzzi guy!) and I'm running a good quality O-ring chain. 

In the past I ran a ProOiler on my Ducati and Triumph.  IMHO it's a much better system but also twice the cost.  I used ATF and could easily go 20K miles before I saw much wear on the sprockets.

www.pro-oiler.net

As an aside, I think that rust prevention is the most important reason to lube a modern O-ring chain.  OP mentioned surface rust on the adjustment plates.  This tells me that the chain itself is probably suffering from rust, which will be fine enough to migrate past those O-rings.  Then the chain starts to go to hell without the owner knowing it.

Peter Y.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: not-fishing on August 13, 2018, 01:48:56 PM
Absolutely, when a shaft drive works and lasts like you'd hope, they can be cheaper and less trouble than a chain.

But if you scan back JUST this WG list over the years and review the litany of issues that have happened to people (which I listed in my post as "changing rear drive oil, transmission seals, U-joint issues, carrier-bearing issues, spline-greasing issues, rear-drive seal issues", none of which happen to a chain), the average of the comparison comes way way down ....

Lannis

Curmudgeon's Response -----------

Yeah well on the last Honda I had the rear sprocket EXplod on a freeway onramp after about 5,000 miles (new chain & new rear sprocket 5,000 miles earlier).  I've only put about 30,000 miles on chain drive motorcycles and I won't go back from shafty. 

servicing the shaft, oil, grease, seals and gasket is not a problem to me

Mark
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Moto on August 13, 2018, 02:23:40 PM
I installed the Tutoro oiler on my RX3.  The oiler is pretty simple, relies on vibration to open a valve and let oil drip.  Be advised that they use a really thick oil...think chain saw oil.  I think that's a bad idea because that thick stuff will trap grit.  Nevertheless, I bought the unit because it's inexpensive (hey, I'm a Guzzi guy!) and I'm running a good quality O-ring chain. 

In the past I ran a ProOiler on my Ducati and Triumph.  IMHO it's a much better system but also twice the cost.  I used ATF and could easily go 20K miles before I saw much wear on the sprockets.

www.pro-oiler.net
...
Peter Y.

Thanks! The ProOiler seems like a better functional design than any other I've seen (assuming it is reliable).  I don't think I'll have enough room on my bike to mount all its components, though.

I may go with the Tutoro to save space and avoid that electronic controller on my triple tree, and in the expectation of using hydraulic mineral oil rather than their proprietary one.

Moto
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Perazzimx14 on August 13, 2018, 02:45:46 PM
There are a couple of choices that use electronic pumps like the Scottoiler E-Oiler but I've never used them nor would I choose them.

Until gravity ceases to exist or the intake on a running motor is no longer in vacuum I'll stick with the traditional vacuum operated system.

Having the ability to adjust the flow rate on the fly while novel is really unnecessary. Set the drip rate to 1 drip every 45 to 60 seconds and you're done.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: pyoungbl on August 13, 2018, 03:57:33 PM
in the expectation of using hydraulic mineral oil rather than their proprietary one.

Moto

I think you will find that thinner oil will give you excessive flow.  Try it, nothing to lose.  The vibration valving is not like a petcock.  There is some flow adjustment but they designed this with really thick oil in mind.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Roebling3 on August 13, 2018, 04:28:20 PM
The very best thing about chain drive, other than lightness and variable ratios' is when they fail it's an easy fix. If you're nearly in the middle of no where you can get replacement parts at most any motorcycle shop. If you don't mind using a clip to get home and have the correct tools. Shaft drive problems can be truly awful and damned expensive, in the 'field'. Heck, having to overnight for 3 days waiting for air freight can be fun, but always expensive.  R3~
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Moto on August 13, 2018, 05:37:32 PM
I think you will find that thinner oil will give you excessive flow.  Try it, nothing to lose.  The vibration valving is not like a petcock.  There is some flow adjustment but they designed this with really thick oil in mind.

Understood. Tutoro gives some weight recommendations for hydraulic mineral oil on one of their pages. It turns out there is a wide range of weights available. I'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: brider on August 13, 2018, 08:45:47 PM
... and does in fact leave a lubricating film behind (which I've used for many many purposes over the years) when the solvent evaporates .....
Lannis

Yeah, I use it as a lubricant, too, but note that my statement said "... does not leave a lubricating film of sufficient mechanical strength on a chain..."

Should be re-phrased as "...of sufficient mechanical strength for use on a motorcycle or bicycle chain." (Gonna catch hell now from the bicycle crowd. I won't engage.)
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Nic in Western NYS on August 14, 2018, 05:06:30 AM
Yeah, I use it as a lubricant, too, but note that my statement said "... does not leave a lubricating film of sufficient mechanical strength on a chain..."

Should be re-phrased as "...of sufficient mechanical strength for use on a motorcycle or bicycle chain." (Gonna catch hell now from the bicycle crowd. I won't engage.)
This is getting to the crux of it - to my understanding, all that is required for an x chain is to keep the outer surface reasonably clean and water repellent so that the already existing lubricant inside the chain remains intact and functional. It's not a matter of mechanical strength but of having that repellent film remain in place. So the question would be more like, how quickly does that film evaporate or wear off.  To my mind, the test for that would be whether there is any rust.  If there's never any rust, the film is there.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it (for now).  Cheers!
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Rough Edge racing on August 14, 2018, 06:17:38 AM
 
Quote
Yeah well on the last Honda I had the rear sprocket EXplod on a freeway onramp after about 5,000 miles (new chain & new rear sprocket 5,000 miles earlier).  I've only put about 30,000 miles on chain drive motorcycles and I won't go back from shafty.

  Wow, I never heard a story like that.....

  WD-40 for chain lube? 
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: brider on August 14, 2018, 06:50:39 AM
This is getting to the crux of it - to my understanding, all that is required for an x chain is to keep the outer surface reasonably clean and water repellent so that the already existing lubricant inside the chain remains intact and functional.

This is true, but there's more to it than that, and I encourage you to click on the link to the Scottoiler website I posted a few posts back and read. The O-rings are in constant shearing contact with the side plates, at high frequency, beyond the physical lubricating properties of WD-40.

However, I will concede that we all do "what works for us", me included, and I get irritated when my wife tells me to load the dishwasher "her" way because "my" way is wrong.

I just like to understand and discuss mechanical things down to the contact surfaces. Friction/tire pressure/contact patch size is another topic that can NEVER come to a consensus.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Ncdan on August 14, 2018, 07:26:51 AM
If the chain drive system is superior why does all vehicles not have that system, just bigger to handle the weight,  Simple answer, it's not but each to his own, that's what makes the world go round. Ride safe my friends:)
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Lannis on August 14, 2018, 08:39:49 AM
If the chain drive system is superior why does all vehicles not have that system, just bigger to handle the weight,  Simple answer .....

Yes, thank goodness, there is a simple answer, and that is that the usual transverse crankshaft motorcycle already has the crankshaft lined up for a chain drive and thus no need for power-wasting bevel gears, that there is only one rear wheel to drive and thus no need for a differential, and that lightness and simplicity is much more important in a motorcycle than it is in a car, which is already porky due to the creature-comfort items aboard.

There really are good reasons for them (ask a race-bike or dirt-bike designer); it's not just "personal preference", although (as we see) some folks manage to turn chain-vs-shaft into a sort of cult schism ....  :shocked:

Lannis
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Moto on August 14, 2018, 11:00:47 AM
Yes, every situation needs its own solution.

My recently acquired 18 hp motorcycle came with a 530 size chain (!), non o-ring.

After reading a bit on the effects of o-rings on low horsepower motors, I think I'll stick with the original equipment, plus a chain oiler. Tutoro, by the way, was responsive to a question, and even sent photos of caliper measurements for an idea I proposed. So I'll probably go with them.

There seems to be one company out there for each patentable idea about turning an oiler on and off automatically: electrical, vacuum, inertia (Tutoro), even wind pressure (OSCO?). If you'd like your own oiler company, here is my idea: make it start oiling when the rider sits on the seat. Must be patentable, judging from the others.

The ProOiler mentioned earlier, though, is in a completely different category: It meters oil with distance traveled instead of time running, which is better in theory. If they would only have spent some time on making their product more compact and aesthetically acceptable I would have bought it. But at my age I recognize that the only beautiful things I can have must be purchased! So the Tutoro wins.

Moto
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: not-fishing on August 14, 2018, 12:09:08 PM
 
  Wow, I never heard a story like that.....

  WD-40 for chain lube?

Nope, the right lube,

Jacwal denselube chainring ---- It was the super-duper-newfangled Nylon (I think) chainring--- made by the same people who gave you this fairing:

(http://thekneeslider.com/images/jacwal2.jpg)

I guess the little Honda 400F had to much torque for it.  (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4078445.pdf)
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Rough Edge racing on August 14, 2018, 12:17:27 PM
 Into the 1940's chain final drive was still state of the art for heavy duty slower moving trucks..

           (https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/uploads/gallery/album_1449/gallery_7036_1449_219591.jpg)


         
Quote
Nope, the right lube,

Jacwal densilube chainring ---- It was the super-duper-newfangled Nylon (I think) chainring--- made by the same people who gave you this fairing:



I guess the little Honda 400F had to much torque for it.

 Interesting, the Japanese must have failed to notice the late 60's  early 70's nylon faced sprocket cam drive failures on US V8 engines.. The cam drives were HyVo chains but it was still a fail...
 I like chain drive,it's so simple and primitive...
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Ncdan on August 14, 2018, 03:18:24 PM
Yes, thank goodness, there is a simple answer, and that is that the usual transverse crankshaft motorcycle already has the crankshaft lined up for a chain drive and thus no need for power-wasting bevel gears, that there is only one rear wheel to drive and thus no need for a differential, and that lightness and simplicity is much more important in a motorcycle than it is in a car, which is already porky due to the creature-comfort items aboard.

There really are good reasons for them (ask a race-bike or dirt-bike designer); it's not just "personal preference", although (as we see) some folks manage to turn chain-vs-shaft into a sort of cult schism ....  :shocked:

Lannis
A race bike or dirt bike is not even in the same conversation as pleasure, Touring or sport touring bike. In that application if someone wants a greasy noisy chain that must be adjusted and replaced by all means go for it, Personally I simply can't see anyone wanting a chain in that application. As I said it's a personal preference. I'll stick to my shaft driven 1400.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Lannis on August 14, 2018, 07:37:51 PM
A race bike or dirt bike is not even in the same conversation as pleasure, Touring or sport touring bike. In that application if someone wants a greasy noisy chain that must be adjusted and replaced by all means go for it, Personally I simply can't see anyone wanting a chain in that application. As I said it's a personal preference. I'll stick to my shaft driven 1400.

You asked why, if chains are so great, don't ALL vehicles have that system.   I was explaining why some do and some don't, instead of all of them using the same system.

And they ARE in the same conversation (we're having it right now!).   If lightness and simplicity and ease of maintenance are good things for racing and off-road, then they are, to a certain degree, good for road bikes - they're not completely "out of the picture" obviously because some of the nicest and most expensive sport-touring and touring bikes have chains ...

Lannis
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Ncdan on August 14, 2018, 08:35:07 PM
You asked why, if chains are so great, don't ALL vehicles have that system.   I was explaining why some do and some don't, instead of all of them using the same system.

And they ARE in the same conversation (we're having it right now!).   If lightness and simplicity and ease of maintenance are good things for racing and off-road, then they are, to a certain degree, good for road bikes - they're not completely "out of the picture" obviously because some of the nicest and most expensive sport-touring and touring bikes have chains ...

Lannis
Not trying to continue a friendly and respectful disagreement but there is no such thing as a Touring motorcycle that anyone serious about a a touring bike would pay good money for, that is chain driven. Harley, or any of the metric tourers, BMW or Guzzi has a TOURING BIKE with a chain so I'll have to call BS on that claim, my friend:)
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Nic in Western NYS on August 14, 2018, 08:42:56 PM
This is true, but there's more to it than that, and I encourage you to click on the link to the Scottoiler website I posted a few posts back and read. The O-rings are in constant shearing contact with the side plates, at high frequency, beyond the physical lubricating properties of WD-40.

However, I will concede that we all do "what works for us", me included, and I get irritated when my wife tells me to load the dishwasher "her" way because "my" way is wrong.

I just like to understand and discuss mechanical things down to the contact surfaces. Friction/tire pressure/contact patch size is another topic that can NEVER come to a consensus.
Not irritated in the least - thanks for the info, I will read, digest as best I can, and hopefully come up with a reasonable plan of action.  I MAY (no guarantees) even consider changing my behavior.  I MAY.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: davevv on August 14, 2018, 09:53:10 PM
Chain on this one also.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Marques/Motus/Motus/i-JHJrZqW/0/f7f8607d/XL/DSCN0008-XL.jpg)
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: kirkemon on August 14, 2018, 10:01:45 PM
No chain on a motorcycle period, for me.
Why? Modern chains and lubes are much different than they were years ago.
How do you change your gearing?
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Ncdan on August 14, 2018, 10:09:10 PM
the Yamaha FJR and Honda VFR come to mind as great chain driven touring bikes.
Whatever, if you consider those fine Touring bikes there is nowhere to go from here for for me. I'm afraid some here needs to grease their chains, lol, I'm going to bed on this one:)
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: fotoguzzi on August 15, 2018, 10:49:35 AM
Whatever, if you consider those fine Touring bikes there is nowhere to go from here for for me. I'm afraid some here needs to grease their chains, lol, I'm going to bed on this one:)
my bad.. brain fart I guess, those two (FJR, VFR) are shaft drive..
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Ncdan on August 15, 2018, 11:21:15 AM
my bad.. brain fart I guess, those two (FJR, VFR) are shaft drive..
Lol, no problem Foto, I wasn't going to mention that:) all kidding aside about the sport touring type of bikes, I have also had a desire to try one of them, but I have found in my walk in life that hybrid machines are really not real good at either. I have a fish and ski boat that's not really good at either, especially the fishing part:(
A ridding buddy recently tried the Yamaha sport tourer, I can't say which model but it was 1300cc. He went on a couple trips with us and sold it. He said he just couldn't adjust from his years on his Harley electric glide. That said if I could find a 1100 Honda sport tourer I'd love to try one. Oh wait, it has a shaft, lol, just kidding:)
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: brider on August 15, 2018, 02:05:38 PM
Chain on this one also.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Marques/Motus/Motus/i-JHJrZqW/0/f7f8607d/XL/DSCN0008-XL.jpg)

Interesting.....I wonder how and WHY they turned the longitudinal crank output thru 90-deg to create the sprocket output?

And BTW, my intent with this post was NOT to create a shaft/vs chain debate, but it HAS been interesting! I have no fear of chain drive on a road bike, I just don't like to see them all shiny or rusty. I've seen chromed chains that to me look AWFUL, because a chain should leave dirt on your hands if you touch it. Just the waaaaaay it should be.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Rough Edge racing on August 15, 2018, 02:25:59 PM
 Many years ago a greasy chain may have saved my lifestyle... I was  dating a girl for 1-1/2 years...She wanted a get a commitment from me, you know, marriage and kids  in the near future....I had greasy hands from messing with the chain..She cornered me  " Is it always going to be greasy bikes or will you clean up ?"  I didn't want to lose her but I hesitated and lost her....
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Ncdan on August 15, 2018, 03:18:25 PM
Many years ago a greasy chain may have saved my lifestyle... I was  dating a girl for 1-1/2 years...She wanted a get a commitment from me, you know, marriage and kids  in the near future....I had greasy hands from messing with the chain..She cornered me  " Is it always going to be greasy bikes or will you clean up ?"  I didn't want to lose her but I hesitated and lost her....
Maybe I should have looked at things differently now that I can clearly now see a definite benefit of a greasy old chain. I formally withdraw my expression of negativity against a chain driven bike.
Still don't want one on my tourer 😎
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Lannis on August 15, 2018, 04:18:29 PM
Many years ago a greasy chain may have saved my lifestyle... I was  dating a girl for 1-1/2 years...She wanted a get a commitment from me, you know, marriage and kids  in the near future....I had greasy hands from messing with the chain..She cornered me  " Is it always going to be greasy bikes or will you clean up ?"  I didn't want to lose her but I hesitated and lost her....

That was a close call then!   The answer was "There's always going to be greasy bikes around ...  You in or not?"

I picked up my girl for our first date on a greasy motorcycle (well, a 2 stroke with oily pipes and a greasy chain), she's been dealing with greasy hands and greasy clothes since, and that was 46 years ago ..... !   

Lannis
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Rough Edge racing on August 15, 2018, 04:27:53 PM
  Well, I didn't learn from the experience ...I would up married to a woman that also didn't really  greasy chains. but it didn't last...However, the last 30 years have spent with a woman who approves of greasy chains ....So the chain drive guided me to a better place... :bow:
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: BlizzGuzz on August 18, 2018, 11:18:05 AM
Has anyone had any experience with the Tutoro chain oiler? Its operation is automatic, but mechanical instead of electrical or vacuum-driven. I'm considering buying one.

Moto

Tutoro auto. chainolier on my second KTM 1290 SA. Has never failed, works like a charm  :thumb::

Setup on my previous 1290 SA (MY 2015):


(https://thumb.ibb.co/jqhbJK/Tutoro_Chainoiler_oil_feed_hose.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jqhbJK)



(https://thumb.ibb.co/frCtyK/Tutoro_Chainoiler_single_feed_nozzle_rear_sprocket2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/frCtyK)


Setup on my current 1290 SA_S (MY 2018):


(https://thumb.ibb.co/d3styK/Tutoro_KTM_SA_S_5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d3styK)



(https://thumb.ibb.co/iyw3yK/Tutoro_KTM_SA_S_3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iyw3yK)



(https://thumb.ibb.co/npe6JK/Tutoro_KTM_SA_S_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/npe6JK)



(https://thumb.ibb.co/mc7RJK/Tutoro_KTM_SA_S_6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mc7RJK)



(https://thumb.ibb.co/fKpvCe/Hidden_nozzle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fKpvCe)


I let the photos speak for themselves.
My experience so far after approx. 2000 km is that the front sprocket nozzle mount is by far the best with less oil fling than the rear nozzle mount.

Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: jcctx on August 18, 2018, 11:45:37 AM
Anyone else amazed by the longevity of this thread on a board dedicated to shaft drive motorcycles??????????
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: BlizzGuzz on August 18, 2018, 11:51:03 AM
Anyone else amazed by the longevity of this thread on a board dedicated to shaft drive motorcycles??????????
As a previous MG Stelvio owner I'm pretty surprised myself...  :wink:.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Moto on August 18, 2018, 11:56:18 AM
...
I let the photos speak for themselves.
My experience so far after approx. 2000 km is that the front sprocket nozzle mount is by far the best with less oil fling than the rear nozzle mount.

Thanks! GREAT series of photos. I'll think more about my installation because of them.

Moto
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Vagrant on August 18, 2018, 03:02:08 PM
Is that ATF in there or 10-60 Motrul? Or better yet strawberry syrup.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: BlizzGuzz on August 18, 2018, 03:42:29 PM
Is that ATF in there or 10-60 Motrul? Or better yet strawberry syrup.
A question for me, right?
Well... he-he-he... not strawberry syrup, no...  :wink:.
It's actually Tutoro oil for hot conditions which we've had a lot of this summer here in Norway  :grin:.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Muzz on August 18, 2018, 04:15:38 PM
After doing over 200,000 miles on a bike that had 4 chains whizzing around I am now a committed shaft drive exponent.

I only used Renolds chains on the Matchy and had a pan filled with a mix of oil and grease which I would heat and throw the rear chain at least in, then allow to drain. I got something like 40,000 miles out of the chain.

The Honda GB 400 I had had a oil seal chain. I surfaced lubed with Castrol chain lube, but at about 28,000 kms I noticed that links were seizing. I heated the chain in a pan of WD40 to get the lube in, then destroyed the oil seals by prolonged heating with my lube mix. The chain was not actually worn and after the treatment the chain worked fine. It did however neat the bulk treatment after that as the O-rings were stuffed.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Muzz on August 18, 2018, 04:23:59 PM
As an aside, as a former keen mountain biker whose interest has been severely curtailed by body malfunctions, I am keenly aware of chain maintenance.

I do a bit of gardening for a friend, and at the time I do it a university lecturer cycles off to work. I couldn't help but hear and notice that the chain was a ball of rust. I threw my lubes +WD40 in the truck and next time he cycled off I stopped him, threw the bike upside down and first used the WD40 to penetrate the rust then gave it a liberal coat of bike chain wet lube. Got rid of the excess and sent him on his way.

Next time I saw him he was amazed at how smooth the bike felt and thought I was a mechanical genius! :grin: :grin: :grin: Sigh, I wish. :grin:
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: brider on August 20, 2018, 11:51:12 AM
Anyone else amazed by the longevity of this thread on a board dedicated to shaft drive motorcycles??????????

YES! I am amazed and proud that a subject of my annoyance could provoke such interest! Not as much mud-slinging about methods of lube as I expected, but I guess that's a good thing!

Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: brider on August 20, 2018, 11:54:04 AM
As an aside, as a former keen mountain biker whose interest has been severely curtailed by body malfunctions, I am keenly aware of chain maintenance.

 I couldn't help but hear and notice that the chain was a ball of rust.

Me too, again! I really became interested in lube when I started mtn biking, and my current preference is for a wax-based lube that congeals and flings off along with the dirt, but requires frequent re-application. This would be too frequent for motorcycle use, probably one of the reasons it hasn't been adopted (or maybe it has? I am not familiar with wax-based motorcycle lubes).

The noisy, rusty condition is the basis for my original post, although the motorcycle that prompted it was certainly not to this point.

Now time for this thread to come to a quiet end.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Lannis on August 20, 2018, 03:52:25 PM

I'm not surprised at all. Don't kid yourself, the issue of chain verses shaft/belt is as long lived as the motorcycle itself.

Throw rocks at either and you can be sure to get an earful.

I'm afraid you can't stop this nonsense as you really didn't start it.

:-)

I was just thinking ... these discussions last a long time and have adherents both ways because in our long riding lives, we've spent a LOT of time either greasing and replacing chains, or knocking out carrier bearings, or making sure we have a spare master link, or finding out there are NO more rear ends available for our favorite antique, while you can always get a chain and sprocket set even if the bike's 90 years old, or adjusting chains, or getting U-joint crosses rebuilt .... and so we tend to get firm ideas and opinions one way or the other.

Maybe it would be better if we were one of those guys who has ALL his service done by a shop.   I know a few - they ride a LOT, all over the country, but they've never touched a bolt or a drain screw in their lives - they just drop the bike off at a shop every few thousand miles and pick it up when it's done.

I guarantee you that guys who do that don't care about these discussions, and wouldn't waste 5 seconds posting about their "preference" - because why would they have one?    They might not even know if their bike has a chain, belt, or shaft .....

Lannis
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: TimmyTheHog on August 20, 2018, 04:55:05 PM

Here is my Africa Twin sitting in its crate, notice the chain.
It has a decal on top of the chain guard saying 40 mm of slack, when I picked it up it had around 15 mm.
The 'sales person gets a "tech" who with a straight face says it will stretch in the first 1000 kms. (I had somehow been sent back to 1976) as a bonus I was then informed "the filings will also come out with the oil (first service)  :laugh:


LOL so hard at the chain stretching...of course it will stretch...and you will need a new chain after that  :grin: :grin: :grin:

That is why PDI is so important AKA know the dealer who knows shit LOL...

Or do your own due diligent and double check...also a great way to know your bike...

Love thy bike, thy bike shall treat you well  :thumb:
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: brider on August 20, 2018, 08:18:53 PM
Mechanically clueless, no?

I know commercial pilots like that.

I know Aerospace engineers like that. I work with many of them. Working on a detail design, CAD-modeling, discussing design nuances around a conference table and you'd be sure these guys could replace a clutch with their eyes closed. But dig a little deeper around the "water cooler", and I've learned that quite a high percentage have no idea how the car they drove to work operates. My officemate still takes his bicycle to the shop every year for a "tune up", and he has no idea what it is they do to it. Another that I've mentioned in this forum had plastic Acerbis handguards installed on her DR 175 and paid the shop $700 to do it. Apparently didn't think to ask one of the engineers she works with if they could do it cheaper.

Kind of off on a tangent, but Lannis' comments and observations were spot-on.

Oh, and my initial posting sort of opened the question of lube, not chain vs driveshaft, but I guess they're all LINKED (get it??!!)  :boozing:
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Ncdan on August 20, 2018, 08:33:31 PM
I've enjoyed this post so much I just can't let it die, soooo let me say, most of us ole timers has progressed past the inferior chain days of old, to the modern day of the far superior driveshaft. The rest of you guys will catch up eventually. Sorry, the two glasses of warm red wine made me do this, LOL, I love this forum!!:)
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: brider on August 21, 2018, 07:02:56 AM
One curious design feature of this bike was it's exhaust location: It exited (2-into-1) behind the right footpeg, right under the rider's butt. That doesn't seem right, for some reason.

And thru it all, nobody bothered to comment on this observation.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Guzzistajohn on August 21, 2018, 07:39:46 AM
Maybe this thread and the "rear drive is pumping out the breather" thread????
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: mjptexas on August 21, 2018, 05:22:54 PM
Not trying to continue a friendly and respectful disagreement but there is no such thing as a Touring motorcycle that anyone serious about a a touring bike would pay good money for, that is chain driven. Harley, or any of the metric tourers, BMW or Guzzi has a TOURING BIKE with a chain so I'll have to call BS on that claim, my friend:)

I'm a bit surprised an owner of a KTM Adventure or a Ducati Multistrada hasn't called you out on this statement. 
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Lannis on August 21, 2018, 05:33:36 PM
Maybe this thread and the "rear drive is pumping out the breather" thread????

AND the "Final Drive Seal Failure" thread ... ?
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Lannis on August 22, 2018, 02:35:53 PM
  Well, I didn't learn from the experience ...I would up married to a woman that also didn't really  greasy chains. but it didn't last...However, the last 30 years have spent with a woman who approves of greasy chains ....So the chain drive guided me to a better place... :bow:

And you can STAY in that place too, with the right attitude ...  :grin:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/General/i-zV9XMXZ/0/94c36d46/O/me%20or%20the%20bike.jpg) (https://lannisselz.smugmug.com/General/i-zV9XMXZ/A)
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Guzzistajohn on August 22, 2018, 05:25:08 PM
Ordered chain and sprockets for the tiger today. $220.00 and maybe a two hr. Job for an all new drive train. I'm good with that <shrug>
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 22, 2018, 06:19:41 PM
And you can STAY in that place too, with the right attitude ...  :grin:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/General/i-zV9XMXZ/0/94c36d46/O/me%20or%20the%20bike.jpg) (https://lannisselz.smugmug.com/General/i-zV9XMXZ/A)

Back in the day, I was talking to Burt Rutan. He was just another of the homebuilder guys, then. He said, "She said it was either that airplane or me! That made the decision pretty easy."  :grin:
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: John A on August 23, 2018, 08:04:15 AM
I enjoyed the chain on my Ambassadors. They are of course on the twist grip under a cover, never gave me trouble and worked nicely. Makes the simple way of wrapping the cable around the drum seem cheesy.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: brider on August 23, 2018, 12:36:14 PM
I was talking to Burt Rutan. He was just another of the homebuilder guys, then. He said, "She said it was either that airplane or me! That made the decision pretty easy."  :grin:

Is this fer real? To think that the fortunes of Scaled Composites at one time hinged on that kind of ultimatum.....I hope he's glad he "wheelied away", I'm sure the rest of the aviation world is!
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 23, 2018, 07:06:58 PM
Is this fer real? To think that the fortunes of Scaled Composites at one time hinged on that kind of ultimatum.....I hope he's glad he "wheelied away", I'm sure the rest of the aviation world is!

Sure it's for real.. Burt was just "one of the guys"  then. I assume he still is.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: brider on August 23, 2018, 09:10:44 PM
Back to the original story:

I took a close-up of the offensive chain today, if you zoom in and look real close, you can see rust on the pin surface beneath the roller on one of the links:


(https://thumb.ibb.co/mozsLz/rusty_chain.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mozsLz)

poems by Anne Porter (https://poetandpoem.com/Anne-Porter/poems)


This is a critical interface that isn't protected by the O-rings. The rollers make contact with the sprocket teeth, and are not a close-tolerance fit on the pins they "roll" on. Needs to be lube in there, and this is where a majority of the rattly noise that makes me cringe comes from.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Idontwantapickle on August 24, 2018, 05:47:27 PM
Back to the original story:

I took a close-up of the offensive chain today, if you zoom in and look real close, you can see rust on the pin surface beneath the roller on one of the links:


(https://thumb.ibb.co/mozsLz/rusty_chain.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mozsLz)

poems by Anne Porter (https://poetandpoem.com/Anne-Porter/poems)




That's a pretty neglected chain. You should just lube it.
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: Muzz on August 24, 2018, 05:52:34 PM
That's a pretty neglected chain. You should just lube it.

 :grin: :grin: :grin: I thought it but didn't want to say it. I can honestly say that I have never let any chain on any of my bikes, either pushbike or otherwise, get to where they are showing rust.

Even as a young kid my old man impressed on us the importance of lube on a chain. :thumb:
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: TimmyTheHog on August 24, 2018, 05:53:54 PM
That's a pretty neglected chain. You should just lube it.

if that is my bike's chain, I might already have a heart attack... :shocked:

my OCD won't allow it...
Title: Re: Can't STAND dry, un-adjusted chains...(NGC)
Post by: brider on August 24, 2018, 09:32:25 PM
That's a pretty neglected chain. You should just lube it.

IT'S NOT MY CHAIN!  It's the chain on the bike that started this whole thread! This chain is my arguement for LUBING your o-ring chain!