ABS removal

[Huzo]

I have a 2007 Norge and am thinking of removing the ABS stuff.
Has anyone here done it and what are the pitfalls ?
I can disable it with the switch, but it re engages at the next startup. I do contend that the braking feels “smoother” without the ABS engaged.

[Perazzimx14]

Not on a Norge but I have bypassed the IABS III on several early BMW R1200GS's and in the end had excellent non-ABS brakes.

https://www.advrider.com/f/posts/44464171/

Does the Norge have a fuse for the ABS? If so disabling it could be as easy as pulling the fuse like the VStrom owners do. Or has a inline toggle to make it easily switchable on/off.

[Bulldog9]

The 1200 Sport is ABS Free.  I imagine you could remove all the sensors, tone rings and the ABS unit with fuses and lines from the bike and just run brake lines from the MCs to the calipers, but I have no idea how that may or may not mess with the ECU or Dash.

[fotoguzzi]

Yes, the Norge has a fuse (maybe 2) for the ABS. Try pulling those first. Maybe that’s all you have to do.
If I remember right they are in a separate fuse holder mounted to the battery cover with a rubber snubber.

[Huzo]

Thanks guys for taking an interest.
It is the possibility of throwing a digital wrench into the ECU, that I fear the most.
If I were to de activate the system with a fuse pull, I would also want the hardware gone as well.

[Huzo]

Will I have to put up with the incessant flashing of the warning light ?

[Alfetta]

I think it is possible to move one wheel sensor to the other wheel so both are watching the same wheel. this should get you no dash light, and no interference from ABS or traction control.  I considered this as IMHO the traction control can be dangerous in certain situations.

what ever you do, don't mention this or another Guzzi forum..  responses were very narrow minded and less than kind !

[jrt]

Thanks guys for taking an interest.
It is the possibility of throwing a digital wrench into the ECU, that I fear the most.
If I were to de activate the system with a fuse pull, I would also want the hardware gone as well.

Wouldn't pulling the fuse be a good first test before molesting any hardware? 

[Perazzimx14]

 

Wouldn't pulling the fuse be a good first test before molesting any hardware?

And it’s easily reversible

[Huzo]

Wouldn't pulling the fuse be a good first test before molesting any hardware?

That’s gotta be a good first move.

[Trialsman]

I never liked the ABS on the rear, but I can see an advantage for the front.  On several bikes, KTM 690,990,and Guzzi Stelvio, and maybe my Norge, I removed only the rear. From the rear master cylinder there is a line to the ABS pump.  The rear channel for the pump is the one I sealed off.  I machined caps to thread into the ABS pump in and out for the rear channel.  Remove the two existing brake lines for the rear channel.  Next you will need to source a brake line to go directly from the master cylinder to the rear caliper.  I left the wheel disc and the sensor in place and had no issues.  My idea was to be able to lock up the rear wheel in off road conditions and yet keep the safety of ABS on the front wheel.  I have not done it yet on the V85 but when I run out of projects, who knows.  I hope any of this helps as a plan or as an idea that sparks yet something truly innovative.  Good luck

[blackcat]

I’ve only used the abs on my Norge once and that was on the trip home from picking up the bike at MPH. Maybe I’ll turn it off and see if it feels any different while braking.

[Huzo]

Thanks for the insights Blackcat and Trialsman.
The definitive guide to the disconnection procedure will be an advantage…

[Roebling3]

I've literally aged out of motorcycling, but I'll not part w/2 Italian 2 strokes; both weighing less than 300#. I'll be back, I hope.

I've been riding MC's 74 years. Most of them were quick and big fun. The most important system on MCs are the brakes - especially the front.

I took delivery of a '17 V7 3 'racer'. The brake system could not be bled, with proven, dependable results - after 1 stop!! No leaks! Total failure
This went on for a month or so. Jim Hamlin, using the factory program, had the same results - again & again. I knew Jim and one of his techs had put together a solution. I said go ahead w/it. For the stock front Brembo an yclept '4pot' radial - Brembo caliper & radial master cylinder, w/remote res. were mounted. My life on the planet changed completely. I'll never own another bike w/cheap, inadequate  brakes.

The sensitivity of this system is extraordinary. The fear is gone. It's a confidence builder. You will love it!

It looks to be the same brake system change added to the single type - V7 racer series in Europe.
I'd gladly give up the abs, just to lose the weight & complexity.    R3~

[SemperVee]

  On the other hand with nearly 1 million miles of street riding and 12 years a MSF instructor I would never turn off the ABS nor seek to purchase a bike without it.  As good as I am with braking -  The system (working)  is quicker and better than I am.  I have had reasons to use it when Bambi jumped in front of me, etc..

[Bulldog9]

The only bike I own with ABS is the V7ii Stornello. The Norge (14) and MGX-21 (17) also had ABS, but I found the systems invisible, and never engaged unless I was testing to make sure they worked. Short of the idea of being able to mash the rear brake regret free, and perhaps a panic stop with potential loss of traction, I have not had a need for it.  I prefer bikes without, and one of the reasons I find it hard to part with the Griso and 1200 Sport not to mention my trio of 1970 era bikes.

[Huzo]

I find that the rear brake on my Norge gives a slight tapping when braking firmly, especially on downhill stops.
I accept that this is because the wheel is becoming “lighter” and traction is being compromised, so the rotation reduces.
Thus the intervention of the TC.
I just prefer the smoother feel of the brakes at or near maximum application. There’s another reason as well.
It’s my bike and I want it gone.

[SmithSwede]

To each his own.  We all choose our risk profile.  But since you raised the topic of ABS, I’ll throw in my 2 cents. 

Prior to about 1:30 pm on March 6, 2022, I was not really a fan of ABS.  I’d ridden 40 years without them.  I was “good.”  Plus, I had a bad experience on a 2007 BMW F800S with ABS, that would defeat the brakes too aggressively over bumps, and once refused to brake while I was descending a gravel driveway leaving the Lindale Guzzi rally. 

My world changed on March 6.  I locked up the front on a wet road, tossed my beloved V7 down the street, and broke all the bones in my right ankle.  Much pain, anguish, and lost work. 

I personally will never ride a bike without ABS.  The V7 is out of service.  I’m selling the Ducati 900SS and the BMW F650 because they lack ABS. 

ABS would have totally prevented my spill.  Which in the grand scheme of things was minor—just a broken ankle.  But I pondered all the tens of thousands of miles I ride, at high speed, urban traffic, unknown road traction, rain, slush, etc.  A lock-up under other conditions could have killed me.

I’m on a 2019 Kawasaki Z900 now precisely because I wanted modern ABS.  It is seamless.  Far better than my old BMW. 

I spoke with the engineer who wrote the most recent SAE paper on motorcycle ABS brakes.  He analyzed the tech.  Did a lot of testing.  The results are clear to me; these is minimal downside and huge upside.  Even professional racers, on known dry pavement, cannot “beat” the ABS system.   

Just my thoughts on ABS.  And I’m fully aware that had I read this post a year ago I would have discounted it.  I figured I was “too good” and “too experienced” to need ABS.   I no longer hold that delusion.   

[Huzo]

Ok SS.
A well put and typically on point presentation that is to be discounted at one’s own peril. I’ll admit that ABS can react quicker to commencement of lock up than I can, there is no disputing that point.
I do find however, that the ABS intervenes in a benevolent way more often than I want, if I experience the commencement of lock up without ABS, I tend to reduce braking in a more measured way than the system does. I further suggest that when the TC activates it can likely prevent a spill, but you are still required to “think of something else”, if you are to avoid the collision risk that you perceived in the first place.
It is saying to you that…
“You are braking too hard in an attempt to stop…..
I will reduce your braking application for you….”
Now if my braking was more than I actually needed to avoid the incident then the ABS has saved me, because my initial application was excessive and I will successfully stop in time.
But I find that a benign intervention by the ABS when moderate/safe braking is used but on rough surface, gives the tapping through the pedal and I find it disconcerting.
I have on occasions, reacted to that feeling and altered my intentions unnecessarily as a result.
I have a tendency to shy away from technologies that override my command decisions, for the better or worse.

[SIR REAL ED]

Well said Huzo & SmithSwede!  I can agree with both of you.

IMSMO, any adventure bike or dual purpose bike that has ABS, also needs to have an off switch.... on the rear wheel at least.

I don't plan to ever not own a bike due to presence of ABS, or lack of ABS, or for that matter ride a "road" or not ride a "road" because the bike I am on has or does not have ABS.

But I could change my mind someday. Hell, I might even change my gender if the incentives are sufficient....   

"Ladies drink free on Thursday night 9:00 to midnight?"
"Call me Sheila!" 
 
Hopefully this thread will get spiced up enough to keep Dan-O from going to sleep....   

[Huzo]

Out of respect for Dan, I’ll try to disobey my instincts…..

[egschade]

Huzo - how do you compare the Norge ABS to the V85TT's? Could it be that the Norge's older tech is to blame or would you also consider removing it from the V85?

Like Swede I've found that older ABS systems are more noticeable / intrusive than newer systems. The ABS on my older BMW's (K1200LT and F650GS) was intrusive and released way too much braking when it engaged, but the last two systems on my V7 III and V85TT feel much more 'natural'.

[Huzo]

Huzo - how do you compare the Norge ABS to the V85TT's? Could it be that the Norge's older tech is to blame or would you also consider removing it from the V85?

Like Swede I've found that older ABS systems are more noticeable / intrusive than newer systems. The ABS on my older BMW's (K1200LT and F650GS) was intrusive and released way too much braking when it engaged, but the last two systems on my V7 III and V85TT feel much more 'natural'.

Yeah, that’s a fair assessment mate.
I do readily confess that the V85 ABS is a lot softer in it’s action, I don’t hate the Norge system in any discernible way, but if it wasn’t there it would not be all bad.
When I bought my 1050 Triumph Sprint ST, I could have bought the one on the floor next to it for almost the same money and it had ABS, I chose the non equipped one with no regard for the price.
If I’d wanted to, I could have twisted his arm and walked out with the ABS one, but told him that if it was $200 cheaper with ABS,I still would have taken the non equipped one.
Same with the quick shifter on the V100, I would opt to not have it, even if it was free. I just don’t want potential gremlins if I can side step them.

[Bulldog9]

To each his own.  We all choose our risk profile.  But since you raised the topic of ABS, I’ll throw in my 2 cents. 

Prior to about 1:30 pm on March 6, 2022, I was not really a fan of ABS.  I’d ridden 40 years without them.  I was “good.”  Plus, I had a bad experience on a 2007 BMW F800S with ABS, that would defeat the brakes too aggressively over bumps, and once refused to brake while I was descending a gravel driveway leaving the Lindale Guzzi rally. 

My world changed on March 6.  I locked up the front on a wet road, tossed my beloved V7 down the street, and broke all the bones in my right ankle.  Much pain, anguish, and lost work. 

I personally will never ride a bike without ABS.  The V7 is out of service.  I’m selling the Ducati 900SS and the BMW F650 because they lack ABS. 

ABS would have totally prevented my spill.  Which in the grand scheme of things was minor—just a broken ankle.  But I pondered all the tens of thousands of miles I ride, at high speed, urban traffic, unknown road traction, rain, slush, etc.  A lock-up under other conditions could have killed me.

I’m on a 2019 Kawasaki Z900 now precisely because I wanted modern ABS.  It is seamless.  Far better than my old BMW. 

I spoke with the engineer who wrote the most recent SAE paper on motorcycle ABS brakes.  He analyzed the tech.  Did a lot of testing.  The results are clear to me; these is minimal downside and huge upside.  Even professional racers, on known dry pavement, cannot “beat” the ABS system.   

Just my thoughts on ABS.  And I’m fully aware that had I read this post a year ago I would have discounted it.  I figured I was “too good” and “too experienced” to need ABS.   I no longer hold that delusion.

Great Post and why there is a benifit to ABS equipped M/C's.  I may prefer without it, but would not waive me off. The systems I have had thus far were transparent to normal riding.  Thanks for sharing

[egschade]

>SNIP<
Same with the quick shifter on the V100, I would opt to not have it, even if it was free. I just don’t want potential gremlins if I can side step them.

I share those same concerns. It's one reason I won't buy a newer BMW and would likely get the vanilla V100 and avoid the "S" version. Electronic suspension, aero wings, quick shifter - I suppose they all work to improve the riding experience but by how much and is it worth the added complexity?

In IT we use the term 'technical debt' which is caused by overly complex code. The cost to maintain systems with high technical debt can be astounding. It's something I would rather NOT have on my motorcycle.