Is the small block the new airhead?

[Travlr]

In an earlier post Kev M wrote:
" I LOVE THE smallblock, it's the second coming (of the airheads), TO ME."

Since I've been considering an airhead, Kev's post got me thinking.  Both are twins, both are shaft drive.  So I did a comparison.

WB: R100R: 58.8"   V7III: 56.9"
HP:  R100R: 60  V7III: 52
Wet Weight: R100R: 469  V7III: 425
Power/weight ratio: R100R: 7.8  V7III: 7.45

Of course the V7III gets you ABS, FI, 6 speed etc.

I put a lot of miles on airheads.  My fav is the R90S.  Perhaps an V7III with cockpit fairing and hard bags?
 

 



Mike

[jas67]

In a word: YES.

[pyoungbl]

Yes but the V7 does just about everything better than any airhead.  My /6 was great to look at and talk about.  It had crappy suspension, brakes and acceleration.  The electrical system would give Lucas something to brag about.  Oddly enough, you can get a used V7 for less $$$ than a /6 due to the cult like following of the latter.

[Kev m]

Why stop the comparison with just the R100... What about the R90, R80, R65 (both chassis).

I've had a couple airheads, and when I first started looking at smallblocks about a decade ago I came to the conclusion that the Guzzi smallblocks were the closest thing to what the airheads were plus some modern amenities and arguably a more engaging motor.

Ymmv

[NC Steve]

Don't  forget the newest Airheads are 24, soon 25 years old.

[wrbix]

Yeah, but.....

where/when is the aftermarket support?

[Kev m]

I don't remember there being THAT much more aftermarket support for airheads in the 90's.

But that was never my point in making the comparison.

The similarities:

* Air-cooled
* 2-valve
* Pushrod
* Twin
* Longitudinal crank
* Shaft
* Dry clutch
* Cartridge oil filters
* Simple valve adjustment

They are more similar than not in things like size and power. Certainly more like each other than most other bikes out there today.

Obviously there's a lengthy list of differences too, but I think that list is a lot bigger with anything currently from JAPanInc, BMW, Triumph, even RE.

Perhaps an Ural solo should be a contender but I think they've evolved differently due to the predominance of sidecar usage.

So yeah I still say they are the heirs of the legacy or the closest thing to one.

[fotoguzzi]

The good old days

[SmithSwede]

Yes, yes they are.   And that’s why I like the small blocks.

I tell people if you like old airheads, you will like a SB Guzzi.  If you hate airheads, you probably won’t like a SB Guzzi.

I had a 1978 BMW R80/7 that I loved to bits, but divorce/first wife caused its loss or I’d still have it. I wound up buying a new 2013 V7 Stone because I figured it was the nearest thing I could find new to my old airhead.   

Overall performance is comparable, which is a performance envelope I grok.  Reasonably quick if you give it lots of throttle.  But you can’t do Banzai passes uphill on a 2 lane road against 3 logging trucks.  Yet plenty of fun on mountain roads—just surf the torque, no need to shift constantly.

All day comfortable with a bikini fairing and the right handlebars (Norman Hyde “M” bars).  I run mine at 80-85 mph all day.   Top speed 100 or maybe 105. 

In my opinion, the Guzzi handles *considerably* better.   Brakes are vastly better.    It is nice to have cast wheels and tubeless tires—no more spoked wheels/tubed tires for me. 

Gas mileage is about the same (41-45 mpg) but I had about a gallon more on the airhead (the Guzzi still has a decently large 5.2 gallon tank). 

I like the Guzzi engine “feel” and vibes a lot more.  The airhead is a neat old funky engine, but the Guzzi is just a lot better. 

Guzzi gear box is considerably smoother.   Still a “long throw” gear box that encourages emphatic shifter action. 

My Guzzi doesn’t have ABS or traction control.   Don’t really want that stuff.

I’m frankly ambivalent about fuel injection and all the other computer stuff.  The really irritating problems I’ve had with the Guzzi have been due to an early ECU failure, then a failed engine temperature sensor, and then a string of crank position sensor failures (or connectors in that circuit).   As much as I like the genuine technological advances of better handling and tubeless tires, I think I’d be just fine with carbs and points compared to ECU and flaky electronics.   

[fossil]

Yeah, but.....

where/when is the aftermarket support?

Well, here in Germany it is extremely good. Only one example: Wunderlich https://www.wunderlich.de/shop/en/classic-by-wunderlich.html?___from_store=de .

A good friend from my flying club has 2 bikes. One an Ur-VFR 750 and one a newly achieved R100/7. The latter because in his youth he had an R80/7 in the same colour (metallic blue). With bikini fairing. I just rode the bike for a longer time. I must say it does not everything worse than my 2013 Stone which I love dearly. The BMW has a dramatically better suspension (ok both bikes have progressive springs in the forks). The seating position is better. It is not in the least as nimble as my Guzzi but equals the Italian bike in neutrality. It is definitely as desirable as my Guzzi. For a longer ride the BMW is the better bike.

By the way before he commissioned the bike he put some work into it. The carbs e.g. he did rebuilt. He was able to get everything he needed for this. Plus an aftermarked electronic ignition. For reasonable prices.

In terms of character these bikes are absolutely comparable.

[wrbix]

Well, here in Germany it is extremely good. Only one example: Wunderlich https://www.wunderlich.de/shop/en/classic-by-wunderlich.html?___from_store=de .

A good friend from my flying club has 2 bikes. One an Ur-VFR 750 and one a newly achieved R100/7. The latter because in his youth he had an R80/7 in the same colour (metallic blue). With bikini fairing. I just rode the bike for a longer time. I must say it does not everything worse than my 2013 Stone which I love dearly. The BMW has a dramatically better suspension (ok both bikes have progressive springs in the forks). The seating position is better. It is not in the least as nimble as my Guzzi but equals the Italian bike in neutrality. It is definitely as desirable as my Guzzi. For a longer ride the BMW is the better bike.

By the way before he commissioned the bike he put some work into it. The carbs e.g. he did rebuilt. He was able to get everything he needed for this. Plus an aftermarked electronic ignition. For reasonable prices.

In terms of character these bikes are absolutely comparable.

Yeah, that’s exactly what I meant...BMW airheads have widespread aftermarket support, Wunderlich, Touratech, Twisted Throttle, etc. See nothing comparable for MG.

[bad Chad]

The aftermarket maybe be smaller in part because original  equipment on the v7 is far more reliable.  There are no carbs to rebuild, no wonky FI to replace, brakes needing upgrading etc.

[Kev m]

The aftermarket maybe be smaller in part because original  equipment on the v7 is far more reliable.  There are no carbs to rebuild, no wonky FI to replace, brakes needing upgrading etc.

For sure, though it's probably always going to be smaller just because of the difference in production numbers. But even though Guzzi smallblocks have been around for decades their peak popularity is still pretty new. And in that, they are STILL PRETTY NEW and don't need a lot of the rebuilding stuff that's currently being offered for airheads only because they've been out of production for so long.

But again, I wasn't comparing the sales success or dealer network or aftermarket support when I made the comment. I was purely talking about the similarities between the bikes (design, ride, feel, and service).

[wrbix]

The aftermarket maybe be smaller in part because original  equipment on the v7 is far more reliable.  There are no carbs to rebuild, no wonky FI to replace, brakes needing upgrading etc.

The aftermarket is less a matter of reliability than it is “farkle-ing” (is that a word?) a bike to ones personal taste in accessories.

[wrbix]

For sure, though it's probably always going to be smaller just because of the difference in production numbers. But even though Guzzi smallblocks have been around for decades their peak popularity is still pretty new. And in that, they are STILL PRETTY NEW and don't need a lot of the rebuilding stuff that's currently being offered for airheads only because they've been out of production for so long.

But again, I wasn't comparing the sales success or dealer network or aftermarket support when I made the comment. I was purely talking about the similarities between the bikes (design, ride, feel, and service).

The aftermarket support for my ‘80s Airheads was quite good in the ‘80s. ......and remains so today.

...and yes I understand and agree with your comparison of the essence of each, but just wish there was comparable support outside OEM. If/when I wanted fairings, windscreens, seats, rearsets, luggage, etc etc for the Airhead there were and are multiple choices available. That’s all I’m sayin’

[Perazzimx14]

The Airhead was released in late 1968 the Small Block Guzzi in 1978. The SB Guzzi is esentially the same as when released 40 years ago so its a bit of stertch to think of it as a new anything.


 

[Kev m]

but just wish there was comparable support outside OEM. If/when I wanted fairings, windscreens, seats, rearsets, luggage, etc etc for the Airhead there were and are multiple choices available. That’s all I’m sayin’

Me too.

[Kev m]

The Airhead was released in late 1968 the Small Block Guzzi in 1978. The SB Guzzi is esentially the same as when released 40 years ago so its a bit of stertch to think of it as a new anyhing.

Not much gets by you.


























Except everything (i.e. the point).

[Perazzimx14]

Your right! I don't get the point.

[Sheepdog]

The Airhead was released in late 1968 the Small Block Guzzi in 1978. The SB Guzzi is esentially the same as when released 40 years ago so its a bit of stertch to think of it as a new anything.

According to the canons of the Airhead Beemer Club, an airhead is any BMW with air-cooled heads...including /2s, R69S’, R60s, R67s, R5s, R26s, etc. That makes the origin of these bikes considerably more aged...

[bad Chad]

According to one of my Guzzi books, the SB was as first sold in 1977, I presume I. Europe.

[ScepticalScotty]

Interesting thread. When I got my license in 1996, there wre three bikes I really liked; SRX600, XBR500 and BMW R65 Mono. A freind had an R65 and it looked like a superb touring bike for 1, and thats what I wanted to do. Maybe with a B750 I have sort of got a refined version. 

[Travlr]

Your right! I don't get the point.

The original airheads were light, simple, air cooled twins with shaft drives.  They were easy to work on and friendly to ride.  The motto of the BMW Airheads club is "simple by choice."

Many of us still enjoy that style bike.  In an era of increasing complexity, the V7 still retains many of those characteristics. 

Mike

[Kev m]

The original airheads were light, simple, air cooled twins with shaft drives.  They were easy to work on and friendly to ride.  The motto of the BMW Airheads club is "simple by choice."

Many of us still enjoy that style bike.  In an era of increasing complexity, the V7 still retains many of those characteristics. 

Mike

Logic is Lost on Lance

[Cam3512]

Logic is Lost on Lance

So is Moto Guzzi.

[Kev m]

So is Moto Guzzi.

True, but that's a totally separate conversation.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Perhaps the Subject line needs to read: "Is the '09 and later V7 series the new Airhead?" Even that might not be specific enough though. 

[Kev m]

Perhaps the Subject line needs to read: "Is the '09 and later V7 series the new Airhead?" Even that might not be specific enough though. 

Perhaps people ought to take this a little less seriously.... and maybe measure with yardsticks instead of micrometers.

[Perazzimx14]

Logic is Lost on Lance

Are the oilheads any harder to work on than the air heads? If not are the oil heads the new airheads?

 

[Kev m]

Are the oilheads any harder to work on? So are the oil heads the new airheads?

Legitimate question. Of course it's not the only metric I used when making my comparison, so in a word "NO".

Even my 96 R1100RS was certainly "more" complicated including longer valve adjustment procedures due to the 4V heads.

But my comparison is based on much more than that.

I don't see how one would a V7 is more like an airhead than an oilhead on many bases, despite the fact that a decade later the smallblock got EFI and just recently they finally added ABS.

The quote that started this thread should be taken in context of how I've explained it regularly over the last decade or two. That the Guzzi smallblock line is the closest thing you're gonna get new today to what the Airhead was and might have become if BMW had continued to built it and simply modernized some components (like adding EFI and ABS).

But INSTEAD BMW went a different way with the oilhead and that was much more different than most of the airheads from motor to suspension/chassis despite the fact that a few of the late airheads had paralever most did not and AFAIK none of them had a telelever (which really changes the front end feel and performance).

So again my conclusions.... the closest we have new today closest to the spirit of the airhead and pretty damn "simple by choice" bla bla bla