Author Topic: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark  (Read 13380 times)

Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2020, 08:50:25 AM »
If you need to purchase a tacho connector for the Guzzi origal tacho then you need a SS10-26-2 Tyco/Amp connector.
Note this is a little bit different than the Speedo connector so they can not interchanged by accident.
It will else not be possible to obtain from Guzzi a spare connector for the original Guzzi Tacho.

remains still the question : making a short connection of the 5 wires direct into the harness or connecting to the blue dadh with a slight modification to double the 15 amp wire into a 15 and 5 amp-wire.

Marcel - Belgium

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2020, 12:17:35 PM »
Marcel - Belgium
Thanks for the information, I dont need it myself as I have the Special with 2 clocks
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Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2020, 06:01:33 PM »
The connector used by the tacho : 

Tyco/AMP SS10-26S-2 sold p.ex by Corsa rechnic. (do not forget the pins you need 5 at least but certainly not 26)
The conector is different from the connector for the speedo so ou can not interchange them.

I would make the connections with the speedo cable - somewhere under the fueltank I supose.
Remains still the option of the Blue dash CAN connector.

I do not think there will be communications problems between the computer and the Tacho and the Speedo.
Nor the Tacho nor the Speed are instructing the computer they are just read-outs, nothing more.
A CAN bus works with messages and both do only read them and do not send back messages.

Marcel - Belgium

Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2020, 06:11:37 PM »
To Kiwi_Roy : be happy you do not need to add a Tacho but I supose there hundreds of Guzzi riders struggling with this problem.
                    Let us hope we can solve it definitly.

Wildguzzi.com

Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2020, 06:11:37 PM »

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2020, 07:27:12 PM »
To Kiwi_Roy : be happy you do not need to add a Tacho but I supose there hundreds of Guzzi riders struggling with this problem.
                    Let us hope we can solve it definitly.
Mc Tes, you seem to be very knowledgable on this subject do you know anything about the CANbus protocol used by the Guzzi tachometers, we can get a third party instrument in Nth America that uses CANbus at quite reasonable cost (< US$100) and the connection would be easy. Gauges are available in several sizes and can be configured to look like a Guzzi gauge.
From the Speedhut site "Freedom CAN-BUS Tachometers will work with all CAN (J1979) protocol compatible ECUs"
It goes on to say J1979 is used in The America and England but doesn't mention Italy, I wonder if they have to comply for Nth America?
It seems to indicate that, I quote
Freedom CAN-bus gauges will only work on vehicles that are 2008 or newer and manufactured for the USA, Canada, or the UK.
 The full text is here https://www.speedhut.com/about-freedomgauges.html#canbus
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 12:13:09 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2020, 06:55:13 AM »
Well what I could read I must conclude that we will have a clash beween the SAE J1939 and SAE J1979 systems.
Guzzi Uses a CSMA/CS system which is about the same idea as how internet works.
It manage  detection of message collisions but they solved this by using twisted wires to have full duplex system which avoids collisions.

Ofcourse this is important for tha aftermarket to know for what system is is intended.
In Europe it is Magneti Marelli the market leader and worldwide used.
In the Guzzi VIII there is a Magneti Marelli MIU G3 ECU based on the J1939 system.

Maybe the tacho of Speedhut has been made in compatibility with both systems???
I see the warning is very clear. I would not try to use this tacho with guzzi signals.
As I am not an electronic engineer I would do this to avoid greater damage.

Marcel - Belgium.

The safest is to buy the Guzzi kit with all the items to build up the tacho, buy a connector , make the cable and connect it into the harness as near as pissible to the speedometer.
But that is what I would do.


I

Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2020, 07:02:37 AM »

CORRECTION :

As I am not an electronic engineer I would NOT!!! do this to avoid greather dammage.

Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2020, 11:54:47 AM »
To Kiwi_Roy : be happy you do not need to add a Tacho but I supose there hundreds of Guzzi riders struggling with this problem.
                    Let us hope we can solve it definitly.

Not sure what the problem is.  You can set the shift light to flash at a specific RPM and go solid at another higher RPM. 

I set mine to where I 'cruise' just below the light flashing, 'spirited' in the flashing zone, and make sure I shift when it gets solid. 
2022 Moto Guzzi V85TT Guardia D'onore
2018 V7 III Carbon Dark #0009 of 1921
2018 Road Glide Special
2021 Kawasaki KLX300SM
2017 Suzuki Van Van 200
2009 Harley Davidson Softail Custom

Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2020, 12:21:24 PM »
The idea is how to add a tacho to a Guzzi who has not got one from the start.
It has nothing to do with the function of the speedometer.

For me it has to have a tacho, but this just a point of view. Nothing more.
Even if it is just for esthetic reasons.

Marcel - Belgium.

Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2020, 12:38:51 PM »
I would not try to mix aftermarket parts with the Guzzi for the tacho ofcourse.
The fysical cabling and the tachoharware is one part of the problem, it will just work well if this fits with the software cooked into the Guzzi tacho.(This is Guzzi firmware)
It is not just adding a classical tacho. If you look trough the workshop manual you will find a connector (3 wires) which can be doubled ( I do supose)  to make a extra contact for a classical Tacho based  on hardware principles.  It is there because Guzzi uses if as information source for his rpm system.
But  then you have  an esthetic differnce. Speedo and tacho are different.
This Guzzi Tacho is software driven and that belongs only to Guzzi. I would not take the risk using something else.

Hope I can one day, hope soon, can post a picture of my Limited version with a original Guzzi Tacho.
Have to be patient for the moment.

Marcel - Belgium

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2020, 10:24:49 PM »
I would not try to mix aftermarket parts with the Guzzi for the tacho ofcourse.
The fysical cabling and the tachoharware is one part of the problem, it will just work well if this fits with the software cooked into the Guzzi tacho.(This is Guzzi firmware)
It is not just adding a classical tacho. If you look trough the workshop manual you will find a connector (3 wires) which can be doubled ( I do supose)  to make a extra contact for a classical Tacho based  on hardware principles.  It is there because Guzzi uses if as information source for his rpm system.
But  then you have  an esthetic differnce. Speedo and tacho are different.
This Guzzi Tacho is software driven and that belongs only to Guzzi. I would not take the risk using something else.
Hope I can one day, hope soon, can post a picture of my Limited version with a original Guzzi Tacho.
Have to be patient for the moment.
Marcel - Belgium
Marcel,
           I hear you on mixing aftermarket parts but if we didn't we wouldn't be typical Guzzi owners would we, that's the whole idea of having a common communication bus.
Anyway I sent off a note to Speedhut help desk giving the information you sent just to see what they will say.
I asked if the two systems were compatible.
I will post it here if they reply.
Roy
Update Added Speedhut Site - You have to design your own gauge, look, colour, font, logo, graphic etc, they even put the Guzzi logo on it for you
https://www.speedhut.com
Click on each field then "Apply" to filter the options  Gauges, Individual Gauges "apply", Tachometer "apply"................... ................... .
https://www.speedhut.com/gauges/Tachometers/?catid=f232%7Cf9 Eventually you get down to just one gauge left
https://www.speedhut.com/gauges/Tachometers/3-3-8-inch/CAN-Bus-(OBDII)/8K/?catid=f232%7Cf9%7Cf254%7Cf310%7Cf169%7Cf221
Then the fun starts and you have to pick Colour, Font, Tick style, Graphic etc
One thing Don't go with a reset button through the glass, trust me on that.
Yes they give the wiring, they use an OBDII plug, perhaps thats the difference right there beween the SAE J1939 and SAE J1979 systems.
Back in 2010 they had an Expo to try and merge the systems as far as scan tools go, perhaps that only applies to the ECU not the dumb gauges.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 04:52:38 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2020, 01:49:23 AM »
Kiwi_Roy,
Good idea.
Hope they give a wiring sheme on how to connect there Tacho and give more info on the compatibility and explain wht it would work.

Marcel - Belgium

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2020, 05:22:33 AM »
Speedhut got straight back, their CAN-Bus tach is NOT COMPATIBLE but they did include a Standard alternative
Hello Roy,
Our J1979 is not compatible.  option from us would be our standard tachometer that compatible with all types of ignition (Single Coil, Coil Pack, Coil On
Plug, or Tach output from ECU/Aftermarket Ignition)
https://www.speedhut.com/gauges/Tachometers/Standard-Tachometer/?catid=f232|f9|f217

--------------------------------
So there you go, I'm not sure why their filter didn't work properly, try this one https://www.speedhut.com/gauges/Tachometers/Standard-Tachometer/?catid=f232%7Cf9%7Cf217
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 06:05:42 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2020, 05:49:42 AM »
Roy, thanks so this is cleared.

Guzzi picks uo from the classical connector (3 wires ) (in the SERVICE STATION MANUAL 2Q000297 the pic on table f3) for own use and redistribute this info via the MIU G3 on he bus.
I supose these 3 wires can be doubled and used for a classical tacho if one is happy with that.

The option for the guzzi tachi is one that goes over the 5 wires and a interconnection in the harness or to be tested via the Bluedadh connector.

I'll see with the dealer what is best to do. keep everybod informed.

Marcel - Belgium

Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2020, 08:16:09 AM »
It is done. I have a V7 III Limted with a Tacho orinally Guzzi Tacho.



Offline Kev m

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2020, 09:48:07 AM »
It is done. I have a V7 III Limted with a Tacho orinally Guzzi Tacho.




Awesome!

Would you be so kind to summarize the final details for future owners?
Current Fleet

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Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2020, 11:10:50 AM »
Kev, I'll try to do it.

1. All data information on the Guzzi V7 III circulates via a twisted pair of wires. (This gives full duplex communication and a better shielding towards noise on the cwires)
2. The ECU of the Guzzi is a Magnetti Marelli MIU G3 (It uses the SAE J1939 protocol and is not compatible with the SAE J1979 protocol - So never mix these two systems - keep Guzzi the original tacho which uses the wright protocol)
3. The connection is not of teh classical type (3 wire system) although this 3 wire connector is present and used by Guzzi itself to feed the ECU.
4. The tacho is fed by a 5 wire cable (or a cable made up with 5 wires where the data cables(2 wires must be a twisted pair).
5. The parts to build the Guzzi tacho itself be ordered here :
     https://www.parts-motoguzzi.com/moto-guzzi-motorcycles/750-MOTO-GUZZI-MOTORCYCLES/V7/2018/V7-III-Milano-750-E4-ABS/Lights--Instruments/Instruments/1350/33/7292/2829
     Here do not order - the t° sensor
                               - instrument cluster MPH/H or KMS/H as you already have these.
6. To make your cable to connect the tacho you need 1 - the 5 wire cable
                                                                            1 - connector Tyco/AMP SS10-26s-2 as sold by Corsa Technics (a US company!)
                                                                            5 - pins at least to insert into the connector (a few more will do no harm)
                                                                            1 tool to insert and retrieve these pins
7 The connection has to be made following the sheme a found in this topic. (supplied by Bill)

With this info my dealer made me the tacho and it works.
Take this thru with your dealer and let him  do it. Your dealer is the only who can take the warranty of doing this or you can always do it at own risk. Yout own choise.
So for me my dealer did it. I only supplied him with  basic informations and it seemed to be enough for him.
Guzzi does not sell the cable and the connector!  nor they supply a complete set to add a tacho. I do not know why but it is just like that.
An alternatif is to buy at Guzzi a complete cable harness for a V7 III who is equiped with a Tacho (p.ex the MIlano - the Special ..)and use the cable and the connector for your  project and do connect these 5 wires the same way it is done at the Guzzi plant.

Sheap is ofcourse something else.
Marcel Belgium

Offline guzzi771

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2020, 05:34:35 PM »
I added a multimedia platform to my V7III carbon shine now I have a tach and much more

Offline Bulldog9

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2020, 06:15:30 PM »
Not ideal, but if you really want/need a tach, this may be an option. There are more expensive options that use GPS for speedo. Unsure if this is compatible with the iii series, though I know a few folks who have put them on with good results.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DTE94SI/?coliid=I13U0ZM3YBEEEA&colid=2WX86SK6HNKEM&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07HF8N8FF/ref=psdc_404770011_t3_B00DTE94SI
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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2020, 05:08:11 PM »
Having some extra time on my hands as I wait for my V7 III to be delivered ( :laugh: I'm retired) I pulled this CANbus tachometer thread a bit further.

SAE J1939 defines layers 1 - 5 (of seven) of the OSI protocol.  These five layers are essentially the physical (little "p" because big "P" is the name of Layer 1) associated with moving electrons around and when-where-how messages are sent and received.

SAE J1979 defines the message content meanings (OBD-II Parameter IDs, I believe this is Layer 7 Application).

So I believe what is needed is a connector matching the MGs BlueDash on one end and an OBD-II connector on the other end.  Then the SpeedHut GF-HRNS-06 OBD Harness would connect their CANbus tachometer to the OBD-II connector.  Depending on the MG-side BlueDash connector type and pinout this wiring could be simplified.

Amazon offers J1939 to OBD-II adapters.  They are just mapping one connector's pins to another connector's pins -- no electronics involved.  Amazon also offers OBD-II to Bluetooth adapters for Android, iPhone and Windows.  An app from several sources is also required.  So for less than $50 I can verify if the J1979 engine speed PID is transmitted out the OBD-II connector and therefore acceptable to the SpeedHut tachometer.

I have a Lonelec GUZZIDIAG kit for the Norge.  I think with the proper BlueDash to OBD-II cable I can use it on my Windows laptop and display the J1979 PIDs.

Would someone kindly post a picture of the V7 III BlueDash connector so I can start finding a match.  I think it looks like the righthand connector of the MMP adapter but would like to make sure.  Thanks.



Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2020, 12:36:25 AM »
hello,
I do not have a picture of the Blue Dash connector but it is located under the seat and and it is a white plactic connector.
A sson as I can get a pic of this connector I will come back on this.
My initial idea was to connect from this blue dash to the tacho connector. (an original MG tacho)
If you read throu this topic you will see how I would have done it.
Of course the way I finnaly did it is the most expensive but it works wonderwell.

Hope I can give you this picture.


Mc Tes

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2020, 01:11:10 AM »
A standard Speedhut is the simple way to go Not Canbus, a tach taking pulses from one of the coils, you can easily configure it to look similar to the Guzzi speedo.
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Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2020, 01:30:54 AM »
There are always several solutions. Depends on what you like and want.
The solution you like is the best beside all the others.

McTes

Offline Zoom Zoom

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2020, 12:36:41 PM »
It's kind of a shame that Guzzi doesn't offer a tach kit as an accessory. I would think some would be willing to buy a plug and play kit for a V7 without a factory tach. They did that for the Cali models below the EV. It was pricey at 600 bucks USD as I recall.

Multi Media Platform doesn't count! Not if what you want is two nice gauges with a needle that sweeps across their faces.

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Bert Remington

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2020, 01:06:37 PM »
Mc Tes -- I did read through your excellent posts!  Multiple times!  I really appreciate the detailed information you provided and it was my jumping off point for my investigation.  Much thanks. :smiley:

I'm looking forward to your picture although it looks like an ordinary Molex connector.

SpeedHut makes quality gauges that are immensely tailorable.  If I'm correct about the J1939/J1979 CANbus relationship and MG's likely adherence to them, then the BlueDash interface imposes the fewest modifications to the MG wiring harness, always a warranty consideration.  So SpeedHut via CANbus looks best to me.

Having said that, it looks like battery-regulator-connections has taken precedence to a possible tachometer.  Those three plus replacing the fire-danger catalytic mufflers take precedence.

Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2020, 12:30:37 AM »
I saw the bluedashconnector as a white plastic connector (I think it was a 9 pins one - MK9) but I am not sure, it its just from memmory.
But your local dealer, if he has bikes in his showroom (it is present on all models of V7 III) he can show you the connector. It is hidden behind the side pannel. Removing the saddle is easy, the side panel too.
I think this wil be the quickest way to take a good picture from this connector.

Mc Tes

Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2020, 02:00:29 AM »
Hope the images will be visible.

Mc Tes

Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2020, 02:02:14 AM »

Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2020, 02:04:43 AM »
The cable is marked MGMP (Moto Guzzi Multimedia Platform)
Its is gray. So you see how memmory can be bad.

Mc Tes

Offline Mc Tes

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Re: Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2020, 02:26:38 AM »
As you can see on the second picture, it becomes clear this is the connector with a vergincounterconnec tor fitted to it.
You separate them with a small screwdriver.
If you see to the pictures of the multimedia kit you can see that at one end there is that counterconnector.
Hope it all becomes a little bit more clear.

Mc Tes

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