Snake ID (NGC)

[Kev m]

I know there are a ton of guys here with WAY more experience than me in just about anything I can think of. Mind if I hit you guys up with a nature question - specifically a snake ID?

So we were hanging on the dock the other day when we were surprised by this visitor swimming down the shallow water by the beach.



My neighbor later told me he's seen it before and thought it was a Garter Snake. However unless he's thinking of another snake, I think he might be mistaken. What little research I tried on my phone that day suggests a Garter (at least the types around here) should have head to tail horizontal stripes on them (one on one side, two on the other or something like that).

I'm thinking it's a Northern Water Snake. It's hard to see in that pic, but the coloring and the horizontal bands make me think that's the right ID.


http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/ensp/pdf/species/no_water_snake.pdf


Example of a Northern Water Snake:


Anyone with more experience?

I took my original photo in full format from the phone and played with it in photoshop to zoom in and play with the contrast/brightness so you can see it better:

[ken farr]

....never get out of the boat, never get out of the boat....


kjf

oh, and I have no idea what kind of snake it is.

[Kev m]

LOL...

Jenn and I were swimming in the lake yesterday (just after a nice mid-day ride on the Duc and V7).

We were out towards the middle of the lake, kinda like her and Fi in this pick from the day before:



and I asked her what she's do if she saw the snake then.


"Scream" was her answer.  :D

[yogidozer]

looks like northern watersnake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_water_snake

[Guzzistajohn]

Nope, I'd say black snake. Not a bad dude to have around. Non venomous, eats mice, not aggressive.

[Cam3512]

Yea, probably Black snake or Pine snake.   Pet it and see what happens?

[Kev m]

Well water or black snake makes no difference to me as long as he eats mice he's welcome!

Does it make any difference to your opinions that the Northern Water Snake PDF description from the NJ DEP says that:

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/ensp/pdf/species/no_water_snake.pdf

"Older water snakes are much darker, usually brown or black with only faint remnants of
pattern."

It's just a curiosity thing at this point.

[yogidozer]

I thought black snake at first, but the last, enhanced picture looks a bit different

[Triple Jim]

I'd say you're right about the Northern Water Snake.  We have similar snakes here, and some of them even look a lot like Copperheads, but they're harmless.

In my area, all poisonous snakes are Pit Vipers, which have cat-like vertical slit pupils.  That makes it easy to tell if a snake is dangerous.  Snakes can strike only about 1/3 of their length, so it's safe to get close enough to see the pupil shape.

[normzone]

You have to get close enough to see their eyes to determine if they're pit vipers?

And my rule of thumb is snakes can strike their length.

 :pop

[Triple Jim]

You have to get close enough to see their eyes to determine if they're pit vipers?

No, but not being a snake expert, it's an easy way for me to make a positive ID.

And my rule of thumb is snakes can strike their length.

 :pop

The information varies around 1/3 to 1/2 its length.  The local ranger station put on a presentation that we took the kids to, and we were told about 1/3.  Other things I've read talk about 1/2.  Maybe some snakes do better, but apparently Pit Vipers don't.

[normzone]

All I deal with is rattlesnakes out here - a length seems like a wise margin. And species ID is pretty easy, they usually inform you.

[Dilliw]

We don't have those around here so I'd say it's your Yankee water snake.

From the Wiki it says, "They darken as they age. Some will become almost completely black."

[Triple Jim]

Norm, aren't Rattlesnakes a lot more dangerous than Copperheads?  

Copperheads mainly cause tissue damage with their enzymes, so you need to message the bite and exercise immediately to spread it around and dilute it.  When we were kids, we were all told to put on a tourniquet, cut, suck, etc., but the ranger said that's a good way to lose a big chunk of muscle if a Copperhead bites you.

[normzone]

I don't have a technically correct answer off the top of my head - we grow up with rattlers out here and take them for granted. The word "copperhead" scares us though.

I do have a copperhead story, secondhand. A bunch of teenagers are sunning, drinking, smoking on a raft anchored in a lake. A copperhead swims past, and one of them grabs it and throws it up on the raft.

Your imagination can complete the scene. It only takes about half a second.

[rocker59]

Norm, aren't Rattlesnakes a lot more dangerous than Copperheads?  

Copperheads mainly cause tissue damage with their enzymes, so you need to message the bite and exercise immediately to spread it around and dilute it.  When we were kids, we were all told to put on a tourniquet, cut, suck, etc., but the ranger said that's a good way to lose a big chunk of muscle if a Copperhead bites you.

The thing about Copperheads and Cotton Mouths is that they are aggressive.  They'll come after you.

Rattle Snakes around here will usually retreat.  Not so, the Copperheads.

[normzone]

Ah, the above story may have been about a Cotton Mouth - the years have faded that story.

[lucian]

Sorry can't help on the I.D. but I would sooo not be swimming in a lake that had those, whatever they are.

[Triple Jim]

The thing about Copperheads and Cotton Mouths is that they are aggressive.  They'll come after you.

I guess like other animals, there are subpopulations of Copperheads.  We have quite a few that make it into our yard, but they hide and tend to go away if we're around.  Now if you attack them, they definitely stand their ground and fight back. 

We like Black Snakes, and encourage them to stay around, not only to catch rodents, but I understand that they're territorial and drive away Copperheads as well.

[tiger_one]

There are lots of snakes that are good to have around, me thinks that is one.  Similar in color to our water moccasin, but much too skinny and long.

We caught lots of Hog Noses back when I was a kid, and tried to sell them as pets to friends.  They were fun to mess with, but I'm sure we pestered them to no end.

[Kev m]

Well, I'm getting most of my information from the internet as I've lived in few areas that had much in the way of snakes before (not that they seem all that common around here either).

If I believe the NJ DEP brochure both the Timber Rattlers (that can be found in the Pine Barrens) are endangered and rare, and the Copperheads are further north than us...

...but forewarned is forearmed.

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/ensp/pdf/snake_broch07.pdf

Sorry can't help on the I.D. but I would sooo not be swimming in a lake that had those, whatever they are.

Nah, we've been here a year and this is the first time we've seen one. I don't think they're common, nor anything to worry about other than making sure you don't surprise one.

[nick949]

I'm thinking it's a Northern Water Snake. It's hard to see in that pic, but the coloring and the horizontal bands make me think that's the right ID.

Anyone with more experience?

Northern Water Snake - definitely.  Harmless, but a bit likely to get upset with you.  I chivied this one off the road the other day. He didn't approve.

Nick

[Kev m]

Northern Water Snake - definitely.  Harmless, but a bit likely to get upset with you.  I chivied this one off the road the other day. He didn't approve.

Nick

Yeah, he didn't like me approaching to take the picture even though I was up on the dock and keeping my distance. He sorta scurried and maybe there was a quick hiss... I forget.

[rocker59]

I guess like other animals, there are subpopulations of Copperheads.  

Here in The Ozarks, Copperheads will definitely come toward you, while Timber Rattlers will stand their ground or retreat.

But you're right about sub-populations.

Last year while in Northern New Mexico, I was amazed at how bold, and even aggressive, the coyotes were.  Here where I live, it's hard to get within a couple hundred yards of them, and they always run if they think I'm coming at them.  Not so, the coyotes in New Mexico last year.  They'd actually stalk us when we were out trail riding with the horses.  Kind of an uncomfortable feeling.

[Sasquatch Jim]

  Yes that definitely is a snake.  From the shape of his head, a non venomous one.  Just let him go about his snakey business.
  BTW just for info to those who live where they do, a hog nosed snake is venomous.  They have never been known to hurt people but
 There is always a chance for a first.  That critter is what they call a rear fanged snake.  Instead of the injecting fangs being out front like a moccasin,
 or snattlerake, his poison fangs are at the rear of his mouth and about the only way he could envenomate you is to bite the web of skin
 between your thumb and index finger where he could get it far enough into his mouth to hook in.  His venom is not real high on the lethality scale either
 unless you are a small mouse or shrew which incidentally is also venomous

[Sasquatch Jim]

Here in The Ozarks, Copperheads will definitely come toward you, while Timber Rattlers will stand their ground or retreat.

But you're right about sub-populations.

Last year while in Northern New Mexico, I was amazed at how bold, and even aggressive, the coyotes were.  Here where I live, it's hard to get within a couple hundred yards of them, and they always run if they think I'm coming at them.  Not so, the coyotes in New Mexico last year.  They'd actually stalk us when we were out trail riding with the horses.  Kind of an uncomfortable feeling.

 Southwestern coyotes are hungrier and more desperate.

[rocker59]

Southwestern coyotes are hungrier and more desperate.

Yeah, you would think that.  But I was in an area full of prairie dogs (Sangre de Cristos near the Colorado border).  Unbelievable numbers of prairie dogs.  You'd think the coyotes would be fat and lazy from eating the dang things...

[davedel44]

 Snakes can strike only about 1/3 of their length, so it's safe to get close enough to see the pupil shape.

Go right ahead Jim ;D

Dave
Galveston

[Dilliw]

You are more likely to be bitten by a copperhead than any of these other snakes and least likely to die from it.  Mostly that's a numbers game but copperheads are communal and I've had one come at me because I was between it and it's friend(s).  They also let you step on them in the yard before they bite (a friend did that one).  They make a lot of that model.

I think you have to work hard to get bitten by a water moc.  First of all you need to hang out in swampy places.  Then you need to really piss them off or otherwise they will just curl up and show you their mouth.  They are easy to identify from other water snakes too.  Look at the picture of the fellow above and you see he only has about 1/4 of his body above water.  A moc floats and will lift his head up when on the water.  I have a pond in my back yard and see a lot of them.  Get bit by one of those and you need to get help quick.

Those little rattlesnakes they have out West are probably the most dangerous.  Suckers are everywhere and with all the heat they are fast little buggers.  And when you get bit you are usually in the middle of nowhere.  The canebrakes and timber rattlers we have around here are nocturnal and you almost never see them unless you really go looking. When you do they usually just coil up and make a lot of noise.

[Triple Jim]

Go right ahead Jim ;D

Dave
Galveston

 :D  I do, but often to get a good photo.  Here's one from a couple days ago, not poisonous, of course.