ZERO electric motorcycles starting to get practical

[canuguzzi]

What would it take for you to buy one? I'm asking those who might consider getting an electric bike.

The range of these electric bikes is starting to get practical for everyday commuting use. At close to 200 miles it could even be good for day trips where you aren't droning on the highways.

I think they'll get over the 200 mile endurance mark pretty soon and that puts them into the range of many bikes with a full tank of fuel. It sure can't meet the needs of the 300-500 mile per days riders but then a lot of bikes with short range fuel tanks aren't really comfortable for those distances either. They can be but I'm referring to most.

The prices are the stopper right now. At $10k+ without the extra charge cell its a lot of money for a limited range vehicle. 

I'm starting to see more and more electric vehicle charging stations, even in places away from the cities.

Its just a matter of a little time before these bikes come down in price, say to the $8k level and their ranges hit 200+ miles and then I bet sales really start to move.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php

[omega1987]

I love these bikes and would love one alongside the guzzi for commuting use. What puts me off is price and my own ignorance of maintaining an electric bike (I tend to do my own) although I understand they're much simpler than regular bikes.

The price would have to be around £5-6k and I'd want the replacement batteries to be capable of at least 20k miles and cost no more than £500 to replace.

[canuguzzi]

I love these bikes and would love one alongside the guzzi for commuting use. What puts me off is price and my own ignorance of maintaining an electric bike (I tend to do my own) although I understand they're much simpler than regular bikes.

The price would have to be around �5-6k and I'd want the replacement batteries to be capable of at least 20k miles and cost no more than �500 to replace.

I found this about their batteries:

150+ MI RANGE / 300,000+ MI LIFETIME

I think they are going the route of just replacing the batteries for you if they don't last for the duration expected. They state the expected life of the batteries is the expected life of the bike. That is probably why the price is so high, they know and expect to replace batteries if they fail at their cost, not the owners.

It looks like the other maintenance is the same as for any motorcycle, brakes, suspension and a belt drive which in other bikes has proven to be very reliable.

At $7-8k I'd buy one just to have for short trips and runs to the city although I would want at least a 200 mile trip endurance.

[Sasquatch Jim]

 Short trips are bad for conventional motorcycles.  Electric bikes don't care.

[omega1987]

Those figures are impressive and I really liked the bikes when I saw them at the NEC a few months back.

Most of my usage is commuting but I do try to get at least one decent tour in each year. I can see these bikes being excellent commuters but I'm not sure about tourers as I would often aim to do more than 200 miles in a day. I recently replaced my 125cc and 2300cc bikes for one which I think is a good compromise between the two (I.e. The guzzi 750), I can see electric bikes being used alongside a conventional bike or just by commuters but we need either hydrogen fuel celled or rapid charging bikes to fill both niches in my opinion.

[nunzio]

battery life 300,000 miles......warranty only for 100,000...must not be too sure of the 300,000 mile figure 

[Adan]

If you do the math, an ebike might be cost-effective even at current prices, but it all depends on your situation.  I decided in 2013 that the Brammo Empulse, at $14,000 (after rebates), would be cost-effective given 5 years of commuting (50 miles roundtrip).  Being able to park in the garage and charge up at work sealed the deal in my mind.

So far, after almost 3 years, it's been great.  There's two things you might not realize until you actually try this home.

1) An ebike is significantly better for commuting than a gas one.  No worries, minimal fuss, no hot idling in traffic.  They are quite simply better at getting from point A to point B if the distance is within their range.  But . . .

2) ebikes are really not much fun to ride.  At least in my opinion.  Once the novelty wore off, I could find very little pleasure in pleasure-riding.  Without the thrum of a motor, I'm just bored. 

But I'm quite happy to have what I consider to be maybe the best commuting vehicle ever invented.

[JeffOlson]

For short trips, where you can recharge between rides, they might make some sense. However, they make no sense at all for longer trips.

I could not ride one 150 miles up I-5 to our cabin. At 70 mph, I would travel only 61 miles ($10,995) to 98 miles ($16,669 or $18,669) before running out of power. And it is not like you can stop and recharge quickly. (They take hours to recharge.) I would be stranded by the side of the road, and AAA would not come to my rescue.

On top of that, they are quite expensive, even with the 10% tax credit.

I much rather have a Moto Guzzi (or a Triumph, or a Harley Davidson, or...)

[canuguzzi]

Called them. 5 years and 100,000 miles on the bikes now, including the battery.

First non-weather miserable day, headed for the test ride. They have a short fairing in the works but maybe its time to take the plunge.

They charge tank can accept a charge as fast as the charger can deliver it.

Something in addition to the Norge, not to replace it.

Less expense and motorcycles never seem to mesh.

[sturgeon]

Battery technology is getting better by leaps and bounds. A few years back most people sneered at electric cars. Elon Musk and Tesla have proved that it is a very viable commercial proposition. And now further battery research will undoubtedly come up with something even better. I'd even bet that HD will come up with something suitably teeth-rattling and ear-drum-piercing to replicate the HD 'experience' on an ebike.

[stormshearon]

Tesla has a negative cash flow, and does not expect to have a positive one until 2020 - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-04/as-tesla-gears-up-for-suv-investors-ask-where-the-profits-are. If they were not being propped up with tax money, and lots of it, they would have gone bust already.

As interesting as the tech is, until the price of e-vehicles matches gas\diesel vehicles with re-fueling times that match, they just won't be taking over anytime soon - unless the government mandates them.

That said, I got to do the Harley e-bike demo ride and was impressed with the bike, just not the range, price (estimated) or re-fueling times.

[rocker59]

In the USA, Internal Combustion cars, trucks, and tractors only completely displaced horses & mules in the 1940s, when the internal combustion vehicles finally became cheaper to buy and maintain than horses & mules, buggies & wagons. 

In the USA, Steam locomotives were replaced in the 1950s by Diesel-Electric locomotives, once the diesels became powerful enough and economical enough to replace the steam-powered locomotives.

Those changes happened because the technology and economics made it happen. On their own.  No subsidies.

Electric cars and motorcycles will not be mainstream until they can beat the performance, economy, & maintenance of the existing technology.  It may happen someday, but that's not today.  It's not tomorrow, or next year.  Without the subsidies, the electric car/bike industry wouldn't even be where it is today.

I love the idea of an electric car or motorcycle for commuting and trips to the corner store.  But the economics of owning multiple vehicles for multiple jobs doesn't make sense for the broader market.  Having to keep an internal combustion car or motorcycle for longer trips means that the electric ones will remain toys and curiosities, except maybe for people in large metros who don't really use a personal car for travel.

Once the electric cars and motorcycles can be driven at interstate speeds for hundreds of miles at a time, then recharged in minutes, then maybe they will be able to make an impact on the market.

Cars, trucks, farm tractors, and diesel locomotives provided huge economical advantages over their predecessors.  Electric has not shown that it can provide advantages over internal combustion.  It will take natural forces to do that.  Either gasoline and diesel will need to get REALLY expensive, or technology will need to make electric REALLY economical.  Time will tell which will be which.

[Semper-guzzi]

I'm in the market for a smaller displacement commuting / dual sport bike. I really like the CSC RX3. If Zero can make a motorcycle with 150 freeway mile range that can accept luggage without seriously putting a large dent into that figure, and I could afford it, I'd be all over it. The only two bikes I'm looking at right now (besides Guzzi) are ZERO and the RX3. That's all my mind wants to compliment the Jackal.

[dlapierre]

" the economics of owning multiple vehicles for multiple jobs doesn't make sense for the broader market."

It looks to me like several of us already have multiple vehicles for multiple jobs. I know I do. But, I join with the view that the price still a bit too high (especially here in Canada) and the range a bit too short for me to get one. I'm waiting for the day, though.

[not-fishing]

I found this about their batteries:

150+ MI RANGE / 300,000+ MI LIFETIME

Rideapart did a real world test and the range was more like 75 miles.

Then you have my real world experience with neglected li-poly batteries that need to be charged every couple of months or they deteriorate.  Now you wouldn't have to replace the whole pack when that happens just a few cells or learn to live with the reduced range.

[rocker59]

" the economics of owning multiple vehicles for multiple jobs doesn't make sense for the broader market."

It looks to me like several of us already have multiple vehicles for multiple jobs. I know I do. But, I join with the view that the price still a bit too high (especially here in Canada) and the range a bit too short for me to get one. I'm waiting for the day, though.

I submit that we are not the "broader market".  Most people in The USA do not own a garage full of motorcycles and keep two or three cars in the driveway. 

By "the broader market", I mean the average person who owns one vehicle and uses it for everything.  Daily commuting, grocery-getting, and for travel.  For those people, electric will only be a curiosity until it's performance and economy can meet or exceed the Honda Accord, etc., that is their main mode of transport.

[Groover]

Don't know, if these end up being like every battery powered drill I've owned where no matter when I use it, the batteries are dead or need replaced because they won't charge anymore, then I'll pass. If they make them with a 200 mile extension cord, then I'm in!

Jokes aside, if I had a spare 10k and they manufacture guaranteed healthy batteries for the life of the bike, then I'd be open to one. Kick starting my vespas gets old sometimes, so I'd use it for work commuting and grocery runs. I'm assuming these have electric start, right? 

[Groover]

Mod for sound satisfaction...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krPQ1PMM00Y

[rob-mg]

My decision a couple of months ago to purchase a new bike came down to a V7 II or a Zero. As attractive as I find the Zero, here's why I chose the former:

1. Zero has concentrated on the sport/dual sport market and I ultimately decided that I wanted a more rounded bike that can easily take a rear rack/panniers, etc.
2. The Zero dealer network is weak and there are questions about the training of its dealers to handle diagnosis and correction of electric motorcycle problems.
3. I believe that these bikes will lose their value rapidly given the fairly impressive rate of improvement in the technology.

I would suggest that anyone considering Zero check out http://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com, especially the dedicated Zero sub-forum.  You'll get a good sense of the pros and cons, including service issues. Zero is definitely trying, but the company is thin on the ground.

Had it not been for these issues, I think that I would have purchased a Zero.

P.S. Re the price, if you look at the Zero web site, they talk about a 10% Federal tax credit in the U.S. on purchasing a 2015 or 2016 bike, and a 30% tax credit on purchasing their chargers.

PPS: Zero has developed a police version (and I think has sold some), which means that they are able to produce a more laid-back version of the bike - they just haven't offered it to the public yet. The focus on sport/dual sport does make sense, given that the bikes don't have gears and torque is immediate. This two year old YouTube video, since which Zero has made significant improvements to its bikes, is fairly amusing, and goes some way to explaining why young people might find Zero bikes attractive (and look at the demographic their advertising targets): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke-3UuQycJM

[canuguzzi]

I submit that we are not the "broader market".  Most people in The USA do not own a garage full of motorcycles and keep two or three cars in the driveway. 

By "the broader market", I mean the average person who owns one vehicle and uses it for everything.  Daily commuting, grocery-getting, and for travel.  For those people, electric will only be a curiosity until it's performance and economy can meet or exceed the Honda Accord, etc., that is their main mode of transport.

Seems quite a few people own more than one vehicle and most often those vehicles are of different types. The commute car isn't the one they use for family outings or trips.

The family that has a pickup probably also has a very different vehicle as well and they use it for most errands and the daily back and forth to work.

I do see this as regional. Get close to a major metro area and you'll see a lot of electric cars on the road. Some of the new electric cars look just like other cars, not the orthopedic shoe looking things of the past years. Nowadays an electric car can pull up alongside you at t a stoplight and unless you see the badging you wouldn't know it from most of the other economy cars.

If your usual daily travel distances are long you won't see electrics but lots of people live near cities and in urban areas within the range of current electric vehicles.

Is an electric motorcycle the one bike for all uses thing? Hardly but then what bike really is? You could ride a V7 across the country but there are better choices. The Norge can get me to the store a few miles away but if there is something that could be a jump on ride over that was smaller and lighter, you bet.

I see electric vehicles as add-on vehicles. They can take care of a lot of use cases and for other needs you can use the truck, the SUV or the larger sedan. If the daily commutes are within the range of an electric, using a gas powered car really doesn't provide a benefit over the electric.

The cost? Enough people are paying upwards of $40,000 for pickups that get driven less than the commute cars they have, some bucks for an electric car isn't really going to be the sticking point. Tesla is selling all it can make, easily a $100k for one of them.

[Adan]

Lots of people could make good use of an electric motorcycle, but first they would have to come around to the idea of riding a motorcycle, period.  This is where I think ebikes have a potential for a big breakthrough, because they are much easier (no shifting) and less intimidating than a gas bike, it's much easier for the average person to start riding one.  The Empulse, with gearbox and chain, is more of a motorcyclists' ebike.  The Zero, with one gear and a belt, has more potential to be the first motorcycle for the person who maybe never seriously considered owning one. 

California with its mild climate and relatively liberal politics (subsidies) is the perfect breeding ground.  The Zero has enough range for most LA or Bay Area commutes.  Just think of how much better the LA freeways would be if 10% of folks driving cars alone would get on an ebike.  And if you want to talk cost-effectiveness, what would those people pay to have an hour more of their day because they can lane split?  Of course, you can lane split on any bike, but that gets back to my point of the ebike drawing in new riders who aren't ready for a gas bike.

[canuguzzi]

My decision a couple of months ago to purchase a new bike came down to a V7 II or a Zero. As attractive as I find the Zero, here's why I chose the former:

1. Zero has concentrated on the sport/dual sport market and I ultimately decided that I wanted a more rounded bike that can easily take a rear rack/panniers, etc.
2. The Zero dealer network is weak and there are questions about the training of its dealers to handle diagnosis and correction of electric motorcycle problems.
3. I believe that these bikes will lose their value rapidly given the fairly impressive rate of improvement in the technology.

I would suggest that anyone considering Zero check out http://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com, especially the dedicated Zero sub-forum.  You'll get a good sense of the pros and cons, including service issues. Zero is definitely trying, but the company is thin on the ground.

Had it not been for these issues, I think that I would have purchased a Zero.

P.S. Re the price, if you look at the Zero web site, they talk about a 10% Federal tax credit in the U.S. on purchasing a 2015 or 2016 bike, and a 30% tax credit on purchasing their chargers.

PPS: Zero has developed a police version (and I think has sold some), which means that they are able to produce a more laid-back version of the bike - they just haven't offered it to the public yet. The focus on sport/dual sport does make sense, given that the bikes don't have gears and torque is immediate. This two year old YouTube video, since which Zero has made significant improvements to its bikes, is fairly amusing, and goes some way to explaining why young people might find Zero bikes attractive (and look at the demographic their advertising targets): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke-3UuQycJM

What were your impressions of riding it? Which model(s) did you try?

They do have panniers and top cases for the new models (2016) Those 2016 models look like other standard naked bikes.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7

[Gliderjohn]

Around where I live 20-80 miles round trip commutes are very common which would seem perfect for an e-bike. Seriously, there is a stiff up front cost currently but almost no energy cost to you and think of all the money saved over say five years on no oil changes, other fluid changes, no valves to set, no starter motor. I think it might just pay off and in the not to distant future I am sure that it will. Gas is not going to stay around $2 a gallon forever. If the middle east continue to hiccup it might be going up a lot shortly.
GliderJohn

[cruzziguzzi]

For a dedicated commuter - were the basic bike and its cells costs to offset proposed fuel and buy-in for a similarly performing and presenting bike - I guess I get it. 

It's probably still gonna be a novelty if one were to realistically consider a true commuter, internal combustion engined, conventional motorcycle. How cheap does the Zero need to sell at before it effectively competes with a 70+MPG commuter? The difference in buy-in cost and extra/replacement cells buys a lot of gas for a commuter bike.

As far as sporting around on it - their own projections show dramatically diminished range with spirited riding.

Still - I look forward to these being a practical consideration for folks like me. I'm in no way opposed to the concept and quite the opposite, would like one were it financially and functionally practical.


Todd.

[Adan]

I think it's the obligation of folks like me, who have been doing the ebike commuting thing for awhile, to get on our soapbox and proclaim that it's a really f-ing great feeling to float in to work on a magic carpet ride every day.  This is a factor that does not show up on paper.  It's psychological and intangible, and it's something you realize only by doing it for awhile.  So even if commuting on an ebike costs somewhat more, to me it's still worth it.

But actually it doesn't cost more.  Not for me.  But that's going to vary for everybody.

None of above has made the gas bike occupy a place any less close to my heart.  My gas bike and my ebike sit side by side in my garage.  Both have two wheels, a motor, brakes, etc. . . and yet they could hardly be more different in terms of what they mean to me.

[rob-mg]

What were your impressions of riding it? Which model(s) did you try?

They do have panniers and top cases for the new models (2016) Those 2016 models look like other standard naked bikes.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7

I tried an FX. It was a blast.

If one actually prices out an FX against something like a V7 II, it kind of blows a hole in the argument that Zeros are too expensive. My bigger concerns were depreciation and support. If I lived in California, the latter might not have been an issue. Re top boxes and panniers, it can be done, but I think it's a bit like trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

[Perazzimx14]

For me to even remotely consider a E-bike:

1. Recharging stations are as plentiful as gas stations.
2. I can recharge the battery in the same amount of time it takes to pump 5 gallons of fuel.
3. I have a 250 mile range.

Even then I don't think I'd really like an E-bike. In all fairness there is not one modern internal combustion engine powered motorcycle than even tickles my fancy.

[Triple Jim]

For me to even remotely consider a E-bike:

1. Recharging stations are as plentiful as gas stations.
2. I can recharge the battery in the same amount of time it takes to pump 5 gallons of fuel.
3. I have a 250 mile range.

I'd love to have one that met those requirements, but I could ease up on the charging stuff.  For commuting to work, you could presumably plug in to charge when you got there, and have most of a day to charge back up, even if you made a short trip to lunch.  I used to have 12 to 25 mile each-way commutes, and the current Zero would have worked great.  I'd think it could handle even 50 mile each-way commutes fine in its present form.

[rbm]

Electric motorcycles have less and less distance per charge as the battery wears out.  The achievable trip per full charge degrades over time until it reaches a point where the battery must be replaced to achieve a pragmatic distance again.  It's like what I see on my laptop battery.  I get long use between charges with a new battery but within a year or two, the length of time nearly halves, until the battery is used up.

On the other hand, fuel powered motorcycles (not just gas but alternatives such as ethanol, methanol, propane) don't present a degrading use scheme.  They get roughly the same distance per fill-up, whether the bike is new or well used (assuming it's maintained).  The potential of the fuel source is a constant throughout the life of the motorcycle, unlike the electric which has a fuel source with diminishing potential throughout the life of the motorcycle.

The battery technology has yet to improve to maintain longevity on par with a liquid fuel based vehicle.

[canuguzzi]

Here: http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/sr.php

Panniers and top box made by Givi. Seems it would work and look like most other bikes these days.

Maintenance on the Zero is probably close to zero.

Prices for used Guzzis of recent manufacture aren't very good. I'm lucky, within 50-100 miles there are 2 dealers, both with good Guzzi techs and service. From reading this forum, dealership support isn't a strong point for MG bikes though.

I agree 100% as a Zero not being an only bike if that is what have to go with, I wouldn't either, the limits are too much to be an all around bike. As a commuter or second bike for around town and errands though, the cost of running it + maintenance and service for a 70 mpg commuter bike is around $1200 a year, in three years, that is half the price of the bike and easily equal to what the Zero costs.

1470 miles per month for a 35 mile one way commute
oil/filter change every quarter  (about 30 on the cheap side))
Service semi annually (200-400 yearly)
fuel costs - 252 gallons per year @ $756 (out here, $3 a gallon and that is going up)

Other than a component failure which would be covered by the 5 year 100k mile warranty, the Zero would need only electric and lots of parking garages have charging stations. Anything else the Zero would need, so would any other bike so it's a wash there.