Author Topic: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled  (Read 14978 times)

Offline waxi

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We were working on this issue with Beetle and Pete before without notable success. Since this may be more widespread problem I've decided to ask entire community for help on finding cause and solutions. How many of you recognize this issue (besides myself and Gunnar)?

To briefly describe the situation: When you drive downhill from a steep hill in first gear and low RPM's (near idle, no throttle) engine switches to "hard braking mode". After that, if you pull the clutch engine stalls. Sometimes it may even recover, but this depends on slope (how much engine needed to brake).

Please find two videos of the issue below. I have recorded them with my right hand - no touch to the throttle.

https://youtu.be/oAdCIQNtHxI
https://youtu.be/Kt8iYN7L5zs

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Offline sign216

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2017, 02:01:09 PM »
What ideas have been explored before by Pete and Beetle?  They are good w things, so I'm curious.

My initial idea is that with the engine braking going downhill, gravity is helping the engine run.  When you pull in the clutch, suddenly the engine has to run on it's own.  Perhaps the rpms are too high for the fuel delivered at idle (because engine braking artifically upped the rpm over normal idle).

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Offline redhawk47

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2017, 02:06:32 PM »
A couple of things to check, based on similar, but different problems, on other bikes.

Fuel supply: Check fuel pump output pressure and volume. Check voltage to fuel pump at idle. Check fuel filter for leaks/cracks. If it is part plastic replace it with an all metal filter. Look for hose leaks and cracks.

Injectors: Make sure that the connector from the ECU is fully seated on the injector. I had one that was not fully seated and it gave intermittent problems. Run some fuel injector thru the system, perhaps even a double dose. The injectors may be partially clogged and not letting enough fuel through at idle.

Keep us posted
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Offline GRGuzzi

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2017, 02:42:06 PM »
Hi guys, I have a V7ii 2015 Europe with the factory exhaust
Recently I uploaded the  Beetle map and I’m very happy with my bike, I should say extremely happy (thank you Mark).
Never had the situation waxi describes (downhill stalling), on my next ride I will try to do a test exactly like the waxi’s video and I will inform you.
But if I see correct in the video, at the time you pull the clutch the rpm is bellow idle, or your idle is to low, I cannot read your rpm indicator clearly.

Wildguzzi.com

Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2017, 02:42:06 PM »

Offline JProdun

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2017, 02:47:14 PM »
Not sure if I can compare it, but my car has had a similar (if not exact) problem due to a leak in one of the vacuum hoses.

Apologies if i'm not helping with this.


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Offline Vagrant

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2017, 02:51:32 PM »
is yours a 5 speed like we got here in 2015 or is it one of the first 6 speeds. I know they intro differently in some markets.
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Offline GRGuzzi

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2017, 02:58:10 PM »
To Vagrant
If you ask me,is 2015 Europe V7ii six speed

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2017, 03:08:46 PM »
Clutch pulled in causing the engine to die? Check your crank end play.

If that was all well before mapping then adjust the idle mixture number 5 one way, try it. Then 5 the opposite way from where you started and see how that is. This is most likely helpfull, to trim the idle after the O2 is shut off.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 03:28:52 PM by guzzisteve »
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Offline Vagrant

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2017, 04:04:58 PM »
To Vagrant
If you ask me,is 2015 Europe V7ii six speed
so it has a 6 speed transmission?
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beetle

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2017, 04:16:12 PM »
Steve, there's no trim adjustment on the MIU G3. Waxi had this issue before he remapped it, and I have not been able to fix it. I'm completely stumped. It doesn't do it when rolling on level ground either, only downhill. I could not reproduce it on Pete's Racer.

pete roper

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2017, 04:31:25 PM »
I too am baffled and unfortunately, with the bike half a world away, there isn't a lot either I or Mark can do, much though we'd love to.

We were discussing this very issue when he was in Canberra last week for work. The only things I could think of were that the engine is going to be pumping harder on the over-run in downhill situations and perhaps the crummy stepper motor in the MUIG has a conniption when the clutch is whipped in as you come to a standstill but there again if that were the case you'd expect then all to do it. Not just one or two. The only other thing my peanut brain could come up with was that maybe it's an actual physical issue of some sort with the MUIG3 unit? They're coming up on the Bay of Fleas nowadays, as long as they are all interchangeable, (And I don't know whether they are?) it might be worth picking up another one, swapping it out and reprogramming it to see if the issue goes away.

Sorry. Not much help. :sad:

Pete

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2017, 05:09:48 PM »
Well, how about cleaning out stepper, tried that yet?
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Offline GRGuzzi

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2017, 05:29:17 PM »
I will just express my thought  as electronics guy.

Bypass the clutch switch, bypass the side stand switch, bypass the heel sensor, then test it.

Working many years in marine electronics, the various sensors are producing a lot of problems.
In my opinion heel sensor is the most possible cause.   

Offline Clancy

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2017, 05:47:16 PM »
Mark asked me about this during the last year but I was never able to make it happen.
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Offline rodekyll

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2017, 01:38:25 AM »
I'm interested in the engine vacuum during the sequence.

Offline waxi

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2017, 01:45:13 AM »
What ideas have been explored before by Pete and Beetle?  They are good w things, so I'm curious.

Well, we have ruled out idle stepper because on level ground it runs ok. We have also tried to lift idle a bit - no success.

Fuel supply: Check fuel pump output pressure and volume. Check voltage to fuel pump at idle. Check fuel filter for leaks/cracks. If it is part plastic replace it with an all metal filter. Look for hose leaks and cracks.

Injectors: Make sure that the connector from the ECU is fully seated on the injector. I had one that was not fully seated and it gave intermittent problems. Run some fuel injector thru the system, perhaps even a double dose. The injectors may be partially clogged and not letting enough fuel through at idle.

Please note that otherwise bike runs perfect. Problem is only in situations like on the video.

so it has a 6 speed transmission?

Every V7 II has 6-speed.

Well, how about cleaning out stepper, tried that yet?

No I didn't and if I'm honest I really don't know how to. But this leads me to the same conclusion... why it runs ok on leven ground? I am running latest Beetle map and except of this problem bike runs perfect. It is very annoying, because we have quite some hills around.

Bypass the clutch switch, bypass the side stand switch, bypass the heel sensor, then test it. In my opinion heel sensor is the most possible cause.   

What is heel sensor? Do you mean tip-over sensor? It doesn't have one.

Mark asked me about this during the last year but I was never able to make it happen.

 :thumb: Gunnar has the same issue and I think also someone else here on WG.
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Offline Arizona Wayne

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2017, 01:51:47 AM »
Since you're not going very fast anyway, have you popped the tranny into neutral as you coast downhill to see what happens then?  If you did that you could try to rev the motor too and see what happens while your coasting.  Maybe your idle setting is too low.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 01:55:08 AM by Arizona Wayne »

beetle

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2017, 03:11:23 AM »
We've already tried increasing the idle without success.

Offline steamdriven NZ

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2017, 04:04:44 AM »
Is there enough fuel in the tank? I don't know where the pump is located on this model but I have seen my nephews Subaru burn out a fuel pump because he ran it a bit low then parked up on a road with a lot of camber. Pump uncovered, no start, burnt out pump. Could the pump be uncovered during this maneuver. Because with the throttle shut but rpm up a bit it will be scheduling zero fuel.
 
Just asking the simple questions, not trying to be smart.

Is there any Idle Air Control system on these bikes? One of our cars has had this problem which was traced to the command and control of the IAC valve. There was a switch in the clutch pedal would you believe that when pushed in, would command the IAC and the EFI to put in some fuel and air pronto.
Kev.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 04:05:58 AM by steamdriven NZ »
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Offline MotoBug

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2017, 04:24:59 AM »
My V7II Special is stock standard so I'll try the same test and report back in a day or two.

Offline Gunnar

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2017, 09:04:40 AM »
It happens with every map I've tried so far. Original map, new updated map from Guzzi last year, loads of maps from Beetle, original exhaust and airfilter, K&N airfilter and original exhaust, K&N and megaphone exhaust. As the engine tends to race as well as stall at times, Beetle suggested last year that it gets too much fuel and then drowns, this does make sense to me as well. Sometimes it will also be slow at starting up after a stall or actually race up a bit right after restart. I manage with the workaround of no engine braking in first gear down a steep hill by just keeping the clutch pulled or I put the bike in neutral and use the excellent brakes that the bike comes with. Or I just put it in second gear and go faster :wink:

I asked the dealer about the issue last year, they told me it was the mapping and could not help me as I didn't have the orignial pipes on the bike, I think they were wrong and I don't use them anymore. The bike is now out of warranty anyway.
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Offline Groover

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2017, 09:29:41 AM »
Maybe try some colder plugs.
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Offline redhawk47

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2017, 09:40:41 AM »

Quote from: redhawk47 on July 04, 2017, 01:06:32 PM

Fuel supply: Check fuel pump output pressure and volume. Check voltage to fuel pump at idle. Check fuel filter for leaks/cracks. If it is part plastic replace it with an all metal filter. Look for hose leaks and cracks.

Injectors: Make sure that the connector from the ECU is fully seated on the injector. I had one that was not fully seated and it gave intermittent problems. Run some fuel injector thru the system, perhaps even a double dose. The injectors may be partially clogged and not letting enough fuel through at idle.

--------
Please note that otherwise bike runs perfect. Problem is only in situations like on the video.
--------
I had a stalling problem on my BMW F800GS that was similar to yours. It ran fine otherwise. The dealer tried a lot of fixes. None worked until they changed the fuel pump.
Dan
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Offline TimmyTheHog

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2017, 10:44:03 AM »
Quote from: redhawk47 on July 04, 2017, 01:06:32 PM

Fuel supply: Check fuel pump output pressure and volume. Check voltage to fuel pump at idle. Check fuel filter for leaks/cracks. If it is part plastic replace it with an all metal filter. Look for hose leaks and cracks.

Injectors: Make sure that the connector from the ECU is fully seated on the injector. I had one that was not fully seated and it gave intermittent problems. Run some fuel injector thru the system, perhaps even a double dose. The injectors may be partially clogged and not letting enough fuel through at idle.

--------
Please note that otherwise bike runs perfect. Problem is only in situations like on the video.
--------
I had a stalling problem on my BMW F800GS that was similar to yours. It ran fine otherwise. The dealer tried a lot of fixes. None worked until they changed the fuel pump.

ya, I am in the same boat thinking pointing @ the fuel pump/assembly not working properly...

if the map isn't the problem and we got proper compression within the engine, beside sensors malfunctioning, fuel supply is usually the culprit...

Didn't happen to my bike but had a similar issue at my old Honda Civic....and you can't get anymore simple than the old 89~92 Honda civic...
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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2017, 11:09:19 AM »
If the engine dies when the clutch is pulled it could be an indication of a thrust bearing problem. if the thrust bearings are not doing their job, the crank gets pushed forward making the engine die.
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Offline waxi

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2017, 11:25:48 AM »
If the engine dies when the clutch is pulled it could be an indication of a thrust bearing problem. if the thrust bearings are not doing their job, the crank gets pushed forward making the engine die.

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Offline Vagrant

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2017, 07:10:06 PM »
If the engine dies when the clutch is pulled it could be an indication of a thrust bearing problem. if the thrust bearings are not doing their job, the crank gets pushed forward making the engine die.

That's what I was getting at. if that crank is loose enough in there it could slide forward enough to bind.
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pete roper

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2017, 07:23:34 PM »
That's what I was getting at. if that crank is loose enough in there it could slide forward enough to bind.

Yes, but if that was the problem he'd be loosing his clutch at a rapid rate and would be adjusting it every few days at most. Also the problem would manifest itself at all times, not just on downhill stops.

I'm still leaning towards an actual *Physical* problem with the MUIG3 although what exactly I have absolutely no idea.

Pete

beetle

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2017, 07:41:36 PM »
I still like my idea of a throttle/butterfly issue with the MIU G3. Some free play in the linkage causing the butterfly to close enough to stall when coasting downhill. Yes, I'm crazier than a coconut.


 :violent1:


pete roper

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2017, 07:59:50 PM »
Thats the sort of thing I was thinking when I said 'Physical' issue. The shitty plastic cam wheel is a known issue. Perhaps the butterfly spindle bushes are made of similar crappy materials? The extra vacuum when running downhill on the over-run might be pulling the butterfly to one side, or more open, or more closed? Who knows? Its obviously a rare occurrence but that doesn't make it any less annoying for those who are suffering from it.

Pete

 

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