Author Topic: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled  (Read 14977 times)

beetle

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2017, 08:05:55 PM »
Well, the MIU G3 is a low cost unit.

To confirm you would need to pull either the air box or throttle body (whichever is easier I suppose) off to see if the butterfly was a little loose on the linkage.



Offline MotoBug

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2017, 11:33:00 PM »
My V7II Special is stock standard so I'll try the same test and report back in a day or two.
In case it's useful I tested my bike to see if it does it. First time the bike was relatively cold after about 5 minutes running time. No issues.

Hearing your bike cool down in the video I thought I'd try it hot. It actually faltered for a couple of seconds the first time but subsequent tries I couldn't replicate it.

Offline waxi

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2017, 02:44:26 AM »
Well, the MIU G3 is a low cost unit.

To confirm you would need to pull either the air box or throttle body (whichever is easier I suppose) off to see if the butterfly was a little loose on the linkage.

Ok, if I check this, is there something I can do? Isn't ECU unserviceable?

Actually... are there any upgrades available for MIUG3?
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Offline Gunnar

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2017, 02:45:25 AM »
I still like my idea of a throttle/butterfly issue with the MIU G3. Some free play in the linkage causing the butterfly to close enough to stall when coasting downhill. Yes, I'm crazier than a coconut.


 :violent1:

Would this explain the overfuelling?
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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2017, 02:45:25 AM »

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2017, 03:11:32 AM »
Smarter heads than me have been over this but I'd like to know... You indicate that the bike stalls when going downhill when you pull the clutch. Pete's take on it as a "physical" thing makes me think if you apply this test. When pointing downhill there is a deceleration on the bike and it is also pitched nose down if you will. One of these is causing you some grief, to eliminate the pitching issue and only exposing the bike to deceleration, try taking her up to a decent speed with no one behind you and pull the clutch in at say 100 kph, and brake HARD with the throttle closed fully. If the problem goes way you'll know it's a nose down pitch issue and not a deceleration issue. If not, then work on the opposite assumption. I'll ring Roper now and chat.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 03:34:02 AM by Huzo »

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2017, 03:33:12 AM »
Two more tests I'd like an answer to. As you're rolling down the dreaded hill, instead of pulling in the clutch, pop it into neutral and eliminate the possibility of it being a micro switch on the clutch cut out, or piss the switch off as another bloke said earlier. Here's the crunch though, start your bike with the rear wheel on a scissor lift and while running, raise the wheel a couple of feet upwards. I'd like to know if the engine cuts out as a result of pitching forward without a deceleration. Trouble is you have more than one unknown in the same equation, you have to devise a test to check each possibility in isolation. For heaven's sake though, don't starve the poor bastard of oil with it's ass in the air...

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2017, 03:37:26 AM »
I will just express my thought  as electronics guy.

Bypass the clutch switch, bypass the side stand switch, bypass the heel sensor, then test it.

Working many years in marine electronics, the various sensors are producing a lot of problems.
In my opinion heel sensor is the most possible cause.   
I like that approach..Only trouble is, if it was the heel sensor, it would cut out irrespective of the clutch status, unless you're suggesting that the engine HAS cut out but is milling over "dead" and stops when the drive is disconnected ?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 03:42:27 AM by Huzo »

beetle

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2017, 05:05:55 AM »
Ok, if I check this, is there something I can do? Isn't ECU unserviceable?


The TPS and MAP sensor are built in and are not serviceable. The mechanics? I don't know whether you may be able to adjust or repair it. I've not had one in my hands to know.


Quote
Actually... are there any upgrades available for MIUG3?


No.




beetle

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2017, 05:06:51 AM »
Would this explain the overfuelling?


No.

pete roper

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2017, 05:24:40 AM »
Mark, I'll stump up for that MUIG in Italy if you think it might help. The Rexxer thing for the 1400's is out of reach until I sell the V7 but I can probably scrape up the cash for a MUIG3 for us to rip to pieces.

Pete

beetle

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2017, 06:51:34 AM »
Don't worry about it. I just bought one.

Offline Gunnar

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2017, 06:52:01 AM »
Two more tests I'd like an answer to. As you're rolling down the dreaded hill, instead of pulling in the clutch, pop it into neutral and eliminate the possibility of it being a micro switch on the clutch cut out, or piss the switch off as another bloke said earlier. Here's the crunch though, start your bike with the rear wheel on a scissor lift and while running, raise the wheel a couple of feet upwards. I'd like to know if the engine cuts out as a result of pitching forward without a deceleration. Trouble is you have more than one unknown in the same equation, you have to devise a test to check each possibility in isolation. For heaven's sake though, don't starve the poor bastard of oil with it's ass in the air...

The problem does not seem to be caused by the physical down hill movement, but the heavy engine braking in 1st gear while travelling down a steep hill.
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pete roper

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2017, 06:59:52 AM »
The problem does not seem to be caused by the physical down hill movement, but the heavy engine braking in 1st gear while travelling down a steep hill.

Yup. Which points to an air problem that the flutterby and stepper can't cope with for whatever reason.

Mark, let me know when it arrives, I'd love to be there when you pull it apart. If only to see how shitty it is. :D

Pete

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2017, 08:15:07 AM »
How about pulling the plugs directly after the engine stops to look for lean/rich? 

I.e. roll downhill, pull clutch, and when the engine dies, then coast to roadside and take out the plugs.

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Offline waxi

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2017, 09:22:44 AM »
Huzo, thanks for ideas, but its a no-go. Every now and then I test my skills (and ABS) like that. It would already stall in one of the tests. It doesn't matter... you can do whatever you want with the bike when it is in neutral or with clutch pulled - it won't die.

Here is another idea (Beetle?): Can engine parameters somehow be logged with GuzziDiag? I can filp my laptop into backpack and go for a ride...
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Offline malik

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2017, 03:28:53 PM »
With a computer in his backpack, he's not just riding, he's WORKING!
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beetle

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2017, 04:20:54 PM »
Here is another idea (Beetle?): Can engine parameters somehow be logged with GuzziDiag? I can filp my laptop into backpack and go for a ride...


They sure can. In the GuzziDiag preferences, the last tab has a checkbox to log data as a .csv file.

Offline waxi

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2017, 01:37:17 PM »
Ok, I went for a ride with GuzziDiag connected in my backpack. I've tried to select eight parameters which should be related with the issue (you tell me if I've forgot any).

In the picture below you can see the same scenario as in video in first post. From stop to very "hard engine braking" without clutch pulled. Nothing really useful. In green is my iteration with the throttle. If I would pulled it, it would definitely died.



In the second picture, you can see again throttle closed with my iterations in green. Is it interesting that at the end when I was twisting the throttle, injections still remained very short (row 496)? After that I pulled the clutch and engine died.



Something useful or waste of time?

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oldbike54

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2017, 02:36:35 PM »
 W/O sounding snarky , why are you slowing down to a point where the engine is only turning 1,000 RPM's with the bike in gear and the clutch out ?

 Dusty

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2017, 02:43:41 PM »
W/O sounding snarky , why are you slowing down to a point where the engine is only turning 1,000 RPM's with the bike in gear and the clutch out ?

 Dusty
Maybe you shouldn't do it Dusty, but the fact is you SHOULD be able to. It indicates a problem.

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2017, 02:56:37 PM »
 Just Curious Waxi, at the end of the run ,at the point the engine dies, without changing anything, will the engine start right back up when you push the starter button?
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oldbike54

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2017, 02:57:12 PM »
Maybe you shouldn't do it Dusty, but the fact is you SHOULD be able to. It indicates a problem.

 Well , does it in fact indicate a problem ? Maybe the computer is simply shutting of the Fuel or spark because the engine speed is too low .

 Dusty

Offline pat80flh

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2017, 03:13:50 PM »
So, in frames 492 to 497, you say you are twisting the throttle?

"Throttle" equals throttle position?

Those numbers look up and down, if you are twisting the throttle, I would think there should be a smooth, linear increase.

Forgive my ignorance this is cable operated throttle, right?
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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2017, 03:27:41 PM »
Is the "speed" the actual speed of the bike?
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beetle

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2017, 04:51:50 PM »
Do it again please. Remove 'engine temperature', 'air temperature', 'speed' and 'throttle equiv. stepper'. Add 'advance left' and 'advance right', 'intake pressure' and 'status idle control'.

Offline waxi

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2017, 04:53:37 PM »
W/O sounding snarky , why are you slowing down to a point where the engine is only turning 1,000 RPM's with the bike in gear and the clutch out ?
That IS the problem. ECU (or whatever causes this) shouldn't let it run so slow i.e. brake so hard.

Just Curious Waxi, at the end of the run ,at the point the engine dies, without changing anything, will the engine start right back up when you push the starter button?
Yes it will. Without a problem.

So, in frames 492 to 497, you say you are twisting the throttle?

"Throttle" equals throttle position?

Those numbers look up and down, if you are twisting the throttle, I would think there should be a smooth, linear increase.

Forgive my ignorance this is cable operated throttle, right?
Yes, throttle equals throttle position. 1.00-1.20 = throttle closed. Numbers are right... you normally twist throttle back and forth. Don't know a Guzzi with RBW.

Is the "speed" the actual speed of the bike?
Correct. First gear, about idle RPM's.
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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2017, 05:04:07 PM »
Well , does it in fact indicate a problem ? Maybe the computer is simply shutting of the Fuel or spark because the engine speed is too low .

 Dusty
I'm lead to believe that they don't all do it Dusty. I couldn't just live with it, have to get it sorted.

Offline waxi

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2017, 02:47:09 AM »
Here it goes Mark.



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What are advance left and right? They are going crazy.

Entire table: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3cymqgfi0ev99nk/AACPXDu423aFWEZksGCrbXvAa?dl=0
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Offline waxi

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2017, 03:08:05 AM »
Sometimes it will also be slow at starting up after a stall or actually race up a bit right after restart.

I've been observant on this one... It does actually do as you said!
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beetle

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Re: V7 II - Downhill stalling issue - engine dies when clutch pulled
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2017, 05:43:21 AM »
Well, it doesn't tell me much, other than everything is working right up until it stalls. The advance left and right (ignition spark advance) values are interesting. Those 4 digit values are bogus. Anything less than 8 is bogus too, I reckon. I don't know why that's happening, but it may be telling.

Can you send me the entire log?

 

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