1998EV rides like crap

[Strom]

The H pipe also cracked, but it is a home made 1mm stainless item. Made a new one out of 1.5mm and will see what happens.
Found the pic of the first break. Did not notice any real difference while riding. Same crap even after we fixed it.

[oldbike54]

Am I the only one who thinks two broken frame rails is a red flag?

 No .

 As for how fast the OP is , well , I'm sorta having a hard time with this . 60 MPH over speed bumps on a '98 Cal , hmm ...

 Look , I'm not the fastest guy , but some of this sounds hyperbolic .

 Dusty

[Strom]

No .

 As for how fast the OP is , well , I'm sorta having a hard time with this . 60 MPH over speed bumps on a '98 Cal , hmm ...

 Look , I'm not the fastest guy , but some of this sounds hyperbolic .

 Dusty

Depends on how fast you like to hump... bump.. whatever... :D These are not all that bad, speed limit is 20mph there. Just stand on the pegs and it sails across.

[rodekyll]

Brembo calipers are set up with shims between the caliper mount lugs and fork lugs.  When you mount them you need to be sure the proper shims are in place, so the caliper is centered on the rotor.

My first thought on the frame rail is that it's being stressed abnormally.  Either the frame is tweaked or the installation is incorrect.  Is this model supposed to have that u-shaped strut underneath the transmission that connects the lower rails?  I can't find a good picture.  It was added because of flexing.  If yours was supposed to have it and doesn't that could be significant.

I'd be going over the rail installation to find where the bind/stress/misalignment is.  From your description of the break location I'd be suspicious of the length of the spacers and attendant stuff in the lower rear transmission mount/centerstand mount area.  I'd also double-check the fit at the swingarm end of the rails.

Exhaust cracks are often due to stresses induced during installation, although cases of bad welds have been documented.  I've been known to cut the crossover section and rejoin it using a few inches of flex pipe.  This helps relax installations that just don't want to line up neatly.

Your crossover crack might be associated with the frame rail cracks.  The two are in the same general area, and the same types of forces would break them.

[Strom]

Brembo calipers are set up with shims between the caliper mount lugs and fork lugs.  When you mount them you need to be sure the proper shims are in place, so the caliper is centered on the rotor.

There were none on the bike, the calipers appear to be centered on the rotor.

My first thought on the frame rail is that it's being stressed abnormally.  Either the frame is tweaked or the installation is incorrect.  Is this model supposed to have that u-shaped strut underneath the transmission that connects the lower rails?  I can't find a good picture.  It was added because of flexing.  If yours was supposed to have it and doesn't that could be significant.

Yep, there is that U shaped piece. It has some play in the mounting holes, so it was tightened after everything was in place. Then it was taken off, modified to accomodate the rear facing external oil filter and the H pipe (also modified to go above the filter and in front of the U piece).

I'd be going over the rail installation to find where the bind/stress/misalignment is.  From your description of the break location I'd be suspicious of the length of the spacers and attendant stuff in the lower rear transmission mount/centerstand mount area.  I'd also double-check the fit at the swingarm end of the rails.

As far as I know it was fine. The front was a bit tight if I recall correctly, but after a bit of wiggling, everything more or less fell into place.
What would be the best way to check the fit? Take the rails off and put them on again?

Exhaust cracks are often due to stresses induced during installation, although cases of bad welds have been documented.  I've been known to cut the crossover section and rejoin it using a few inches of flex pipe.  This helps relax installations that just don't want to line up neatly.

Your crossover crack might be associated with the frame rail cracks.  The two are in the same general area, and the same types of forces would break them.

Might be, but stainless also gets brittle with vibration/heat cycles. Guzzi engine does one, riding in the rain another. Welding was made by a gen-u-wine pro. He knows his stuff/materials/etc, it is his job to engineer this stuff. He also suggested a stress relief cut in the middle of the H pipe, if only to have a flex joint. But it is pretty well made and where it should be. I also cracked the stock H-potato a few times before going to the H-pipe. The bike still rode fine then.

It actually could be the frame is bent a bit. Any suggestions on checking it? I did the basic measurements across the frame with a tape measure and it seemed OK - which really means nothing without measuring the angles and dimensions against factory spec (have to check the manual if there is one).

I also have an option of getting a semi cafe T5, which could sratch my guzzi itch while I take apart the cali to sort this out. And I am very grateful for your input and ideas. :)

[Tom]

Sounds a frame alignment job.   

[Strom]

Now I forgot a bit... I cracked (also) the alu passenger footpeg/exhaust holder. Cannot reeber if it was left or right. I think it was the right one. Where the decorative hole begins at the front bottom.

[jrt]

check wheel alignment with a straightedge?  I've read that a long fluorescent bulb can be used...

[rodekyll]

I can't tell you how to accurately measure the frame without some precision tools.  The best advice I can give there is to look at the joints and gussets for cracked or broken paint.  Paint doesn't flex, but the steel does.  So if the steel has moved under the paint, a visual examination could reveal the damage.

But another reasonable possibility is that the rear transmission/kickstand mount stuff isn't right.  I'd get things out of the way enough to get a super good look at the underneath of the bike and the areas areound the lower rails.  Then I'd loosen everything up and see if the various spacers and such look to be properly installed and a reasonable length.  The rails should remain completely relaxed during the installation/tightening procedure.  If the lower rails deflect in any way, in any direction, you've got a stressed installation.  It can be something as silly as a washer added or missing incorrectly.

It's a lot of fun to hammer a bike over rough surfaces.  That's what dirt bikes are all about.  Your EV is not that sort of beast.  You can't slam 600# of street bike over potholes, curbs, and speed bumps without eventually beating it to pieces.  If you can come to terms with the fact that you're abusing it and that there will be consequences, ride on!  If you think that somehow YOUR EV is impervious to natural laws, you're in denial.  Any machine can only take so much.

[Strom]

check wheel alignment with a straightedge?  I've read that a long fluorescent bulb can be used...

Tnx, I have a few extra lamps. :)

Sry for the typos, idiot on a phone here. And a bottle of Teran. :P

[Strom]

Tnx mr Kill. :P

Will try what you wrote. I do not expect it to take the punishment without consequences, I expext I have to fix what I broke. Just did not expect it will take this long to find. :)

My friend squashed a quota frame by 10 cm. Took a trip around the world to do it, but from what I gather, it was fun.

Well, I have a few starting points, if you come up with anything else, let me know. :)

[yogidozer]

check wheel alignment with a straightedge?  I've read that a long fluorescent bulb can be used...

string works too

[LowRyter]

Brembo calipers are set up with shims between the caliper mount lugs and fork lugs.  When you mount them you need to be sure the proper shims are in place, so the caliper is centered on the rotor.

Is this why my EV always wears our the inside pads? 

The brakes stop well.  The rotors have some give in the buttons.  But the inside brakes wear.  I wonder if the previous owner lost the shims?  Where could I find shims?  Just use washers?

[rodekyll]

For caliper shims I use 10mm (3/8) washers of varying thickness.  Right now I've got some 0.030 shims centering one side and 0.20 for the other.  The material isn't important.  Their thickness is.  Mine are retired copper sealing rings from my drive hydraulics.  The tractor supply stores carry suitable mild steel shims in their PTO department.  I've used regular stainless washers in the past.

A note:  Centering seems to be necessary on "fixed" calipers with pistons on both sides.  If "fixed", this generally applies to radial as well as axial mounted designs.  The floating calipers with pistons on one side only, are designed to self-center as they grab.

When you center them, don't worry about where the pads are, because the pistons might no be retracting evenly.  Center the seam where the halves mate to the center of the rotor.

Lowryter -- your uneven wear could be centering, but could just as well be sticking or reluctant pistons on the inside bank.  It can help to unbolt the calipers, put a thin, flat something between the pads and then work the brakes.  See how the pistons perform.  Use the thin, flat something to push the pads back between look-sees.  I use a putty knife.  Often making the pistons extract more than normal cleans up the piston surface and relaxes the roll in the piston seals.  a few cycles of overextending and retracting them can free them up.

To the person who asked -- Some Brembo stuff is rebuildable and some is not.  Gold calipers are not.  Most of their "modern" master cylinders are not.  However, at last need, I was able to get P08 kits.  To get around this supply issue, we might be able to use generic pistons and their matching seals.  You can get the generic stuff by dimension, from various ebay sellers as well as some custom brake shops.  I'm planning to try generic substitutions next time I need to rebuild one of those 32/30s.

[Strom]

To the person who asked -- Some Brembo stuff is rebuildable and some is not.  Gold calipers are not.  Most of their "modern" master cylinders are not.  However, at last need, I was able to get P08 kits.  To get around this supply issue, we might be able to use generic pistons and their matching seals.  You can get the generic stuff by dimension, from various ebay sellers as well as some custom brake shops.  I'm planning to try generic substitutions next time I need to rebuild one of those 32/30s.

That is a bummer... I kind of liked these brakes... but I guess that is how it is with "modern" stuff.

Thanks for all the info! :)

[twowings]

How much time elapsed between the frame damage and the repair (s)?

Any additional stress placed on the damaged areas would be multiplied due to loss of integrity and could have led to deformation and mis-alignment in my book...

[chuck peterson]

Tire pressure. Just cuz no one else is suggesting it, so I'll try a WAG...

2.2 bar equals 32 psi. Try 38 psi, or 2.6 in the front.

2.4 bar equals 34 psi. Try 42 psi, or 2.9 bar in the rear.

Go ride for half an hour at your pace. Try to achieve a 10% rise from cold to warm tires. Less then 10% rise you've started with too much pressure. More than 10% means under inflated cold.

An EV guy at Marcus Dairy was ready to sell his till we pumped up his tires. Whole new bike.


But I'm also thinking of measuring the pins on the swingarm to see if they are equal out both sides of the frame

[Strom]

How much time elapsed between the frame damage and the repair (s)?

Any assitional stress placed on the damaged areas would be multiplied due to loss of integrity and could have led to deformation and mis-alignment in my book...

No idea... fixed as soon as noticed. How much time was between the break/crack and until I noticed... no idea. I wash the bike... sometimes... and check for stuff like that then.

[Zoom Zoom]

Forgive me if you did this. I gave up reading every post somewhere on the second page.

You have done lots of stuff. Did you replace the fork springs themselves?

John Henry

[Strom]

Forgive me if you did this. I gave up reading every post somewhere on the second page.

You have done lots of stuff. Did you replace the fork springs themselves?

John Henry

Not yet... also bushing thingies are on the list to replace.

[Tom]

Tire pressure. Just cuz no one else is suggesting it, so I'll try a WAG...

2.2 bar equals 32 psi. Try 38 psi, or 2.6 in the front.

2.4 bar equals 34 psi. Try 42 psi, or 2.9 bar in the rear.

Go ride for half an hour at your pace. Try to achieve a 10% rise from cold to warm tires. Less then 10% rise you've started with too much pressure. More than 10% means under inflated cold.

An EV guy at Marcus Dairy was ready to sell his till we pumped up his tires. Whole new bike.


But I'm also thinking of measuring the pins on the swingarm to see if they are equal out both sides of the frame

I did page 1 but good to remind him.

[Groover]

Steering head tightened to spec, loosened a bit (was too tight)

Are you sure this is still not too tight?

[Frenchfrog]

Brembo gold 4 pot rebuild kits available from these boys
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Moto-Guzzi-V11-Le-Mans-2001-2004-Brembo-front-brake-caliper-seal-repair-kit/181430373173?epid=1088520838&hash=item2a3e17cb35:g:Zf4AAOxymmJTkFJ6
They have an impressive range of brembo stuff not available elsewhere

[Chuck in Indiana]

Brembo gold 4 pot rebuild kits available from these boys
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Moto-Guzzi-V11-Le-Mans-2001-2004-Brembo-front-brake-caliper-seal-repair-kit/181430373173?epid=1088520838&hash=item2a3e17cb35:g:Zf4AAOxymmJTkFJ6
They have an impressive range of brembo stuff not available elsewhere

Yeah, there is a list on the V11 forum.. I'm glad I didn't throw away that rear caliper off of Rosie.

[rodekyll]

Brembo gold 4 pot rebuild kits available from these boys
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Moto-Guzzi-V11-Le-Mans-2001-2004-Brembo-front-brake-caliper-seal-repair-kit/181430373173?epid=1088520838&hash=item2a3e17cb35:g:Zf4AAOxymmJTkFJ6
They have an impressive range of brembo stuff not available elsewhere

 

[Tom H]

IIRC, I read this add on fleabay as a USA seller as well.

Tom

[Strom]

Are you sure this is still not too tight?

I did that mistake on the XS1100 once. It was quite noticable - bike did not want to go in a straight line. :)

As soon as I get a few hours free, I will check and inspect stuff, make some pics along the way... hopefully over the weekend.

[skippy]

Steering head tightened to spec, loosened a bit (was too tight), checked again later.
Swingarm aligned to the previous measurements, if there is a better way, let me know. I never checked the sidewalls, since they have no clue if it is going to me mounted on a light or heavy bike.

Front fork oil... 10w agip. Forks aligned on the yokes.

Over tight steering head ?!? For the love of gawd, there is literally no end play in a properly setup steering head. If it was too tight then they have certainly Brinnelled the races and need to be replaced.
Just my two cents. The list of changes you listed was huge and it is hard to tell from my arm chair where the handling went south.

Skippy 

[Huzo]

Spokes loose ?

[Strom]

Spokes loose ?

Will re-check, but the last time I checked they all pinged nicely with the same pitch when tapped.