Author Topic: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7  (Read 493 times)

Offline mr_pacman

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Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« on: May 28, 2022, 10:48:38 PM »
2014 V7 racer.

Today I noticed while riding that the green turn signal light started flashing faster than normal, then slower.  It happened a few times where it would run normally, then go fast.  THen, a few times, when I activated the turn signal, it didn't even come on at all.

Rode home this evening and everything seemed to be working which was nice.

Any thoughts on an intermittent issue like this?  Where do I start? Fuses, relays or could it be the switch mechanism on the handlebar?

I'm not great mechanically so sorry for the basic questions.

Thanks
James

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2022, 11:26:32 PM »
Here is the schematic,
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
It's possibly an intermittent short in one of the lamps, most likely wiring at the rear.
The V7 flashing is done by the dash (4), it doesn't have a flasher relay like the older bikes but the fast flashing is trying to alert you about a problem. I don't know if its trying to say I have a lamp out or I have a short, it would be easy to check the lamp out alarm by simply removing a bulb.
Actually if you notice it again pull over and see if the lamps are flashing front and back, what happens if you select the other direction, I assume that side will be ok.
-----------
Update
My V7III flashes fast if a lamp is disconnected or burnt out.
Check the lamp holders for corrosion.
Electrical connections at the rear.
I'm a big fan of Vaseline to prevent corrosion, wipe some over the lamp contacts, connector pins.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2022, 11:54:44 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline mr_pacman

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2022, 08:24:51 PM »
Here is the schematic,
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
It's possibly an intermittent short in one of the lamps, most likely wiring at the rear.
The V7 flashing is done by the dash (4), it doesn't have a flasher relay like the older bikes but the fast flashing is trying to alert you about a problem. I don't know if its trying to say I have a lamp out or I have a short, it would be easy to check the lamp out alarm by simply removing a bulb.
Actually if you notice it again pull over and see if the lamps are flashing front and back, what happens if you select the other direction, I assume that side will be ok.
-----------
Update
My V7III flashes fast if a lamp is disconnected or burnt out.
Check the lamp holders for corrosion.
Electrical connections at the rear.
I'm a big fan of Vaseline to prevent corrosion, wipe some over the lamp contacts, connector pins.

Thanks for the reply Roy.

Where in the rear are the electrical connections?  Are we talking about the fuse box under the seat?

Sorry if this is an obvious question but I'm already in over my head here.  :grin:

James

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2022, 09:15:10 PM »
I'm not sure where the connection is on your bike, if you look at the schematic it shows 4 connectors  just to the left of the tail/indicator lamps, I think you will find them very close to the tail light assembly.
Just take out each lamp in turn clean them up and wipe a small amount of vaseline on the lamp connections it will be good preventative maintenance if nothing else.
No, not in the fuse area, each of the 4 blinkers has a dedicated wire right from the dash.
Over the years I've talked many owners through electrical issues, rest assured you will soon be fixed.
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« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 09:39:58 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2022, 09:15:10 PM »

Online Bulldog9

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2022, 08:23:59 AM »
Could be as simple as a bulb starting to go bad, a loose connection, or some corrosion on the plug connectors. I'd take them out, clean up, put some Vaseline or dielectric grease and see how things change.
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Offline mr_pacman

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2022, 09:45:23 AM »
Ok, I'm still having the issue after putting vaseline on the bulb connectors for all 4 turn lights.

Last night I noticed the following observations:

- The green turn signal flashes intermittently or doesn't flash at all.  The bulbs don't work if the green light isn't flashing

- While this is hard to confirm, it seems like the problem happened more at higher RPM's but this could be a false positive. My observation was, if I put the signal on at idle it was working, as I sped up to over 5,000 rpm, it would start having issue. Shifting to 2nd gear caused them to work well and they would get wonky again at a higher rpm. However, this was negated later on when at idle they did act wonky for a few seconds but it does seem to happen more at higher rpm/speeds.

Any other thoughts on what I can look into next?

Offline LowRyter

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2022, 10:12:19 AM »
first step is to reseat the fuse, perhaps a little contact cleaner too.   Happens to both of my Guzzis. 
John L 
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2022, 11:36:56 PM »
Ok, I'm still having the issue after putting vaseline on the bulb connectors for all 4 turn lights.

Last night I noticed the following observations:

- The green turn signal flashes intermittently or doesn't flash at all.  The bulbs don't work if the green light isn't flashing

- While this is hard to confirm, it seems like the problem happened more at higher RPM's but this could be a false positive. My observation was, if I put the signal on at idle it was working, as I sped up to over 5,000 rpm, it would start having issue. Shifting to 2nd gear caused them to work well and they would get wonky again at a higher rpm. However, this was negated later on when at idle they did act wonky for a few seconds but it does seem to happen more at higher rpm/speeds.

Any other thoughts on what I can look into next?

Does it do this on the left and right side?
Have you seen a repeat of the fast flashing, was the front and rear both working.
Its possible there is a loose connection opening up at higher rev range/
Look at the schematic and find all the connectors it shows.
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Online normzone

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2022, 01:55:32 AM »
Could be as simple as a bulb starting to go bad, a loose connection, or some corrosion on the plug connectors. I'd take them out, clean up, put some Vaseline or dielectric grease and see how things change.

I had something similar happen with an old Nissan truck - I changed all the little running light bulbs and the problem went away.
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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2022, 10:15:10 AM »
Does it do this on the left and right side?
Have you seen a repeat of the fast flashing, was the front and rear both working.


Frank, answer Kiwi_Roy's questions to get more help.

Fast flashing is a feature, not a bug. It's to alert the rider that something is wrong. Typically (But not always.) it means a bad turn signal light bulb or wiring problem to a bulb.  So when you see fast flashing, usually one bulb is not working. 

Do you see that one turn signal bulb is not working when the green light flashes rapidly? If so, which one? Is it always the same one?
 

Have you in the past replaced any of the turn signal bulbs or turn signal assemblies?


You say that sometimes you see no flashing at all. And you mentioned that the issue comes and goes (sometimes) with changes in engine speed. It could be that the vibration of the engine is affecting an intermittent connection. One easy thing to try: While the key switch is "on" but engine is not running, turn on the left turn signals and try rapping on the instrument panel with your knuckles to see if that produces or stops the issue. Repeat with the right signals. 



Offline mr_pacman

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2022, 10:36:01 AM »
Does it do this on the left and right side?
Have you seen a repeat of the fast flashing, was the front and rear both working.
Its possible there is a loose connection opening up at higher rev range/
Look at the schematic and find all the connectors it shows.

I think I may have been mistaken about the fast flash.  I thought it was a fast flashing that was a built in warning indicator but I suspect the green light appeared to be flashing fast because it has a short. That's why it would fast flash for a few flashes and then shut off completely. Perhaps the connection was shorting out making it appear to fast flash as I haven't seen it happen again. Now it just blinks a few times and shuts off, then comes back on again.

Offline mr_pacman

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2022, 10:41:18 AM »
Frank, answer Kiwi_Roy's questions to get more help.

Fast flashing is a feature, not a bug. It's to alert the rider that something is wrong. Typically (But not always.) it means a bad turn signal light bulb or wiring problem to a bulb.  So when you see fast flashing, usually one bulb is not working. 

Do you see that one turn signal bulb is not working when the green light flashes rapidly? If so, which one? Is it always the same one?
 

Have you in the past replaced any of the turn signal bulbs or turn signal assemblies?


You say that sometimes you see no flashing at all. And you mentioned that the issue comes and goes (sometimes) with changes in engine speed. It could be that the vibration of the engine is affecting an intermittent connection. One easy thing to try: While the key switch is "on" but engine is not running, turn on the left turn signals and try rapping on the instrument panel with your knuckles to see if that produces or stops the issue. Repeat with the right signals.

It's never just one turn signal that goes out. Once the green light on the dashboard starts acting funny, all 4 turn signals don't work. It's never just one that isn't working.

I think the "fast flashing" that I first mentioned was incorrect as I don't think it was a "feature" where it was consistent. I think the fast flashing was happening because of the way this disruption in the connection is happening and it was flashing on and off (and eventually just off for longer periods of time) due to something not making the connection.

I haven't changed any of the turn signal bulbs or assemblies. My plan was to pick up 4 new bulbs today and give that a try. I've made sure the fuses are seated properly.

I did try putting on the turn signal and bouncing up and down on the seat and that didn't make a different. I'll try your suggestion and create some artificial vibration towards the front of the bike to see if I can get it to replicate there.

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2022, 10:52:49 AM »
Is it always on the right or left?
If its happening on both sides I would be suspicious of common wiring like a ground open at the front or rear
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
Sometimes what seems like a simple system can be the hardest to troubleshoot
« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 10:55:11 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline mr_pacman

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2022, 10:54:17 AM »
Is it always on the right or left?
If its happening on both sides I would be suspicious of common wiring like a ground open at the front or rear

It seems to happen on both sides. Once the issue starts happening, it doesn't matter if I flick the switch to the right or left signal , it won't work.

Is there a chance it could be the indicator switch on the handlebars?

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2022, 11:08:38 AM »
It seems to happen on both sides. Once the issue starts happening, it doesn't matter if I flick the switch to the right or left signal , it won't work.

Is there a chance it could be the indicator switch on the handlebars?
Yes, it could be the switch if for example its not grounded properly, that would be a common fault between left and right however I would be surprised if that made the Idiot light flash at a different rate.
I don't see that you have noticed a front or rear lamp out, both ends each go to a common ground point, if not grounded that would effectively disconnects the lamp.
It could also be the multi pin connector at the dash.
Does the bike spend much time out in the weather, that's where you often see corrosion problems at connectors.
Do the flashers ever start to work without the switch turned?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 11:12:21 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline mr_pacman

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2022, 11:13:25 AM »
Yes, it could be the switch if for example its not grounded properly, that would be a common fault between left and right however I would be surprised if that made the Idiot light flash at a different rate.
I don't see that you have noticed a front or rear lamp out, both ends each go to a common ground point
It could also be the multi pin connector at the dash.
Does the bike spend much time out in the weather, that's where you often see corrosion problems at connectors.
Do the flashers ever start to work without the switch turned?

I don't think the fast flashing that I was seeing was the "idiot light" as it was too inconsistent for it to be a built in feature.  It went fast, to normal and then shut off with the indicators not working at all. It continues to do that type of random sequence

The bike has never spent any of it's 8 year life outside except riding in sunny weather. The previous owner had it stored in a garage when not riding and I have done the same. Bike has 3,900 km's on it.

I haven't noticed any other lamps out as I have checked. The headlight works, brake lights and rear license plate lights are all ok, even when the turn signals are having issues as I was able to replicate the issue once when I was not sitting on the bike, with it running and all the other lights seemed to be ok

I've never seen the flashers go off without the switch being activated.


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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2022, 12:56:41 PM »
Roy, thanks for posting the electrical diagram.   It looks like the turn signal switch (Item #10, top right) works by grounding either the left or right control wire (light blue and red wires) for the turn signal through the dark blue wire to ground.

Frank (If you are comfortable with this), I would try to find the 9 pin connector (Under the tank?) for the harness that feeds the left handlebar switch. Take apart (disconnect) the connector and look at the pins for signs of corrosion. Sometimes just sliding the connector apart then together a few times is enough to make a good connection. Give a light tug on the dark blue wire at both the male and female connectors to make sure it's securely bonded to it's pin.

Roy, I'm not familiar with the newer Guzzi's. Would the connector be a white Molex type similar to this? (Click on pic for full size. It shows both the female and male part of the connector.)




Secondly Frank, follow the dark blue wire from the connector to it's grounding point on the frame. Assuming the wire end is terminated at a circular lug. remove the hold down screw, clean the lug and the frame with scotchbrite or sandpaper and reassemble everything.



Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2022, 03:43:54 PM »
Roy, thanks for posting the electrical diagram.   It looks like the turn signal switch (Item #10, top right) works by grounding either the left or right control wire (light blue and red wires) for the turn signal through the dark blue wire to ground.

Frank (If you are comfortable with this), I would try to find the 9 pin connector (Under the tank?) for the harness that feeds the left handlebar switch. Take apart (disconnect) the connector and look at the pins for signs of corrosion. Sometimes just sliding the connector apart then together a few times is enough to make a good connection. Give a light tug on the dark blue wire at both the male and female connectors to make sure it's securely bonded to it's pin.

Roy, I'm not familiar with the newer Guzzi's. Would the connector be a white Molex type similar to this? (Click on pic for full size. It shows both the female and male part of the connector.)




Secondly Frank, follow the dark blue wire from the connector to it's grounding point on the frame. Assuming the wire end is terminated at a circular lug. remove the hold down screw, clean the lug and the frame with scotchbrite or sandpaper and reassemble everything.
Yes you are correct in how the switch grounds the inputs
No the connectors on the V7 are not like the old Molex they are quite flimsy looking flat pins
Many of the grounding points for the V7 are combined into a large lug on top of the gearbox along with the main battery ground, I dont think the tail area grounds will go there though.

James,
          Thanks for confirming the bike has had an easy life, so much for that idea.
I still feel there may be a bad ground since it seems to happen on both sides perhaps just open up the rear end and provide a temporary extra ground back to a gearbox bolt. The same goes for the front flashers of course.
Apart from that all you can do is keep making observations.
You said earlier that you thought it could be a short, I wouldn't expect it to short out on both directions at once, its really 4 separate circuits from the dash
« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 04:03:28 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline mr_pacman

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2022, 04:52:09 PM »
Just a quick update. Over the weekend I took the battery out of the bike to make sure it was installed correctly, I noticed there were 2 connectors in that area. I have no clue what they were for, but I pulled them apart and put vaseline on them and clicked them back together.

Then, I sprayed a very liberal amount of contact cleaner on the turn signal switch itself. I move the switch to the left and sprayed inside the hole/gap, then the right and repeated that 3 times.

Last night I took the bike out for a ride and made sure to have the RPM's in the upper range in various gears while riding in the left lane of a higher speed road with the left blinker turned on. I kept the blinker on for about 2 mins while I had the bike at various RPM ranges and no flickering at all. I couldn't test it out for a long duration with the right hand blinker but it also appeared to be fine when I had to use it during my ride last night.

So, I'll need to ride it a few more times to see if it pops up again, but last night was a positive experience. I'm hoping it's gone. With my luck it's probably not but at least I had fun last night taking it out.

I'll update if/when things develop.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2022, 04:53:28 PM by mr_pacman »

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2022, 05:41:30 PM »
I thought you would be well fixed by now.
If you look at the direction switch you will see that the switch indicates one way or another by grounding the Red or the Blue wire.
The ground must be good for this to work so you can trace out the ground pointing add a temporary jumper.
On the V7III the handle bars are not grounded., they are rubber mounted but under the left hand side there are a couple of bolts that lend themselves to a jumper.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2022, 05:47:15 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline mr_pacman

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2022, 07:55:39 PM »
I thought you would be well fixed by now.
If you look at the direction switch you will see that the switch indicates one way or another by grounding the Red or the Blue wire.
The ground must be good for this to work so you can trace out the ground pointing add a temporary jumper.
On the V7III the handle bars are not grounded., they are rubber mounted but under the left hand side there are a couple of bolts that lend themselves to a jumper.

Well my celebrations were pre-mature.  Went for a ride today and the indicators were flickering once I got the RPM up.

While your explanation seems logical when I read it, it's way beyond my skill level. I might have to take the bike to a pro and let them have a look at it. I called a few places today but they both said they won't be able to look at it until September as they are pretty busy and electrical issues can take up a lot of time.

Can the turn signal housing be taken apart? I noticed that there are 2 screws on the underside.  Is this where I would see the red and blue wires that need to be grounded for the lights to work?

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2022, 12:38:12 AM »

If its happening on both sides I would be suspicious of common wiring like a ground open at the front or rear
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
Sometimes what seems like a simple system can be the hardest to troubleshoot

Roy  of course is in a different pay scale form me (there is a reason why he is the go-to electrical man) but this was my first thought when I read your thread.
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Offline cowtownchemist

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2022, 09:40:21 AM »
I agree with the theory of a loose ground at the switch as all indicators are seeming to lose connection simultaneously and per the schematic they do share a ground.  My theory with the rpms is that the vibration from the engine is causing the connection to intermittently come loose. 

I have not personally opened up a switch housing before but below is a pic of the inside of turn signal switch from a Honda.  I have circled the ground connection.  The inside of the moto guzzi switch should look similar and if the ground is loose it would be happening at this point.









Offline mr_pacman

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2022, 12:03:39 PM »
Thanks for all of the replies.

One thing I should mention (I'm not sure if this matters or not) is last year I did replace the factory voltage regulator ( which was known to overcharge batteries and my ECU also had a code stored for overcharging) with an aftermarket one from here:

https://rmstator.com/en_ca/rms020-103870

I installed it mid last year and did ride the bike for at least 800 km's without any trouble with my signal lights.

The only reason I bring it up is because my friend (who isn't a mechanic, technician or electrical expert but has more experience than I do) went through the electrical schematic last night and made the following observations:

- The regulator feeds power into the instrument panel
- From the instrument  panel it goes to the signal lights
- The voltage regulator and the flywheel are connected and also linked to the injection load relay, which then feed the instrument panel and then the lights

Is there a chance there could be an interrupted signal from the voltage regulator which is causing an issue like this (and also why I can't seem to replicate the problem when the bike is stationary at high rpm's, but when the bike is moving at high rpm's) or is this going down a rabbit hole that's not worth pursuing at this point?

I'll open up the turn switch tonight to see if I can find anything like a problem with the ground wire.

thanks
James


Offline cowtownchemist

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Re: Turn signals working intermittently - 2014 V7
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2022, 01:18:11 PM »
My initial thought is that if the voltage regulator feeding into the instrument panel was causing an issue, then you would experience the same issue with all of the items coming out of the instrument panel.  That would mean your other warning lights, like oil pressure and the efi warning lamp would also be experiencing intermittent issues since it receives the same feed from the voltage regulator as do the turn turn indicator controls. 

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