Author Topic: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.  (Read 2202 times)

Offline Sye

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2022, 02:16:33 PM »
If you have 12v at the starter motor and it doesn't spin then that's your problem. Could be brushes or windings?

Offline Tom H

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2022, 02:48:46 PM »
Do you have at least 12V at the starter solenoid when you hit the start button? Do you hear the starter solenoid click, or just the starter relay?

If you hear the solenoid click, then you are getting power to it. You could then try giving the starter a good rap on the side of it with a hammer while trying to crank it.

If you don't hear the solenoid click, (Warning....Make Sure Bike Is In Neutral!!!) you could take a wire about 14ga and touch the positive battery terminal with one end and the other end to the starter solenoid connector. Still no click, could be a bad starter?

You have 2 issues going on. It wont crank and it stalls. They may be related to each other. The starter could be good, but you have a bad ground from the battery negative to the engine or frame.

Let us know about the voltage and click.

Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2022, 08:00:50 PM »
If you have 12v at the starter motor and it doesn't spin then that's your problem. Could be brushes or windings?

I have yet to measure voltage at the starter motor. I have measured at the output of relay ( and it shows 12.01V ). Where does the output of relay connect to?
I am guessing it connects to the input of solenoid ?

( I need to study the terminals connections to the motor and solenoid to understand this circuit, I need to also remove the metal covering to be able to access all the connections in the motor and starter circuit it seems )

Thanks.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2022, 08:05:04 PM »
Do you have at least 12V at the starter solenoid when you hit the start button? Do you hear the starter solenoid click, or just the starter relay?

If you hear the solenoid click, then you are getting power to it. You could then try giving the starter a good rap on the side of it with a hammer while trying to crank it.

If you don't hear the solenoid click, (Warning....Make Sure Bike Is In Neutral!!!) you could take a wire about 14ga and touch the positive battery terminal with one end and the other end to the starter solenoid connector. Still no click, could be a bad starter?

You have 2 issues going on. It wont crank and it stalls. They may be related to each other. The starter could be good, but you have a bad ground from the battery negative to the engine or frame.

Let us know about the voltage and click.

Tom

I can hear just hear the starter relay 'click'.

Should I be hearing solenoid 'click' as well ? I don't think I can hear solenoid 'click', but I will double check on that.

( Looks like metal cover needs to be removed, as I found these connections are buried behind the metal cover. )

Thanks.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2022, 08:05:04 PM »

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2022, 09:01:44 PM »
Do you have at least 12V at the starter solenoid when you hit the start button? Do you hear the starter solenoid click, or just the starter relay?

If you hear the solenoid click, then you are getting power to it. You could then try giving the starter a good rap on the side of it with a hammer while trying to crank it.

If you don't hear the solenoid click, (Warning....Make Sure Bike Is In Neutral!!!) you could take a wire about 14ga and touch the positive battery terminal with one end and the other end to the starter solenoid connector. Still no click, could be a bad starter?

You have 2 issues going on. It wont crank and it stalls. They may be related to each other. The starter could be good, but you have a bad ground from the battery negative to the engine or frame.

Let us know about the voltage and click.

Tom

When I hit the solenoid gently with plastic hammer, while pressing the 'Start' button, it started cranking.
I did this few times and it cranked.

Also connected a piece of wire to the small wire at solenoid and measured voltage while pressing 'Start' button.
The voltage showed 11.26V at fully charged battery. While voltage directly at the battery shows 13.1/13.2V.
It seems to me even 11.26V is sufficient enough to get the crank, provided solenoid is hit gently with plastic hammer.


So, some connection inside solenoid is lose/bad, since hitting on it gets the crank going ?
Will it need to be replaced ? just the solenoid or the entire assembly ?

Thanks.
since it is old bike, seems like there is bad electrical connection inside solenoid somewhere.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline Tom H

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2022, 10:32:50 PM »
It looks like your getting somewhere at least on the cranking issue. A rap or two to the solenoid and it at least spun the starter.

Without knowing your exact starter, you may be able to get a solenoid. You might check to see if you have a starter and generator repair place near you. They might be able to tell you whats wrong and how much to fix it. A starter for a big block for instance can be had on the rain forest for about $80, just to give you a price reference. Heck, you might be able to tear down your solenoid and clean it?? A Bosch solenoid for instance can be opened up and cleaned.

But.... Before we go to the above. Could the rap with a hammer be shaking a corroded or loose wire???????? Might look for a corroded or loose ground wire. Look for a wire that looks white and puffy near the connector. Also might loosen the starter mounting bolts, wiggle the starter and tighten the bolts. Sometimes it's that simple??

Tom
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 10:48:36 PM by Tom H »
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2022, 11:36:50 PM »
It looks like your getting somewhere at least on the cranking issue. A rap or two to the solenoid and it at least spun the starter.

Without knowing your exact starter, you may be able to get a solenoid. You might check to see if you have a starter and generator repair place near you. They might be able to tell you whats wrong and how much to fix it. A starter for a big block for instance can be had on the rain forest for about $80, just to give you a price reference. Heck, you might be able to tear down your solenoid and clean it?? A Bosch solenoid for instance can be opened up and cleaned.

But.... Before we go to the above. Could the rap with a hammer be shaking a corroded or loose wire???????? Might look for a corroded or loose ground wire. Look for a wire that looks white and puffy near the connector. Also might loosen the starter mounting bolts, wiggle the starter and tighten the bolts. Sometimes it's that simple??

Tom

Ok, got it.
Will update upon more investigation/tries.

I am worried about less 12V coming in at the solenoid though.

I do know how to increase this voltage to 12V./What could be causing drop in voltage. The battery is new and fully charged.

Meanwhile def will follow/try as per your ideas above..
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline Muzz

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2022, 11:56:59 PM »
When I had relay problems I carried a wire with a Lucar clip on one end, took the feed from the relay off and just flashed my wire directly on to the battery.

You could try that; if it fires up straight away I would then suspect something in the relay.  If it carries on with it's no crank problem it sounds as though the solenoid is suss, and I would suspect it would be the contact inside it.  They do have to cope with a large current.

I did have a problem some years ago when my Breva did that, and it was a bit unusual. It just clicked but the headlight would dim noticeably.  Inside the starter motor itself there is a metal shroud that fill the gap between the windings and the brushes.  This had come loose, and had worn through the shellac on the windings, resulting in a rather large short.  I took it out and threw it away, working on the principle that I may have to clean up the brushes and the com occasionally.  Haven't needed to yet in about 25,000 miles.  Why they didn't make it out of nylon or similar I have no idea.
Muzz. Cristchurch, New Zealand
03 Breva

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Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2022, 11:43:56 AM »
It looks like your getting somewhere at least on the cranking issue. A rap or two to the solenoid and it at least spun the starter.

Without knowing your exact starter, you may be able to get a solenoid. You might check to see if you have a starter and generator repair place near you. They might be able to tell you whats wrong and how much to fix it. A starter for a big block for instance can be had on the rain forest for about $80, just to give you a price reference. Heck, you might be able to tear down your solenoid and clean it?? A Bosch solenoid for instance can be opened up and cleaned.

But.... Before we go to the above. Could the rap with a hammer be shaking a corroded or loose wire???????? Might look for a corroded or loose ground wire. Look for a wire that looks white and puffy near the connector. Also might loosen the starter mounting bolts, wiggle the starter and tighten the bolts. Sometimes it's that simple??

Tom

Hurray !

Got the solenoid to crank without having to tap with small hammer !

It was general cleanup from inside of starter-solenoid assembly that worked.

There was about 18yrs old dirt/gum inside, that I cleaned, lubed the mechanical gear a bit, cleaned electrical surfaces and such..and that was it pretty much.

BTW, it is not Bosch starter-solenoid assembly, it is some name starting with 'V', and is made in France.

I have yet to connect the connection wire to motor, when I decided I want to take a tea/coffee break..Ah..finally.
I can't wait to make the final connections, install bolts, tidy up..and get the bike started..

So, thank you everyone here for all of your inputs/help ! Very much appreciate that.  :thumb:

As for the original engine stall, any ideas how to test that ? I am thinking I will just drive around the block many times, staying close to home and see if
bike runs without stalling.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 11:50:24 AM by MotoGuzzi750 »
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline Tom H

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2022, 06:21:34 PM »
Congrats on hopefully getting the starter to reliably crank. Sounds like 1 issue is taken care of.

From the way I read your description of what you did as in cleaning the wires up a bit. I would strongly recommend cleaning up the battery grounds to frame and or engine and pull each relay out one at a time and give the prongs a good cleaning.

Then you need to test ride it and see if the stall issue is solved. Close to home is best. If it still has the stall issue you may need to try to move for instance the side stand up and down and see what the result is. For instance, lets say you hit a bump and the bike stalls, could be the stand switch is not adjusted properly. Intermittent electrical problems are the worst to diagnose. Take your time and give as much info as possible and maybe we can help.

Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2022, 11:07:12 PM »
If you have 12v at the starter motor and it doesn't spin then that's your problem. Could be brushes or windings?

Update:

1. I spoke too soon when I said the problem was solved.
2. I came back to square one, after re-installing all the connections to starter motor. i.e. no solenoid click, (& no motor spin ), only click at relay.
3. Then I checked that solenoid does click by itself, but not when power to starter motor is connected.
4. Main thing is starter motor does not spin with12V applied directly from battery. So I removed the motor/opened it up, and its all dry/dried old grease, jammed everywhere ! ( it is ~15year old starter motor )
5. AT this point I am pretty sure, solenoid is ok, but motor is not.
6. Next, going to clean motor, check and replace brushes, lube, then re-try.
7. Resistance at the winding of motor shows about 2-Ohms. Which I am assuming to be within spec, but I do not know for sure.
At least winding is not open circuit.
8. Not sure if they sell the motor by itself, if yes, maybe I would consider replacing if the winding etc. is damaged beyond repair/restore.

Thanks.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline Tom H

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2022, 12:03:33 AM »
EDIT... I put the cart before the horse I think...... You said you have the starter fully disassembled I believe. I would clean it all up especially the copper on the armature where the brushes ride. Some fine sandpaper will clean this up as well as the contact area of the brushes. When you reassemble, make sure the brushes are being help firmly by the springs to the armature. Then.........

You can take a known good battery and automotive class jumper cables and try to spin the starter with the starter removed from the bike. Hook the cable from battery negative to the mounting flange of the stater. Hook the positive cable to the battery and touch it to the large wire that enters the starter. This should make it spin. You can also check the solenoid and starter the same way. The difference would be that you connect the positive to the lug on the solenoid, the one the bike battery is connected to, and then take a screwdriver or the like to go from the cable to the little start wire tab on the solenoid. This will show that both work or not.

The starter may jump around a bit. Best to test with it clamped in a vice. Lacking the vise, just be ready for it to move a bit. Testing it this way also eliminates any issues with wires on the bike. If it doesn't sound like it spinning like a banshee, but just slowly turning then it is most likely bad.

If it fails, take a do a search on fleabay or the rain forest for a starter. You should be able to find one for about $80 or so. As I mentioned, you could also check for a re builder in your area to make sure it's bad. If you don't mind a used one, give Mark at Moto Guzzi Classics a call, he might have one.



Tom
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 12:29:06 AM by Tom H »
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2022, 07:03:00 PM »
EDIT... I put the cart before the horse I think...... You said you have the starter fully disassembled I believe. I would clean it all up especially the copper on the armature where the brushes ride. Some fine sandpaper will clean this up as well as the contact area of the brushes. When you reassemble, make sure the brushes are being help firmly by the springs to the armature. Then.........

You can take a known good battery and automotive class jumper cables and try to spin the starter with the starter removed from the bike. Hook the cable from battery negative to the mounting flange of the stater. Hook the positive cable to the battery and touch it to the large wire that enters the starter. This should make it spin. You can also check the solenoid and starter the same way. The difference would be that you connect the positive to the lug on the solenoid, the one the bike battery is connected to, and then take a screwdriver or the like to go from the cable to the little start wire tab on the solenoid. This will show that both work or not.

The starter may jump around a bit. Best to test with it clamped in a vice. Lacking the vise, just be ready for it to move a bit. Testing it this way also eliminates any issues with wires on the bike. If it doesn't sound like it spinning like a banshee, but just slowly turning then it is most likely bad.

If it fails, take a do a search on fleabay or the rain forest for a starter. You should be able to find one for about $80 or so. As I mentioned, you could also check for a re builder in your area to make sure it's bad. If you don't mind a used one, give Mark at Moto Guzzi Classics a call, he might have one.



Tom

Thanks for your inputs/suggestions.

So far, It looks like one of the brushes is worn out ( The other seems ok ).

I could not find new set of brushes for this Valeo starter, of even a close one ( which I would file to closely match the shape of original ).
Closest I could find was a full brush assembly ( but I am hesitant spend that much just on the brush assembly, when I could spend some more and buy a *whole* starter assembly new online ). So decided to give the original brushes another try, since when I took them brushes out, there seems enough material left.
The worn out brush falls short to reach to the copper surface on Armature, partly due to its jammed, partly because it is worn out.

Decided to free up the movement of both brushes, and also will be creating more back pressure on the worn out brush by inserting a small piece of insulating material between worn out brush and the spring. ( So that it makes good/firm contact with copper surface at the Armature ).
I suspect the contact of the worn out brush was intermittent and also not firm enough.

I will be testing this setup soon..lets see...

PS: And oh yeah, the Allen bolts at the solenoid are so tight that I could not take them apart so far. I am hesitant to apply heat just yet/unless need to open up solenoid is a must. I will see about that later..
 
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 07:20:11 PM by MotoGuzzi750 »
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2022, 07:14:36 PM »
EDIT... I put the cart before the horse I think...... You said you have the starter fully disassembled I believe. I would clean it all up especially the copper on the armature where the brushes ride. Some fine sandpaper will clean this up as well as the contact area of the brushes. When you reassemble, make sure the brushes are being help firmly by the springs to the armature. Then.........

You can take a known good battery and automotive class jumper cables and try to spin the starter with the starter removed from the bike. Hook the cable from battery negative to the mounting flange of the stater. Hook the positive cable to the battery and touch it to the large wire that enters the starter. This should make it spin. You can also check the solenoid and starter the same way. The difference would be that you connect the positive to the lug on the solenoid, the one the bike battery is connected to, and then take a screwdriver or the like to go from the cable to the little start wire tab on the solenoid. This will show that both work or not.

The starter may jump around a bit. Best to test with it clamped in a vice. Lacking the vise, just be ready for it to move a bit. Testing it this way also eliminates any issues with wires on the bike. If it doesn't sound like it spinning like a banshee, but just slowly turning then it is most likely bad.

If it fails, take a do a search on fleabay or the rain forest for a starter. You should be able to find one for about $80 or so. As I mentioned, you could also check for a re builder in your area to make sure it's bad. If you don't mind a used one, give Mark at Moto Guzzi Classics a call, he might have one.



Tom

As for new starter, I was able to find a new one online somewhere, and keeping that as my backup plan, if all else fails.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline Tom H

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2022, 07:54:14 PM »
Brushes, check your starter model number and look at the pic, if not the right one, search there. Euro Moto Electrics can be your friend for odd electric parts.

https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/val-brushes.htm

And from Stein Dinse for comparison, look at the models it fits:
https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?language=sc&products_id=22757

And a complete starter, no idea of the quality, check your fitment:
https://www.amazon.com/STARTER-MOTOR-2007-2008-30730710-LRS01550/dp/B013SG8WCU

Tom
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 08:02:48 PM by Tom H »
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2022, 08:58:58 PM »
Brushes, check your starter model number and look at the pic, if not the right one, search there. Euro Moto Electrics can be your friend for odd electric parts.

https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/val-brushes.htm

>> Yes !
>> This is the brushes that would fit/was looking for,
>> *out of stock* unfortunately.

And from Stein Dinse for comparison, look at the models it fits:
https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?language=sc&products_id=22757

And a complete starter, no idea of the quality, check your fitment:
https://www.amazon.com/STARTER-MOTOR-2007-2008-30730710-LRS01550/dp/B013SG8WCU

Tom
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 09:00:16 PM by MotoGuzzi750 »
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline Bulldog9

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2022, 09:21:27 PM »
Unrelated, and hope the OP gets this sorted, but what would cause the Hazard warning switch light to stay lit?
MGNOC#23231
The Living: 1976 Convert, 2004 Breva 750, 2007 GRiSO, 2008 1200 Sport, 2016 Stornello #742,
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Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2022, 10:42:27 PM »
Unrelated, and hope the OP gets this sorted, but what would cause the Hazard warning switch light to stay lit?

( Not that I know much about this topic ):
Sometimes the switch gets stuck from very staying unused for very long time/rarely. I would double check if the switch is operating properly, i.e.
does it get into off position physically after turning it off?
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2022, 10:47:49 PM »
EDIT... I put the cart before the horse I think...... You said you have the starter fully disassembled I believe. I would clean it all up especially the copper on the armature where the brushes ride. Some fine sandpaper will clean this up as well as the contact area of the brushes. When you reassemble, make sure the brushes are being help firmly by the springs to the armature. Then.........

You can take a known good battery and automotive class jumper cables and try to spin the starter with the starter removed from the bike. Hook the cable from battery negative to the mounting flange of the stater. Hook the positive cable to the battery and touch it to the large wire that enters the starter. This should make it spin. You can also check the solenoid and starter the same way. The difference would be that you connect the positive to the lug on the solenoid, the one the bike battery is connected to, and then take a screwdriver or the like to go from the cable to the little start wire tab on the solenoid. This will show that both work or not.

The starter may jump around a bit. Best to test with it clamped in a vice. Lacking the vise, just be ready for it to move a bit. Testing it this way also eliminates any issues with wires on the bike. If it doesn't sound like it spinning like a banshee, but just slowly turning then it is most likely bad.

If it fails, take a do a search on fleabay or the rain forest for a starter. You should be able to find one for about $80 or so. As I mentioned, you could also check for a re builder in your area to make sure it's bad. If you don't mind a used one, give Mark at Moto Guzzi Classics a call, he might have one.



Tom

The motor finally spins ! yay !

( This is with existing brushes, cleanup, and increasing back pressure on more-worn-out brush, and directly connected to battery, without solenoid )
The speed of spin seems rapid/normal ( and not slow/weak )

Will be trying with solenoid next..

Thanks.

P.S.: Also now there is decreased resistance value measured from positive to ground of motor.
Previously, value of resistance was more ( indicating poor connection/worn brush/dirty copper surface at Armature )

« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 10:51:26 PM by MotoGuzzi750 »
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline Tom H

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2022, 11:02:50 PM »
 :thumb: :thumb:

But....You have made it work for now, but you really new to search out a new set of brushes. Google the starter brand and part number and include brushes. I found a few places that sell them.

Install your solenoid. Make sure that the whole thing works. You may end up needing a solenoid as well. Might as well get both at the same time...........PROV IDED you need both.

Hopefully this will get it cranking reliably. Then move on to solve your running issue!

Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2022, 06:47:34 AM »
:thumb: :thumb:

But....You have made it work for now, but you really new to search out a new set of brushes. Google the starter brand and part number and include brushes. I found a few places that sell them.

Install your solenoid. Make sure that the whole thing works. You may end up needing a solenoid as well. Might as well get both at the same time...........PROV IDED you need both.

Hopefully this will get it cranking reliably. Then move on to solve your running issue!

Tom

Put back together and it cranks like a Tiger !
Yay !

Cranked few times, every time it works./cranks solid.
Will be taking for test ride soon, being careful not to wander off far..let’s see..

Thanks.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2022, 01:30:32 PM »
:thumb: :thumb:

But....You have made it work for now, but you really new to search out a new set of brushes. Google the starter brand and part number and include brushes. I found a few places that sell them.

Install your solenoid. Make sure that the whole thing works. You may end up needing a solenoid as well. Might as well get both at the same time...........PROV IDED you need both.

Hopefully this will get it cranking reliably. Then move on to solve your running issue!

Tom

Took it out for test runs and results look good so far.
Cranked strongly every time, ran each time without any problems. ( relief )
Also, at about 3k rpm, charging voltage is about 13.2V/13.5V, which seems good.

Actually I am a bit surprised that it cranked at all before the repair, it was so dirty/jammed/rusty inside the starter.

Thanks.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline Tom H

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2022, 03:26:04 PM »
Congrats! Hopefully your cleaning to get the starter to work maybe also fixed your other issue!

Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2022, 03:42:33 PM »
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_750_Breva.gif
I would guess something wrong with the engine position sensor item 2
it's not sensing that the engine is rotating
You can add a light to the injection relay
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Tom H

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2022, 06:21:51 PM »
I was thinking about your charging voltage. I think it's a little low. I think it S/B about 14 - 14.5V.

The low voltage could be just normal or it could be an issue. You could check the wire connectors to the regulator and clean them. Could help?

Something to think about. Let's say it's not charging enough to keep up with the usage. The bike could cut out due to a low battery. There is an odd thing about, at least some, automotive style batteries. If you ran a battery down trying to get something to start, then let the battery rest. Many times you can get it to give a good crank again after letting it rest for let's just say 20 minutes.

This is sorta like your description of when your bike stalled and wouldn't crank. Low battery, let sit, starts then it runs out of enough battery power and stalls again. If the battery was getting a good charge while the engine was running, it wouldn't run out of enough power to at least power the ignition system.

You have at least overcome the crank issue!! On to the running issue!!
Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2022, 09:36:33 PM »
I was thinking about your charging voltage. I think it's a little low. I think it S/B about 14 - 14.5V.

>> I don't think I have ever seen voltage in the range of 14 - 14.5V on this bike.
So, this may be the problem.

The low voltage could be just normal or it could be an issue. You could check the wire connectors to the regulator and clean them. Could help?

>> Ok. Will try to check/clean those wires.

Something to think about. Let's say it's not charging enough to keep up with the usage. The bike could cut out due to a low battery. There is an odd thing about, at least some, automotive style batteries. If you ran a battery down trying to get something to start, then let the battery rest. Many times you can get it to give a good crank again after letting it rest for let's just say 20 minutes.

This is sorta like your description of when your bike stalled and wouldn't crank. Low battery, let sit, starts then it runs out of enough battery power and stalls again. If the battery was getting a good charge while the engine was running, it wouldn't run out of enough power to at least power the ignition system.

>> Yup. Except that now it has a cleaned up starter with brushes with good contact, so even with low battery it is able to crank/keep running, I think.
But def. want to check on voltage regulator situation..

You have at least overcome the crank issue!! On to the running issue!!

>> Yes, it was some work, but kind of worth it. It was hard to decide to try repair or just buy a new one. Thanks.
Tom

My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline mechanicsavant

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2022, 08:37:01 AM »
It was probably mentioned & I missed it . A voltage drop test on the cables may help too , ya can have volts but ya gotta get the amps too !

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2022, 09:50:53 AM »
I was thinking about your charging voltage. I think it's a little low. I think it S/B about 14 - 14.5V.

The low voltage could be just normal or it could be an issue. You could check the wire connectors to the regulator and clean them. Could help?

Something to think about. Let's say it's not charging enough to keep up with the usage. The bike could cut out due to a low battery. There is an odd thing about, at least some, automotive style batteries. If you ran a battery down trying to get something to start, then let the battery rest. Many times you can get it to give a good crank again after letting it rest for let's just say 20 minutes.

This is sorta like your description of when your bike stalled and wouldn't crank. Low battery, let sit, starts then it runs out of enough battery power and stalls again. If the battery was getting a good charge while the engine was running, it wouldn't run out of enough power to at least power the ignition system.

You have at least overcome the crank issue!! On to the running issue!!
Tom

So, far I have completed around 8 test runs, and never had starting/cranking or stalling issue.
It seems to be resolved after I repaired the brushes & cleaned inside the starter motor.

Thank you.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline lucian

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2022, 06:00:15 PM »
I think the combination of high resistance in the start circuit along with short trips with multiple starts was pulling the battery down faster than it could recharge. It becomes a vicious cycle as cranking a starter on low voltage will cause excessive arcing at the brushes and ever increasing resistance in the circuit due to carbon build up on the armature and the  brush keepers. When the battery reserves drop below where  the charging system can compensate at idle the bike quits. A tender is your friend with occasional use or short trips.  Good work men!

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Help: 2004 Breva 750 engine dies at stop.
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2022, 11:59:10 PM »
I think the combination of high resistance in the start circuit along with short trips with multiple starts was pulling the battery down faster than it could recharge. It becomes a vicious cycle as cranking a starter on low voltage will cause excessive arcing at the brushes and ever increasing resistance in the circuit due to carbon build up on the armature and the  brush keepers. When the battery reserves drop below where  the charging system can compensate at idle the bike quits. A tender is your friend with occasional use or short trips.  Good work men!

I think your analysis is accurate.

Thank you all those helped/supported, really appreciate that.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

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