Wildguzzi.com
General Category => Bike Builds, Rebuilds And Restorations Only => Topic started by: pressureangle on January 01, 2015, 05:50:28 PM
-
My '85 LM IV was my work/play ride for 30k+ miles, and was kinda tired. Add to that my noob mistake of letting my 21 y.o. Son ride it with a promise to be kind to it and coming home with grass in the fairing and a leaky rear main seal I decided to do a complete restoration/rebuild/improvement.
So, she's down to the crankshaft and beyond. Cosmetically, not doing anything special. I've already upgraded the brakes with 4-pot brembo calipers. New Works Performance shocks in back and new springs/dampers in the front.
Now, because I love the bike and I can't leave well enough alone I'm giving it a Web 86b camshaft. To take advantage of that, Ron Hamp at RHC racing is doing the porting on the heads, and I found a new-in-the-box BUB exhaust on ebay a while back.
There has been little discussion of Web cams anywhere to be found, and I've been counciled to leave them well alone and use Megacycle. I've used both in other engines in the past, with good success-but engines want what engines want, and the science says Web 86b (as well as the only few guys I've heard used it) is the best cam for a lot of reasons. Trouble is, it needs larger diameter tappets. Also, I've read complaints that Web cams wear quickly in this application. To solve both problems, I had Web grind the cam with 1* of taper on the lobes and I'm using Ford Y-block lifters; Euro stuff doesn't use lobe taper or lifter crown. The US style coupled with the bore offset should provide nice lube, rotation, and pressure center.
I've put the pics on my FB album, if you like. I'll update here as I add stuff.
https://www.facebook.com/eric.lacruze/media_set?set=a.785211141491618.1073741826.100000082172534&type=1¬if_t=like
Most all the pics I took are now on Google+.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOaL8YD6zmXSrvHLxZ_TyTU0ZeX1y6301rOJS6mfjex7KAF4nlefP8rus4OfFmn6A?key=YmoxSV9NTFYtYl9wMmFHZ3pnOFZoZEVyeF9kLUFn (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOaL8YD6zmXSrvHLxZ_TyTU0ZeX1y6301rOJS6mfjex7KAF4nlefP8rus4OfFmn6A?key=YmoxSV9NTFYtYl9wMmFHZ3pnOFZoZEVyeF9kLUFn)
-
WOW!!!!! 30K miles. Mine has close to 70K. Nothing tired about it. :BEER:
Matt
-
Tired was the appearance, not the engine-of course, the kid abused it so hard the lifter faces were hammered and it leaked from everywhere...
-
I've just heard of Web cams. An engine builder recommended them to me for a V7 Café build that I may be doing. I'm interested to see how they work. As far as lifter rotation, I'm under the impression that Guzzi accomplishes that by cam lobe to lifter offset. Are the Web cams new, or do they regains your stock cam?
-
There's sparse information around, here's one discussion;
http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/camshaft-questions-webcam-86d-vs-norris-megac-x7-x8.4642/#post-34424
The tappet bores are offset, but Euro cams are flat, so any deviation from perpendicular will cause edge loading. Adding a degree of lobe taper and crown to the lifter faces should resolve that, and helps rotation also.
For this cam, Web welded and reground my stock one. I chose this cam specifically because of the power characteristics, my cylinder head guy, and because I'm always going across the grain. If I was building anything less than "The best street Guzzi ever built" I'd not have bothered with the extra effort involved in changing lifters, bushing the bores, machining the cases, and custom pushrods I'll have to fab. I'd probably take the off-the-shelf megacycle for something closer to stock.
Did I mention Baisley roller rockers?
-
Even with the stock B10 cam the big valve heads are murder on valve guides due to the side loadings on the valves. Roller rockers will presumably help but any agressive increase in lift will surely exacerbate the problem.
Pete
-
Materials science will surely help too. It is what it is.
-
Tappet bushings installed, lifter/lobe track checked.
(https://scontent-a-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10940416_954536121225785_7754985584205670922_n.jpg?oh=b2b1e34ce7ac9b08d268b22507eb56b9&oe=552F5DCC)
(https://scontent-a-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/q81/s720x720/1618690_954584977887566_6109176794002849843_n.jpg?oh=36ba4bce068ab58baad358c23a779f5c&oe=555D41C5)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10408563_954585144554216_8281488820657643460_n.jpg?oh=49dfb5325d13504179443a91430034b5&oe=55642664&__gda__=1428289261_9dcfab962888ee09d1ba3db8828db872)
-
Looked at your FB pics. I did exactly the same thing with the relay addition, in the same place, about 10 years ago on my LM IV. One relay is energized by the ignition switch for the main 12v circuit, the other is for the headlight hi-beam, also a 100W halogen.
Tobit
-
I've just heard of Web cams. An engine builder recommended them to me for a V7 Café build that I may be doing.
These two sentences had me stumped as I re-read them several times. Then I read the rest and it all made sense. :D (webcams?)
-
Even with the stock B10 cam the big valve heads are murder on valve guides due to the side loadings on the valves. Roller rockers will presumably help but any agressive increase in lift will surely exacerbate the problem.
Pete
My cylinder head/engine development guru http://ronhamp.com/ (http://ronhamp.com/) has had unexpectedly great results with this stuff, on everything from valves to cams to transmission gears; significant power and durability improvements on the dyno and track.
http://microblueracing.com/index.html (http://microblueracing.com/index.html)
I'll send them a package with the cam, lifters, crank and valves. The price is pretty small for the gains. That, premium valve guide material and the roller rockers should resolve the head wear.
Maybe I'll just keep this thing after all.
For anyone who's interested, I'm having Ron digitize the cylinder heads after they're finished so anybody who wants to repeat this build can get CNC head porting without all the R&D time we'll have in it.
-
Smith Brothers pushrods. At about $10 apiece, cheap. Custom length to accommodate the Ford tappets.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1796610_963882733624457_4618145524509705921_n.jpg?oh=7f2eedc85fbdc202991f9b8584a43e5a&oe=555599FD&__gda__=1431262012_cd0f151eabb18b808fb7736e5b9beede)
-
Some great information- Thank you! I don't want to eat popcorn while i watch.
How did you come across the coating? What experience have you had with it?
-
Some great information- Thank you! I don't want to eat popcorn while i watch.
How did you come across the coating? What experience have you had with it?
I've had no personal experience with MicroBlue, but I've been friends with Ron Hamp at RHC Racing since the mid-1980's. He's had multiple flattrack and Motocross national championship-winning engines for years. He was told about it, tried it out and found that it's not only as good as claimed but stays on the parts apparently forever-not like some coatings that work but wear off pretty quickly. He's tested and verified significant power gains on the dynomometer using it on nearly everything that moves in an engine from the piston to transmission.
I'm using it not only to see the power gains, but because I really dislike the reputation Web Cams have for soft cams and MicroBlue is insurance. For the record, WebCam's welded lobes have been used for decades, I used them myself in the '80's with never a problem. I suspect that a large part of the problem comes from people putting used lifters on new cams; also, Guzzi like all European manufacturers uses a flat lobe and lifter base whereas American manufacturers use tapered lobes and crowned lifters. I had Web grind my cam with 1* lobe taper, and the Ford tappets are crowned stock to work with that. Even rotating by hand to test the lobe pattern, it's obvious that this combination spins the tappets like a top! Guzzi offset the lifter bores to accommodate rotation, but at best since the tappet covers the entire lobe face they have to skid somewhere, being across different radii. A tapered lobe/crown has a smaller contact surface but tends to roll across the face rather than skid. So, in a stock non-tapered setup the lobe has to be absolutely square to the lifter bores to ensure no edge loading. How many people verify that perpendicularity?
I see no complaints about Megacycle cams wearing, but metallurgy being what it is perhaps the stock tappet accommodates the wear instead of the cam. But Megacycle doesn't make an 86b, and the Web cam is much less expensive as well as, by all accounts, a much better cam although takes some engineering to install.
I'm having duplicates made of everything; the adapter bushings, tappets, pushrods and camshaft; RHC is digitizing the cylinder head work so this can all be repeated. I'm making a new, easy-to-use boring tool which centers in the adapter bushings instead of the lifter bore-the concern is in wear of the bore since the bushings are a .002" press fit and it's critical they don't come loose from a worn bore. In the end, I'll offer the kit through RHC racing and offer the bushing installation if a customer sends their cases over which should be more powerful and more driveable than just sticking what fits under the stock lifters and with stock heads.
-
Guzzi like all European manufacturers uses a flat lobe and lifter base whereas American manufacturers use tapered lobes and crowned lifters.
Guzzi lifters are crowned - it's very slight, but they are crowned.
-
Guzzi lifters are crowned - it's very slight, but they are crowned.
I found that V11 lifters are crowned, but are the older straight style? It's possible that Guzzi crowned them precisely to keep from edge loading the cam in the case something is not perfectly square, but I can't find any verification of that.
-
Too lazy to go find the reference right now, but I've read somewhere (maybe Guzziology/Dave Richardson?) that all Guzzi lifters are ground to something like a 3' radius. (That's three feet, across something ~1 inch wide.) Maybe not enough to see, but supposedly good enough to insure rotation under actual running conditions.
Howard
-
Guzziology states that they (Richardson) have reground lifters cheaper than new, and that they have a 'small' amount of radius. Interesting in any case, I'd like to verify whether new Guzzi parts have taper and crown. The way the tappet bores line up on the lobes, the taper needs to be towards the front of the engine on two lobes, to the rear of the engine on the other two. I'll have to ask Web whether they tapered their lobes before I asked them to, or not-and in what direction. I assume that whoever originally asked them to build the 86b worked that all out one way or the other-but if the 86b was originally designed as a flat lobe that would explain the wear factor. Without any lobe taper, a crowned tappet rides on or very close to the edge on the nose of the lobe.
-
This is good stuff- I'm getting the popcorn after all.
Any comparative data on the mods and the coating? Always something to consider as I have a few bikes.
-
Maybe I missed it, but where did the roller rockers come from? To my layman's (LeMans?) eye, the geometry of the OEM rocker puts the foot at the top of the valve at a terribly acute angle, putting a lot of side pressure on the stem.
This pic from your collection looks much more reasonable.
(https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10898279_943313222348075_7094538008093509303_n.jpg?oh=e7f4d5d3e09693f56b482f8d9f5e32e0&oe=554C7F53)
While you're going to all this trouble for the valve train, are you also going with needle bearings for the rockers instead of bushings?
Just another popcorn eater with a LeMans IV in the garage.
Tobit
-
Rocker arms are a subject with much voodoo attached, even in the automotive industry. There are very few people who truly understand everything that happens up there. I'm not one of them. That said;
These are converted stock rockers, done by Dan Baisley http://www.baisley.com/rocker_service.htm (http://www.baisley.com/rocker_service.htm) Baisley is one of the places that does understand everything that happens up there, and has been converting stock rockers to rollers for something like 35 years, and are well-proven over that time. Of course, nobody makes a new roller rocker for Guzzis so this is the only option-not that any new units have any measurable benefit over Baisley conversions, at least in Harley-Davidsons. I might, just for an education, set up the heads with light springs during assembly and check the lift curve with stock rockers and the rollers, just to see if and where there are any geometry differences. In any case I went roller to eliminate the valve guide wear these heads are known for. There is some additional valve-end weight increase, which is not desirable but since I have to use fairly heavy springs anyway it's just something to calculate in to the rate-another reason I'm having MicroBlue coat both the cam lobes and lifters.
It's been proven over time that needle bearing shafts are failure-prone over time; needle bearings do not like to reciprocate, they like to rotate. In reciprocating stations like this they tend to twist and bend around the shaft leading to wear and breakage. Additionally with the MicroBlue coating on the shafts there should be no significant friction loss with the bushings compared to bearings.
-
MicroBlue parts are back.
I can't begin to tell you how smooth and slippery this stuff is. They micropolish and coat whatever this stuff is with no dimensional changes. It looks and feels like slick plastic. The mains spin on the crank about 4 times with a finger flick.
The quick will note that I had Total Seal make me a set of 88mm rings with three-piece oil rings.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/10848867_965563740123023_9069285758005226437_o.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/10344428_965563810123016_579138249840271009_o.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t31.0-8/10887631_965563816789682_6767434571793677766_o.jpg)
-
Certainly interesting. I've never heard of Micro blue..I'm having a hard time understanding a "coating" that doesn't change the part dimensionally. Do you have any more info?
-
Certainly interesting. I've never heard of Micro blue..I'm having a hard time understanding a "coating" that doesn't change the part dimensionally. Do you have any more info?
http://microblueracing.com/low-friction-bearings-technology.html (http://microblueracing.com/low-friction-bearings-technology.html)
-
I built a new counterbore cutter that runs in the tappet bushings rather than the stock tappet bores to eliminate any possible wear that would affect the interference fit. Pretty simple but I have to give myself a pat on the back for making something that cost all of $8 instead of the $450 a pro toolmaker wanted. Mine follows the shape of the tappet head, too.
The counterbores still show some traces of the original cutter I used. Exploration, I guess-I'm OCD about things that don't even matter.
Today begins assembly. ;D
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/1517564_965942703418460_3576108838696775035_n.jpg?oh=52abb7cdf907d2ba5f9cda39a29d4ad7&oe=58AEFA67)
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10978531_965942696751794_1222656623814469286_n.jpg?oh=3f5064de7c66abbeb7c4b7e7798fbf30&oe=58E84805)
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10993491_965942700085127_8102455180950396535_n.jpg?oh=5312b056adb8c89c51405d1ea58ba648&oe=58E5361E)
-
Quite a bit of chatter there in some of the c'bores and chamfers, but pretty clever. ;D I don't suppose it really matters. I *assume* it's just for clearance of the Ford lifters?
-
Quite a bit of chatter there in some of the c'bores and chamfers, but pretty clever. ;D I don't suppose it really matters. I *assume* it's just for clearance of the Ford lifters?
Well, mechanically it's a tough machining process. It starts an interrupted cut, then smooth. Doing it with a cordless drill doesn't help the appearance but I want to prove this is all simple desktop work that can be done by anyone with enough skill to rebuild their engine at home. Add in that I had no real control of relief angle of the cutting edge. Good thing it's pretty soft aluminum it's working in.
The chatter most obvious in the one hole is left over from my previous iteration of this tool; the JB weld I used to fasten the cutter was maybe 30 years old and the bit came loose. New epoxy in this one!
The clearance has two dimensions; the stock tappets are .866" bore, the Fords are 1.00", plus radial clearance around the edges. The cam has much more lift than stock so the tappets have to move up higher into the case area as well. I very much like the Ford tappet; the diameter is perfect and they have a very long stem, and with no restriction in bushing length have a very long bearing area so they should never wear out. These tappets are also well-proven in high performance Ford engines of the past also, so no worries about structure in this thing. One consideration I've seen discussed is tappet-to-neighbor-lobe clearance; I checked mine carefully and the lobes are not so wide that there is any chance of interference but it needs to be checked carefully with every cam. You may have to turn down the tapped diameter a little, but there's no margin for error there.
-
Add in that I had no real control of relief angle of the cutting edge.
Hey, a diamond wheel would have taken care of that. ;D Of course, after buying it, :o you'd maybe rethink that machine shop price. ;)
-
EPM's butt-kicking lightweight flywheel. Cam and crank are in, just waiting for new oil pump to show up.
(https://scontent-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/11001634_967365536609510_7377104590147303456_o.jpg)
-
Finally. Only lacking the new oil pressure valve for the sump, making a windage tray and assembling everything south of the heads. I'll be glad to get it off the bench and into the frame.
I admit that I've fallen completely down the well on this thing.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10502190_970306749648722_7839695838456801102_n.jpg?oh=681e5bfb1fdc80ccef9cfe2ed61e99d7&oe=554EFEC5&__gda__=1430963887_3d3bab3c96ec4f398529da49f55b07a3)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10978606_970306896315374_3052613817272355083_n.jpg?oh=2a62bad14913c0c7280ce027cb64ef8f&oe=55947C20&__gda__=1431621450_aeaac6cf237855b1277f4152635a5384)
(https://scontent-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10978487_970307002982030_1563884773449054059_n.jpg?oh=34171c441df18e8644bd07c9b9b923bb&oe=558BC35E)
-
Very impressive work! :bow :bow :bow
Cheers
Jim
-
Going together. Here you see that I clearanced the cylinders for the tappet bushings. A better solution would have been to turn the bushing tops down to fit in the unmodified cylinders but they were in before I thought of it. Since the new tappet arrangement has no oil drainback, I cut the gasket out between the tappet bushings and cylinder to make a path.
(https://scontent-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10368234_970956359583761_4713570709576665736_n.jpg?oh=36d80dfcbea20a3c27c1f84a7ba5b27c&oe=5555D2D1)
(https://scontent-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11008407_970956526250411_608277539359909270_n.jpg?oh=64d86147f129a548a3a452194e181315&oe=5587511A)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10993434_970956952917035_6944500883260037896_n.jpg?oh=16874318ab7dadfa6e225e17c1c46247&oe=55963DD9&__gda__=1431040336_deae957255d1d3485f2f2c4d3aa8467a)
-
I've relocated the voltage regulator to be as close as possible to the alternator, which can't hurt efficiency. That also puts it out in the breeze where it can stay cool better and saves some space under the side cover.
(https://scontent-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10402024_971352109544186_3238596397401690175_n.jpg?oh=4f07966fe9fa7e1589529ab1aa36fdb0&oe=55505B60)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11014648_971352106210853_7489276459435117997_n.jpg?oh=5d35960525a526eb91b5dfb9a82c80f2&oe=558DC392&__gda__=1435841272_51e1541ebbce95b6ad5c190f7f2a7bbc)
-
Make sure of clearance to tire/fender at full compression , sometimes it's surprisingly tight in that area. I have squashed some stuff so check it
-
Make sure of clearance to tire/fender at full compression , sometimes it's surprisingly tight in that area. I have squashed some stuff so check it
Thanks! I will.
-
Check everything!
Cam matches published figures +2* advanced which will probably correct with the cam chain breaking in.
Degree wheel is printed for the front of the engine...careful there.
(https://scontent-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1507727_972623066083757_1217318506470208880_n.jpg?oh=7f4c4b40a5b93d7c8b1a9c3b60c93602&oe=554ABE16)
-
Soon.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10440279_974070842605646_3103392185800642440_n.jpg?oh=eaa7783ba509d917fc1e5c948b8854f0&oe=5549125B&__gda__=1435156785_7b3e81c2a0d1c669d15b847462892d89)
-
Engine, swingarm, rear frame bits, battery, etc.
Discovered with the length-adjustable WP shocks that the shock mounts are not at equal length apart; the left side is about 2mm longer. the swingarm is straight, the axle fits nicely with no looseness and slides right through the drive side perfectly. I'll chalk it up to production tolerance.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/1482758_976089095737154_480423491603354888_n.jpg?oh=5ca35dadfccf1a4428dc30cf2d0e8495&oe=558A4773&__gda__=1434987604_c7b47bd8ea36eb017c1de3eab68af110)
-
Man, looking good!! Bet you can't wait to fire her up!,
-
Beautiful job. Keeping it stock? You know you could change your mind at this point and go to a different place. ;D
-
Got any pics of the heads after Ron Hamps work? did he remove a lot of material?
-
Stock-appearing, just some serious upgrades in motor and suspension.
Rust now, Bitches!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11026089_976483819031015_1571964118655276448_n.jpg?oh=0d985692cd002158ff31c2fdf6fb2351&oe=5583F468&__gda__=1435188062_fa33852ee84564c7e1d26e3b2d4aadb7)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11021213_976483835697680_7170700679783874243_n.jpg?oh=0722ba52f7a283c3ebe912ae69cdd703&oe=558A68E2&__gda__=1434913672_4abc221b771b8d37f9258c8d1208f768)
-
Got any pics of the heads after Ron Hamps work? did he remove a lot of material?
They're not finished. Material here, material there. Take some, add some. No pictures yet.
He did the heads for my 96" Shovelhead H-D what made 113hp with factory head castings.
-
Cool beans. I've got a spare set of Centauro heads that I want to have worked over and have had no idea of who to send them to. Looks like he may be the guy. thanks!
-
Cool beans. I've got a spare set of Centauro heads that I want to have worked over and have had no idea of who to send them to. Looks like he may be the guy. thanks!
He should be working in NASCAR or F1 but hates the city. He's been copied for production by a number of Factories, and beaten them and their best in every arena he's built engines for. If you have him do the heads and design the cam to go with it, you'll have something you aren't expecting. 4 valve heads have so much more to offer.
-
Brakes, front wheel (backwards of course) and off the blocks. Foot controls on.
These gold Brembo calipers make a difference that can't be overstated. Thanks EPM for the adapters.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11720_977142528965144_3914131399948978591_n.jpg?oh=c2f5c65a78ee4246895b68073108bbd6&oe=559135CC&__gda__=1434306993_6255cf0170061fddb085df2b45904fd4)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10410987_977142562298474_8070809502522891049_n.jpg?oh=c02d466c14f2099c06d43b0d433ee9bc&oe=554C30E2&__gda__=1433727550_772b4c57fff967c7b8f515c488bc7a3b)
-
You are going to love those updated 2-pots up front!! Had Ed put them on the Lario project and stunning difference. Nice.
-
Bodywork and handlebar test fit. It would have been nice if Guzzi had given some space in the front of the tank to put the bars anywhere you wanted.
A set of Euro lamps would be nice. :food
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10385386_979462492066481_7069067825778781227_n.jpg?oh=1e89990facd8e7aab3608560db49e087&oe=55913707&__gda__=1433622381_77238b220cd8762d51cd0a21bf0afc5c)
-
Looking good!
-
Who has some decent turn signal lamps they'd part with? A set of Euro lamps would be nice. :food
I doubt you'll find Euro signals. If you do, send the second set to me. In the meantime, I'll check my parts. I think I have a set of the U.S. rectangular signals and their triangular mounts. PM me for information.
-
You could try here for the euro indicators
http://www.gawa-guzzi.de/elektrical.html
-
Just pretty boring stuff to post, but I've found along the way certain tips that make life easier.
To get the ancient mung off the carb bodies and make them look new again, hot water and TSP (Tri Sodium Phosphate) heavy duty detergent at Home Depot, Lowes, etc.
For the brass innards, a ten minute soak in MEK (also Home Depot) for petroleum mung then a Vinegar/Salt solution bath to remove any corrosion or oxidized bits. They can stay in overnight or forever with no harm.
(https://scontent-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10981207_982168098462587_7157306746728690820_n.jpg?oh=e4bda5bb8b5dcf3157bc81544479071d&oe=5584923F)
(https://scontent-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10984498_982168095129254_5821541527641544298_n.jpg?oh=70450dd47d1beea65c3ae149623ff265&oe=55899677)
-
It took forever to make myself happy with mounting the coils. Dyna coils don't fit under the tank, and I hated them under the side cover, with 3 feet of spark lead rubbing everything between them and the plugs.
This bracket is for a H-D Sportster, I just bent the under-tank hangar out to fit the battery box studs ( found longer studs with unthreaded centers too, the buggers kept trying to hide in the housing)
Should be nice and cool back there, with short wire runs and spark plug wires. Hopefully no interference with air cleaners.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11069357_986514384694625_1193171170597683752_n.jpg?oh=55244ba70c999c0da4bfc4c7a7eef0c8&oe=557DA034&__gda__=1434042370_cf874fe7e2b2a7fda52a796cfecb7509)
-
Spoiler alert
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10850013_987298531282877_4163922492922951836_n.jpg?oh=32b608a87a63eb40face7c4083fe39ad&oe=5574AD15&__gda__=1434369919_0fe548a1bbdbf2e5b4c29e9eacf18bab)
-
It took forever to make myself happy with mounting the coils. Dyna coils don't fit under the tank, and I hated them under the side cover, with 3 feet of spark lead rubbing everything between them and the plugs.
This bracket is for a H-D Sportster, I just bent the under-tank hangar out to fit the battery box studs ( found longer studs with unthreaded centers too, the buggers kept trying to hide in the housing)
Should be nice and cool back there, with short wire runs and spark plug wires. Hopefully no interference with air cleaners.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11069357_986514384694625_1193171170597683752_n.jpg?oh=55244ba70c999c0da4bfc4c7a7eef0c8&oe=557DA034&__gda__=1434042370_cf874fe7e2b2a7fda52a796cfecb7509)
that looks good!
got a part number or link for the bracket?
-
that looks good!
got a part number or link for the bracket?
uh...nope. It was an NOS ebay purchase...American Heritage the old listing says. Can't find it googling but I'll keep looking.
Basically it's a hexagonal piece drilled for the bracket and coils, with spacers for the coil legs. Each is 120* apart. Nice and sturdy too.
-
thanks a lot, if you have any more info please do send it my way, google-ing "american heritage" and "harley davidson" is bringing up all kinds of leather fringing and studs and my lemans is not in the market for any of that!
your bike is looking like its going to be really special by the way, well done..
-
Pressure Angle,
Would you be kind enough to post a picture from the rear to show the back of the frame brace/battery plate? I'd like to see how it fastens to the rear V of the frame.
Very nice work. I like your attention to detail.
-
The battery plate isn't unusual, GuzziTech makes them and they bolt in to the stock locations. Had I thought it through more in the beginning, I may have made some alterations to allow for more bracing, but I don't have the roads or opportunity to ride it hard so it wasn't a priority. Ed at Guzzitech can make your frame as braced and crazy as you want it.
(https://scontent-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11052514_987743174571746_4881931498678633634_n.jpg?oh=cd55a5d3bccf9c4cf8c678c961b09ac9&oe=55B294D3)
-
I've seen Ed's braces- they look real nice. i am making my own- time available, mill, materials. I like to make stuff like that. Just getting a clearer understanding what gets braced.
The picture is perfect!
Thanks ;-T
-
Just a FYI, Todd is Guzzi tech, Ed is Guzzi Power..
-
Just a FYI, Todd is Guzzi tech, Ed is Guzzi Power..
LoL oops apologies to all. I bow to both gurus. :bow
-
Just a FYI, Todd is Guzzi tech, Ed is Guzzi Power..
BIG difference!
-
they were both Guzzitech .
-
JOY
Finding all the 'did it a little wrong' stuff in the wiring.
The 4 way flasher switch was hinkey, had to clean it out and then who the F*** knows how that thing works? 2 hours later, with a power probe, test light, and 2 different not-my-year wiring diagrams it's sorted.
Of course I reversed the wires in the flasher socket. Of course my 3-wire flasher has a diode so it didn't work. Of course, it needs a 3-prong flasher LED-capable.
Of course I had a couple wires in the left handlebar switch harness wrong.
The devil's in the details.
I feel like a voodoo doctor, or electrical shaman now.
-
Getting closer.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11065868_990338134312250_5683984663633389694_n.jpg?oh=8495bec4627eb76293e2a94879497d9e&oe=557495CB&__gda__=1437840033_5c06daadf24afb93a399570fda558da2)
My cousin bought about a thousand pounds of lead shot at an industrial auction, which was used to ballast big machinery. I figured it would be good to damp handlebar vibrations; it's loose, so no frequency can defeat it and I can adjust the volume as necessary. Getting a little OCD about it, it will also add moment to the inertia, acting as an anti-tankslapper media. ::)
(https://scontent-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11026187_990338244312239_1405106959897332672_n.jpg?oh=e8935bb909a13e382ae9fb66c584040a&oe=55B5E49C)
-
I thought a Guzzi had impeccable, unruffled steering. How much weight are you going to add?
-
I thought a Guzzi had impeccable, unruffled steering. How much weight are you going to add?
Seriously, the steering is zero consideration for the shot. I won't even add any until I've ridden it enough to know if it needs any. The right handlebar used to buzz at some speeds and annoy me; with so many changes, I can't know if it will go away or get worse. I may or may not put a steering damper on it, but it's really window-dressing; I never had one, never needed one, and I've swapped out the 16" wheel for 18" long ago. The thing is steady as a boxcar.
-
Love me some LEDs. They're very visible, but not nearly as bright as this picture appears. My phone-cam apparently loves them too.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/miniature-wedge-base/74-led-bulb-1-led-wedge-base/226/1059/ (https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/miniature-wedge-base/74-led-bulb-1-led-wedge-base/226/1059/)
(https://scontent-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10947323_991040717575325_469163042549763597_n.jpg?oh=91a83499741543b3c63c4e5464ada3c7&oe=55AF2EF6)
If you're wondering about the mileage on the Odometer, this dashboard set is an ebay purchase; mine are not back from the repair shop yet.
-
Great job. Enjoying seeing the progress. I've d that shot trick myself and worked just fine. Did you paint everything or clean a lot up? Looks spiffy. ;-T
-
Great job. Enjoying seeing the progress. I've d that shot trick myself and worked just fine. Did you paint everything or clean a lot up? Looks spiffy. ;-T
Everything got cleaned, soda blasted, scrubbed, and painted with premium quality PPG except for drivetrain and brackets. I used Dupli-Color ceramic high temp engine enamel on the engine, tranny and rear drive. I hope it stays on as well as it does on iron.
-
Good unexpected news-
This bike had about 10k miles on it when I bought it, now near 46k. Since I've owned it I used nothing but Royal Purple 20w50 motor oil (free from the fleet at work) or 10w40 RP motorcycle oil otherwise.
Ron Hamp checked the guides, he says they have ZERO apparent wear and do not need to be changed or serviced. ;-T
I knew RP oils were good, but I really didn't think anything was THAT good. :BEER:
-
Yeah, the big valve engine is pretty hard on valve guides.
-
Got any pics of the heads after Ron Hamps work? did he remove a lot of material?
(https://scontent-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11050721_1008861945793202_952501236314049269_n.jpg?oh=eb9d5e2f7ba14546538c8f180e6d5ba9&oe=55DC2F40)
-
interesting. looks like he added material/epoxy to speed up intake velocity?
-
interesting. looks like he added material/epoxy to speed up intake velocity?
It's a total reshape. Raise the roof, raise the floor, a pinch of salt etc.
-
Any updates on this project? How did this end up.
-
Heads aren't done yet-artists can't be rushed, especially in the middle of motocross/flattrack season.
But I did get the very nicely used BUB exhaust off the shelf.
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11167722_1023253107687419_7088267143365148843_n.jpg?oh=e88f2308ae1c7901ccb6151b23947ca9&oe=55F7E3D5)
-
Heads aren't done yet-artists can't be rushed, especially in the middle of motocross/flattrack season.
But I did get the very nicely used BUB exhaust off the shelf.
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11167722_1023253107687419_7088267143365148843_n.jpg?oh=e88f2308ae1c7901ccb6151b23947ca9&oe=55F7E3D5)
I'm anxious to see how the head work effects performance. What brand shocks are those?
-
Shocks are Works Performance Pro/Racer series, their best twin shock. Custom valving and 2-way adjustable. I've used them since the '80's.
-
I've been away handling real estate and family issues, no progress to report. I'm dyin' here, missed half the summer riding...and I'm up in Michigan where the riding would be good.
-
What's the problem with the heads? They are as boring as batshit! Any head shop should be able to run them over in a week max???
Pete
-
not a head problem, a me problem. The heads are sitting around waiting for me.
-
Just an update,
Been away from home since June, family business. Should get back to it in Feb/March.
:P
-
Finally home, with heads. Though not a full-race, certified max effort the RHC heads flowed 210cfm @ 28" water, at .500 valve lift with the stock valves. We didn't check the exhaust sides.
"Only" as good as an XR750 he says. :rolleyes:
I have a castaway sportster to assemble and get out of the workspace, then I'll be back to the 'Guzzi.
-
Finally home, with heads. Though not a full-race, certified max effort the RHC heads flowed 210cfm @ 28" water, at .500 valve lift with the stock valves. We didn't check the exhaust sides.
"Only" as good as an XR750 he says. :rolleyes:
I have a castaway sportster to assemble and get out of the workspace, then I'll be back to the 'Guzzi.
[/quote
Any updates?!!!!!!!
-
Guzzi lifters are crowned - it's very slight, but they are crowned.
As are Daytona lifters as well as tapered cams and offset lifter bores.
Ciao
-
Finally getting the heads together.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/gEfWgF/IMG_20160511_181238230.jpg)[/url]
[url=http://ibb.co/dm7oTv](http://thumb.ibb.co/dm7oTv/IMG_20160511_181328118.jpg)[/url]
[url=http://ibb.co/nRaLaa](http://thumb.ibb.co/nRaLaa/IMG_20160511_181518573.jpg)[/url]
] (ftp://ibb.co/gEfWgF)
-
Finally hoping we can see how this project performs!!!'
-
...And, through careful, thoughtful management, with considerable thought given to the custom measuring rod made from a stock pushrod and rocker arm adjuster, managed to bollux the pushrod length measure.
Don't bother asking how, I haven't figured it out yet. But the new rods are exactly the same length as the sample I quite obviously sent to them with the wrong length. So another round trip to Oregon.
On the good side, got oil in it and squirting out the rocker stands, and the OP warning switch and light work.
Smith Brothers pushrods. At about $10 apiece, cheap. Custom length to accommodate the Ford tappets.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1796610_963882733624457_4618145524509705921_n.jpg?oh=7f2eedc85fbdc202991f9b8584a43e5a&oe=555599FD&__gda__=1431262012_cd0f151eabb18b808fb7736e5b9beede)
-
Regulator final and carbs on. Rolled it through to prove oiling to top end and pressure switch.
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13237611_1232595073419887_7780757261082219351_n.jpg?oh=4121aef8229c54be881ecf6e47311775&oe=57E08EDB)
.
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13240735_1232590813420313_9107682215355010660_n.jpg?oh=21faf5b86ed5c69215a766646946d860&oe=57AA4C95)
-
bike looking amazing...
jus went through your fb photos,
the 'led' shot of the dash - have you found a way of getting rid of the 'pod' instrument housing? I really like being able to see the steering stem and yoke and I've never really liked the 'pod' on mine...
really inspiring stuff you're doing there!
-
bike looking amazing...
jus went through your fb photos,
the 'led' shot of the dash - have you found a way of getting rid of the 'pod' instrument housing? I really like being able to see the steering stem and yoke and I've never really liked the 'pod' on mine...
really inspiring stuff you're doing there!
Hadn't thought about a custom dash, really just going back to stockish with upgrades. But it wouldn't be too hard for somebody to make a nice turned-finish aluminum or stainless plate to hold all that stuff...
Like this guy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtOTU6WXc1Q
-
Top end assembly.
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13256457_1238991062780288_341368400518218270_n.jpg?oh=9a3db16b85eaf0ee3c69299d7ba75d2e&oe=57D56D18)
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13240747_1238991072780287_7393367233429664387_n.jpg?oh=3e5defe36d86a906d28a499ccd8d1948&oe=57E2DA19)
-
Top end assembly.
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13256457_1238991062780288_341368400518218270_n.jpg?oh=9a3db16b85eaf0ee3c69299d7ba75d2e&oe=57D56D18)
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13240747_1238991072780287_7393367233429664387_n.jpg?oh=3e5defe36d86a906d28a499ccd8d1948&oe=57E2DA19)
What are setting your rocker arm end float at?
-
What are setting your rocker arm end float at?
'enough' but not 'too much'.
There's probably .005"-.010" on them. Too much clearance doesn't help the oil stay where it needs to be.
-
Second start. Still needs final timing.
https://www.facebook.com/eric.lacruze/videos/1239207566091971/?l=2886184328069540647 (https://www.facebook.com/eric.lacruze/videos/1239207566091971/?l=2886184328069540647)
-
So. Talk to me about the bearings.. the Kid mentioned he would like to do that on his Spot. I told him I knew nothing about where to get them, etc.
-
So. Talk to me about the bearings.. the Kid mentioned he would like to do that on his Spot. I told him I knew nothing about where to get them, etc.
McMaster Carr has them and the washers
-
McM Motorcycle and aircraft supply.. :smiley: I should have known..
-
McMaster Carr has them and the washers
http://www.mcmaster.com/#5909K13
http://www.mcmaster.com/#5909K73
-
Top end assembly.
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13256457_1238991062780288_341368400518218270_n.jpg?oh=9a3db16b85eaf0ee3c69299d7ba75d2e&oe=57D56D18)
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13240747_1238991072780287_7393367233429664387_n.jpg?oh=3e5defe36d86a906d28a499ccd8d1948&oe=57E2DA19)
I like the Baisley roller rocker conversion and am considering it myself but whats wrong with the original rocker end float arrangement? also the original end float shims look very worn, an indication of another issue that needs investigating?
Ciao
-
I like the Baisley roller rocker conversion and am considering it myself but whats wrong with the original rocker end float arrangement? also the original end float shims look very worn, an indication of another issue that needs investigating?
Ciao
Nothing wrong with the stock spring setup, in fact it appears that the pushrod angle, made even more severe with my setup, drives the rockers towards the short side away from the spring/needle bearing. I only put them in because they came with a set of heads I bought on ebay. The bronze thrust washers have some grooving but it matches the grooving on the end of the rockers; I didn't have them shaved or polished. It's really not that big a deal.
-
as the pushrods push the rockers downwards i would expect the bearing to be fitted on the other side?
as soon as some pressure is applied the bearing wont be loaded any more?
-
http://www.mcmaster.com/#5909K13
http://www.mcmaster.com/#5909K73
Thanks, Charlie.. I'll pass it on to him.
-
as the pushrods push the rockers downwards i would expect the bearing to be fitted on the other side?
as soon as some pressure is applied the bearing wont be loaded any more?
That's correct. They may be no more than whiz-bang jewelry.
However, when things are whacking around at 8500 rpm, they do insure that the rocker can't compress the spring and move upwards; if it does, that closes the valve lash and could conceivably whack the valves together, or hold them open, or both.
-
That's correct. They may be no more than whiz-bang jewelry.
However, when things are whacking around at 8500 rpm, they do insure that the rocker can't compress the spring and move upwards; if it does, that closes the valve lash and could conceivably whack the valves together, or hold them open, or both.
I just talked to the Kid, and he said he was talking to a well known Guzzi Guru that uses them. He said if you watch it running with the rocker cover off, the rocker arm goes back and forth between the pedestals. Makes sense to me that the bearings would stop that, and that would be a good thing. <shrug>
-
Nothing wrong with the stock spring setup, in fact it appears that the pushrod angle, made even more severe with my setup, drives the rockers towards the short side away from the spring/needle bearing. I only put them in because they came with a set of heads I bought on ebay. The bronze thrust washers have some grooving but it matches the grooving on the end of the rockers; I didn't have them shaved or polished. It's really not that big a deal.
I was thinking more along the lines that I have had several heads apart and not seen any wear at all on these bronze shims. There was speculation in another post I read where the poster had the same wear on his that the oil pressure to the heads may be an issue. I dont know, maybe Pete or someone else thats had a lot of them apart may be able to tell us how common that wear is. Reminds me of the wear you see on the cam retaining ring that was solved by a modified ring assembly.
I have a new set of later (Stelvio?) 2 valve rockers for my bike I got cheap and checked them against my original V11 ones although they look identical. It appears the later type have the pushrod arm around clocked around the arm buy maybe 3 degrees and the pushrod arm moved laterally toward the outside of the head by a few mm as well. Dont know if this is a Guzzi design improvement to the arm geometry or it has a genuine reason for the later heads. Anyone know?
Ciao
-
I was thinking more along the lines that I have had several heads apart and not seen any wear at all on these bronze shims. There was speculation in another post I read where the poster had the same wear on his that the oil pressure to the heads may be an issue. I dont know, maybe Pete or someone else thats had a lot of them apart may be able to tell us how common that wear is. Reminds me of the wear you see on the cam retaining ring that was solved by a modified ring assembly.
I have a new set of later (Stelvio?) 2 valve rockers for my bike I got cheap and checked them against my original V11 ones although they look identical. It appears the later type have the pushrod arm around clocked around the arm buy maybe 3 degrees and the pushrod arm moved laterally toward the outside of the head by a few mm as well. Dont know if this is a Guzzi design improvement to the arm geometry or it has a genuine reason for the later heads. Anyone know?
Ciao
I can't speak to the later rockers, perhaps they ground smooth the ends. All the washers I have came from LeMans, so big cams and high RPM may have something to do with it, and all of the rockers have a poorly finished end. If I'd thought of it, I'd have had them finish ground before sending them out to Baisley.
-
Getting close. Tomorrow will probably be the shakedown cruise.
Clutch hydraulic system finally done, a few odds and ends, and had to move the horns again-they hit the DYNA box.
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13308253_1243574885655239_556061431956398227_o.jpg)
-
That's sweet! :thumb:
I rebuilt a Le Mans engine maybe....15yrs ago? Put in larger cyls (94mm I think), and the last P3 cam on the planet. I think mine might have been the last heads Manfred Hecht ported & flowed..
The larger bore then required double plugging as the original LM is about a big as you can get with a high crowned piston.
The P3 cam required stronger springs.....which needed chromoly pushrods. The increased power required carillo rods.
Naturally - I had the entire mess balanced.
The entire project then required and updated starter to turn it over.
So - hard to do just 'one thing'. And it wasn't cheap.
But the first time it started was.......orgasmic. :drool:
I used a Bub Hyper system exhaust and with the big boomer engine it sounded like a cammy 350 small block hotrod.
It was fun, I learned alot, but prolly wont do that again.
-
With the WebCam 86b, this thing cranks easily, even with -.030" decked heads, giving something like 10.5:1 compression. There's enough intake opening to keep the cranking pressure down. It sounds great so far, but with the light flywheel and on the centerstand it sounds mild enough-particularly compared to the horrible exhaust it started with, some nearly-empty D&D cans on the stock headpipes. It's mellow, and less cammy than it was with the stock engine.
We should see today.
-
...And, around the block!
First impressions; drivability is much better than stock. Expected.
RH carb needs inlet valve cleaned or replaced.
Very Quiet. Nice.
Hydraulic clutch doesn't return as quickly as I'd like; but the clutch is entirely new, things should tighten up with a couple miles.
I'm happy it has all 5 gears up and down, didn't make any bad noises, and didn't leave any parts behind or leak anywhere.
https://www.facebook.com/eric.lacruze/videos/1244002155612512/ (https://www.facebook.com/eric.lacruze/videos/1244002155612512/)
-
That's excellent, congratulations.
Maurie.
-
Since my crew chief forgot to order mirrors until he went for the first test-ride, I filled a little time installing LED side lamps where the factory had reflectors. I've had those side reflectors bring my attention to more than a few motorcycles and bicycles, I figured lit ones can't hurt. I think they added a little spice as well.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/lnRzg4cv0dnQaMBfPTEWPALh-w4kMN39KHfodQcd3EkjnGZrmWpDLa4-K0rCbDKr18M2XsVSIkH4nSc7yb-aHRW7Pa4scbUQ3MyaQUvcDS_yV9KuGdg85-zUbcZpS480lS1oVlCFgvt1ULKllRFq8x9sJ4jkolun3KJmE2ovKsrrA6cWO5el3YgAr0R5ryOFc669VJcMiIuDgk_aK3TA3ZPHAoFxvSTvNPbuO-a-zwX6Vi6t_6cLBmGOCXfTtCZU5VBsD0CFz9RSe697u5mlgudE7QRJmn2VZj-KFUQCGP3rHt02X5FpQq_ZF9WjFqc30Afpw-ARjT4wjkLHHR7MwjHOIHlLh9qOUGs-bjMt2QlSZsaABVl9wJScx5Z99SZLPEbMpDDVDRvxX9hwGSAQf4-do9d5phZcXX53K3uvCLDJ3bxAk3BGi_5snXIxX7k4Pk2oIOoFr3EbUL339aLRe6pwQ5WTD6zU3ZYx1Rcfk-H2mJNLbETZwgTb4ZuAWMmOAZnJyuQvl9mAimzNeJDptZrxqwnTEL1f14AWVjnwzhLT5tO_UGMEJFFn4Ji_rNiStoNIN5LKRlcaiXVFN44gHGK4j-n4loc=w1691-h951-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hoC-rgfZff31UCkvmjvZE_MACBD3At0GYctk0E9eiq2WL9B3aKGpDzM6Jt1ITK1BaXEPjnuO1T15x6UP0BOQpvZ8BrelcYekik62X-VZXAPK5rJScw8j4JsZyozOBPIzAA0KAWkclWPQ43v7SPW_o0p7237DLA8nmUdCVj5HTnO9TT1niaJ_DTUpHvHYcwxTgFYjDjrFO621kyDElAWuP9_kvuequPBTftKPO_KIJXjLkUUUCYBiioRGhbBRsRH9be7oXWvpVcC_z6AganXZlivUqfghDRfhDLdEytY5IrN3vnZ-10TOmMbrASTUhkkkMX3lFgSfJLzqrFgX__bzp5xixTjrDLb3eD1v-McLhdHRZlUMdleAFlbc-eo5_6OMUprwOFEucN4ytaMfup449shr3gMK56X1EDuyDFQiC02NjSINWOYzMTY89xJEKFs3aWpwQ4GydkDgRCkV-TQFxFnNJbY92R74OqAwn2R9sSEP_62zhELiFHkya_W8mHtfLBOIxXSU83hc0igOuW-yZGi-uO_FHMpgPl7GP0skcPyHoIJr_QgvaseesAk6GjMoRV_Mxhq4tu3fHmIRSBEUqWRlrtjG39g=w1691-h951-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/A-wljYmCOYHMIvoih1KeFTzMGZK-xZfMlHXUHhM0LUsEO1HhdCXF8COh9f-Vig7ol3kaCvIiTX9bORw_luDW2LRp91BKRte3xF2oaKMS3I72YgZukOz4Ke3vKLkWVG1ax6e65SbtzdBSTtslJ8HhCNbFpqTj1euFONiHCW0tUKXGz6kkE7f6CF93siqEkuzijkmBieRb65xnk7e-k-80lFtIIuD4z_McR9gDrr2MxM0By5JB9XpF1_G7fvi_eJMeqs6_o0Uc9OGdkZsE4OjOtOSasSm10UrOtp0ePNI8WINJ2Rdfdw4bnTVTjq7OGjYC6pnf6Ak1RdUuNeOqxiklGlaoADB2WnrJtCmlpeRwHcpnHFY_nnwpkN97s7UGEIM0s_9qeksP-AJ_F03qkoqztO4x7bfwzMhPTCs-ND5GCp2tsP8Kqe_R8iqrNtegwKh25OG84z7UbIQNrhvBfj-XT91wjGTsjDY_Geg9ptBJYj-xFnmghsOW-m2n7z224BrnfHCcwr2RpcFN7_dgIJwRWSRHz3gj_PCLUiRnga95MG6LyuOZqXrX-uF3WTEr-SrWmtw80nHrmgdAtEBMVSl30jeDPQBmJIE=w1691-h951-no)
-
I moved the photos, and added a bunch more, to Google+.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOaL8YD6zmXSrvHLxZ_TyTU0ZeX1y6301rOJS6mfjex7KAF4nlefP8rus4OfFmn6A?key=YmoxSV9NTFYtYl9wMmFHZ3pnOFZoZEVyeF9kLUFn (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOaL8YD6zmXSrvHLxZ_TyTU0ZeX1y6301rOJS6mfjex7KAF4nlefP8rus4OfFmn6A?key=YmoxSV9NTFYtYl9wMmFHZ3pnOFZoZEVyeF9kLUFn)
-
So, two more attempts at a shakedown only went about 4 blocks, with the right cylinder dropping out. First time was right after I filled the tank, thought maybe I forgot which way the petcocks turned. Started right up 5 minutes later and the next morning. Second time, I got the cyl. back for a short way by gapping the spark plug cap, but dropped again in a minute.
Turned out that my very carefully cleaned, tightened, and sealed spade connection between the Dyna and RH coil got hot and failed due to high resistance.
So, never having needed those connections but to take the motor out, and having had issues in the past, I cut them off and soldered the wires directly and sealed.
Of course at that moment, the LH carb decided the needle valve needed to be replaced so my shakedown is waiting on MG Cycle and USPS priority mail.
Harumph.
-
sounds painfully annoying....
the curse of the intermittent tonti right hand side cylinder strikes!
(rattling down the road on one cylinder, keeping the revs up, thinking maybe its the fuelling, maybe its the spark, hmmm could be the plug, could be the coils......)
been there and 'harumph' is the right word!
-
EEE-gads.
Found the time to retorque the heads, adjust valves, synch carbs.
The parts guys never ordered a spare set of valve cover gaskets, and the mechanic tore one in half. With only 25 miles on, of course. Ham-fisted crowbar, that guy.
So waiting, one more time, for the mail to come before the real first ride.
-
Well, finally. I got 50+ miles on this morning, with only a single problem. The Mechanic didn't remember to tighten the taillight nuts and it is swinging on the wires. You can see in the photo it's starting to come loose already at the halfway point of the ride.
Impressions;
Drivability is awesome. There is no point at which it doesn't run better, from idle through 6500rpm (I went there once)
It's ridiculously faster than it was stock. I have no idea how fast that is, but damn. It's as fast at half throttle as it was at full throttle before, and the main jets are so lean it needs to be throttled all the way to 5500 before it can go wide open and even then it's lean.
It's a ton smoother than before. I installed Carrillo rods and didn't rebalance the crank. It's dead smooth at 4k rpm, which is of course about 80mph. No need to weight the bars.
Suspension is a huge improvement. I knew it would be, and better be for the cost.
Valve train is a bit noisier than stock, but I knew it would be with chromemoly pushrods. Once day I'll check hot clearance, currently they're set at RaceCo recommended .002" cold. I'll probably go to the old H-D standard of 'light roll cold' (zero + oilfilm lash)
It's very punchy. The added compression and cylinder head efficiency really puts the hammer in it every power pulse. I probably should have upgraded the compensator spring in the transmission. Oddly, even though it has better characteristics below 3000rpm than stock, because of the pulses and improved throttle response it doesn't encourage you to drive it there. Stock was softer and easier to get lazy and keep RPM low. 2500 is a very nice cruise rpm.
I haven't even pulled the plugs yet to see where they're at. I'm sure there's a lot more in both drivability and ultimate power; the valve train should be stable to 8000 rpm, maybe 8500. I can't know how much faster it is upstairs. It pulls from 3000-6500 with a barely noticeable bulge at 3500, then linear to the top. Very easy to go very fast.
Next on the list; a new full-face helmet. The half helmet does not lend itself well to carburetor tuning speeds.
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13533003_1264735786872482_3146788225784682483_n.jpg?oh=5febd27b4c3922f58d8cbe19bf19f704&oe=57F1E5B2)
-
That first ride (or flight) on something you built is awesome, isn't it? Attaboy.. :thumb:
-
Your description of the first ride was SOOOO good I had to read it three times...great to hear your hard work and attention to detail is paying off! Time to clean up the wrenches and just ride.... :thumb:
-
Changed the needle jets from AB268 to AB265. Mistake, too lean. Back to 268.
Main jets from 130 to 140, huge improvement. Trying 150s today.
We'll see after a ride, but feels like I'll need to lean out the slides from 50/3. Anybody got a stock set lying around?
-
What makes you think slides? You are making rather large changes at one time. I went 265 to 264 and it was a whopping difference. Went from way rich to way lean. I'm not sure if there's a size between 268 and 265??
-
Yes, the initial changes are very large-but this is not the same engine that the carbs were on before. More compression, far better heads, big cam and open intakes.
Slides, because the just-off-idle is just rich enough to burble while easing around. With the 268's and the K19 needle in the leanest clip, the part throttle is lean enough to weaken if you open it too soon. I'll go to full rich on the needles and see what happens. Typically, I run my needles on the lean side for economy and tune the accel pumps to deal with whacking the throttle, which I'm not prone to doing anyway. So the seat of my pants says more main jet, more needle, and less slide.
So today's report is;
AB268/K19 lean; not too bad.
150 main jet; WOW. I found as much or more between the 140 and 150 as between the 130 and 140. In one short 1st gear crank the front got light over a little dip.
I have to check, I don't think I have any bigger mains than 150's. I'll do a proper plug chop in the future, and schedule some time at the local dyno for some real numbers. So far, it's stronger than I ever expected and smoother to boot.
-
I would agree to raise the needle if it's too lean just on throttle. I too had most of the same changes you did with my 650. Went from 30 to 36 carbs also. A 650 4-valve per. cyl. Lario (LM IV little bro). They like gas. Still getting 45 mpg mixed.
-
Went full rich on the needles, runs good-I'll have to drop them a clip at a time to find the sweet spot. Today I'll take out the 57 pilot jets and install 52's (because all I have are 55's and 52's) and see if the off-idle richness goes away.
-
Are you certain it's only rich just off throttle? Before you said it was too lean? Before you mess with jets try a middle notch on needle. One thing at a time. A hair rich is better than lean for temps.
-
Are you certain it's only rich just off throttle? Before you said it was too lean? Before you mess with jets try a middle notch on needle. One thing at a time. A hair rich is better than lean for temps.
You're not following.
130 mains, 57 pilot, AB268 needle jet, k19 #1 groove lean. Burbles at barely open, weakens or quits when opening quickly. So-so top end.
140 mains, 57 pilot, AB265 needle jet, k19 #1 groove lean. Leaner and drivable at opening, very lean through the middle, better top end.
150 mains, 57 pilot, AB268 needle jet, k19 #4 groove rich. Burble is back at opening, good through middle, beastly on the main jet.
I've been doing this for 35 years, and on this particular motorcycle for 10. This is rough jetting, just getting it drivable in between too lean to run and too rich to keep plugs from fouling. It isn't rocket science to separate the basic fuel circuits at the same time when they are that far out. Of course, it's going to take 500 miles to get it perfect, and a dyno to get the mains there.
I'm not confused or confounded.
-
You're not following.
130 mains, 57 pilot, AB268 needle jet, k19 #1 groove lean. Burbles at barely open, weakens or quits when opening quickly. So-so top end.
140 mains, 57 pilot, AB265 needle jet, k19 #1 groove lean. Leaner and drivable at opening, very lean through the middle, better top end.
150 mains, 57 pilot, AB268 needle jet, k19 #4 groove rich. Burble is back at opening, good through middle, beastly on the main jet.
I've been doing this for 35 years, and on this particular motorcycle for 10. This is rough jetting, just getting it drivable in between too lean to run and too rich to keep plugs from fouling. It isn't rocket science to separate the basic fuel circuits at the same time when they are that far out. Of course, it's going to take 500 miles to get it perfect, and a dyno to get the mains there.
I'm not confused or confounded.
As I understand it you went up 20 jet sizes and 3 clip notches with all else being equal (your #1 and #3 examples). Those are two major changes at one time. If you're close I'd do the simple change first by playing drop the needle, then try a little smaller jet if too rich. I'm not doubting your abilities but playing with one change at a time gives you more absolutes to go from. Mine ran great up top but way rich down low. Needle made little change. I changed atomizer one size smaller and moved up a size at a time on my mains until it ran best. Yahtzee!! Of course there's more than one way to skin a cat. It worked for me. Best with this.
-
Should be getting to the dyno next week for a final tune and recording. This thing is a beast.
Sorry no GoPro yet, I'll try to get to that next week as well. Haven't had enough time to ride to get 200 miles on it yet.
-
Very nice report.
I especially like the jetting reports. Keep the updates coming!
-Ulrik
-
OK, got off to the dyno today. Made a couple passes, with the seat of the pants tuning. Was too rich everywhere, didn't have time to change anything and retest, so I'll go back next week.
Nearly 69hp, 55 lbs-ft of torque.
Not too bad, with a torque curve like a Caterpillar dozer. Good smooth top end, diving off about 7500 sounding like the valves didn't want to stay where they belonged. If final tuning shows it still going up at the same RPM, I'll revisit the valve springs down the road. I think 70rwhp is a given, and 75 not out of the realm of possibility. A truly roadworthy machine! I still have to get a GoPro video up sometime.
(https://goo.gl/photos/TmzF85yw4S5bTkXX8)
-
Final fitting and ready to ride.
A little more jetting yet, it appears that early on I'd been chasing the piston rings, which took surprisingly long to seat. I've been leaning it back up past where I began, I think. Back to the dyno after it has 500 miles.
(https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15492075_1414297088583017_801538398125692067_n.jpg?oh=00a91ff8d855f8ff87eb8becbca3c846&oe=58E89FE7)
-
:thumb:
-
I love the silver, she's a beaut!
-
I love the silver, she's a beaut!
That's 1968 Dodge Silver. (leftover from my '68 Charger lol)
-
Purdy thang.. :thumb:
-
that bike looks really really good
well done!
-
Looks Fantastic
-
Very Nice!
-
If you're jetting a LM1000 with 40 phm's, this will save you lots of time and work much better than any recipe with a K19 needle.
K4 needle, bottom clip
128 mains
68 idle
50/3 slide
265 atomizers
adjust mains + or - 1 size and needle up or down 1 position depending on your bike and altitude. midrange throttle will be night and day better. I post this recipe every few years.
And that huge lean section on your dyno result is a dynamic effect from vacuum drop when whacking open those huge carbs...dont get distracted by that- just look at steady state effects you can jack acc pumps way up to try to compensate but a little throttle control in real world riding is the best solution.
-
Hi, Ed..
The Kid's 1100 Spot had some ridiculous 168 or something like that when he got it. It wouldn't run at all at WFO. I mentioned you used a much smaller main. He's down to a 130, and it runs fine, now. :smiley:
-
Your bike looks great, better than new.
-
Ssoooo.... I finally got around to adding up the receipts for this thing. My guess was pretty accurate, fortunately.
Not including bodywork and paint (traded for labor)
$9891 and of course some consumables and pocket-washed local receipts from the hardware. So $10k.
Totally worth it.
-
WOW :bow: :bow: :bow:
It looks fantastic, and from your posts I see that a major increase in performance has been gained as well!
No easy task.
-
What a fantastic result. I am interested in where your torque and HP curves and totals look like when you get the jetting right. These motors seem to always perform much better on the real world than the dyno shows.
-
69 rwhp isn't a bad start at all. That's probably a good 80 at the engine.
-
One thing I forgot to update, that is important to me- the rear brakes. I de-linked my brakes, and since the stock rear master cylinder only runs half as many calipers, it was stiff and weak. I didn't care too much, since I'm a front brake kinda guy. But for the rebuild, I wanted them to work properly. The answer, it turned out, was pretty simple.
I did a lot of searching and researching, and almost by accident I discovered that a V50 front brake uses a cable to operate the front master via a lever. The master cylinder is the same physical dimensions as the rear on the LMIV, but has a smaller bore. All I did was find a good used V50 master on eBay and swap on my stock LM lever for the correct linkage. Bam. It's awesome.
-
One thing I forgot to update, that is important to me- the rear brakes. I de-linked my brakes, and since the stock rear master cylinder only runs half as many calipers, it was stiff and weak. I didn't care too much, since I'm a front brake kinda guy. But for the rebuild, I wanted them to work properly. The answer, it turned out, was pretty simple.
I did a lot of searching and researching, and almost by accident I discovered that a V50 front brake uses a cable to operate the front master via a lever. The master cylinder is the same physical dimensions as the rear on the LMIV, but has a smaller bore. All I did was find a good used V50 master on eBay and swap on my stock LM lever for the correct linkage. Bam. It's awesome.
When the spineys came out, there was a hue and cry about using the small block caliper on the rear rotor.. :smiley:
-
If you're jetting a LM1000 with 40 phm's, this will save you lots of time and work much better than any recipe with a K19 needle.
K4 needle, bottom clip
128 mains
68 idle
50/3 slide
265 atomizers
adjust mains + or - 1 size and needle up or down 1 position depending on your bike and altitude. midrange throttle will be night and day better. I post this recipe every few years.
And that huge lean section on your dyno result is a dynamic effect from vacuum drop when whacking open those huge carbs...dont get distracted by that- just look at steady state effects you can jack acc pumps way up to try to compensate but a little throttle control in real world riding is the best solution.
May be headed back to 265 atomizers... here's what is in it now, driving better than ever.
After a 400 mile weekend and a 100 mile weekend, plug reviews and very good riding weather-
138 Mains
268 atomizers
50/3 slides
k19 needle full lean (thought I had k4 but have two sets of k19s)
45 pilots
closed pumps
Plugs are white inside, dark tips; just a touch of rich burble at cracked throttle cruise. Idle screws only about 1/4 turn out. Drives awesome, got 50+ mpg with fast x-way and 45-65mph cruising. That's about 8mpg better than average when it was stock.
I've installed 42 pilots, and on the stand now it wants 1-1/2 turns out at idle and response sounds ok; we'll see after a test ride how it drives. Still have the pumps off.
I'm probably going to ride back up to Daytona next weekend, we'll see how it goes.
-
moved to builds.
-
May be headed back to 265 atomizers... here's what is in it now, driving better than ever.
After a 400 mile weekend and a 100 mile weekend, plug reviews and very good riding weather-
138 Mains
268 atomizers
50/3 slides
k19 needle full lean (thought I had k4 but have two sets of k19s)
45 pilots
closed pumps
Plugs are white inside, dark tips; just a touch of rich burble at cracked throttle cruise. Idle screws only about 1/4 turn out. Drives awesome, got 50+ mpg with fast x-way and 45-65mph cruising. That's about 8mpg better than average when it was stock.
I've installed 42 pilots, and on the stand now it wants 1-1/2 turns out at idle and response sounds ok; we'll see after a test ride how it drives. Still have the pumps off.
I'm probably going to ride back up to Daytona next weekend, we'll see how it goes.
Nice post - your choice of pilot jet is really surprising to me.
I run a SP1000 with 36mm and I have issues with the engine starving and popping lean with 60pilots and screw 3˝ turn out.
I'm currently trying 65 out and have a set of 70 pilots on order. Other jets are 140main, K18 needle 2nd clip and AR268 atomizers.
The only explanation I can come up with is your engine sucks way better than mine during idle?
-
Nice post - your choice of pilot jet is really surprising to me.
I run a SP1000 with 36mm and I have issues with the engine starving and popping lean with 60pilots and screw 3� turn out.
I'm currently trying 65 out and have a set of 70 pilots on order. Other jets are 140main, K18 needle 2nd clip and AR268 atomizers.
The only explanation I can come up with is your engine sucks way better than mine during idle?
Yes, I'm certain it's a function of the Web 86b camshaft, a little more compression, and an outstanding port/valve job by RHC engineering.
After a couple thousand miles, I'm certain the pilot needs to be one size smaller, probably the needle jet as well. I need to find a set of stock slides, which are leaner, to test. Even though I'm getting 50mpg highway, the plugs are still darker than they should be and it mutters a little at 2200-3000 at slower speeds. Still haven't got back to the dyno for the mains, either, and have not changed the ignition timing from stock.
-
Well, getting back at it.
My wife passed away, as explanation. Thank you for your concern in advance.
So where this was left, the tuning phase revealed a couple things; though the valve guides are in good shape, there is so much more manifold vacuum that too much oil was being drawn into the engine (probably coupled with the high-volume oil pump sending more upstairs as well) and on the dyno, the valve train lost control around 7000 RPM, even with the R&D titanium retainer spring set. So I've fitted valve seals, which required shortening the already short guides, but only .050". I used Chrysler seals, easy to buy the cutter and cheap seals. I fitted PAC single beehive valve springs, sized for Ford Modular engines under PAC titanium retainers, considerably lightening the spring assembly as well. Spring pressure installed is 110# seat and about 275# open. That's a lot, but a couple thousand miles on the R&D set shows a perfect pattern and zero concern between the Web cam and Ford lifters. I gave it new valves as well, considering the age and abuse the stockers had on them. As long as the cam doesn't break in half it should be great, and get RPM up to 8000 with a safety cushion and take full advantage of the cam's specs.
Back to tuning.
(https://i.ibb.co/DpwSF74/f-F3-Iz-T-o5jh-Yt-Sj-HRDLJirr-Pen-Ho6-CGw-Buj-Eu6-O1y-qk5eo6fb-Z5-ZLPUpu-Zzmswt19-XQk-S2-Iy-Wz-M3h4-QGf4-M-45c-Pt-Dr-Iej7tb-DZ90-Cu-KRrd-Qb-GDUw4-Ch-G6-TTA0-LDY2vqx-i-DAOp-PYg-w600-h315-p-k.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DpwSF74)
-
sorry to read your loss.