Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kev m on February 26, 2013, 11:27:06 AM
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So,
I'm finally getting around to performing the break-in service on the Stone.
Went for a chilly spin yesterday, then came home and drained fluids.
This morning I snuck out to the shop for a little while to finish that portion of the service and install my Ed Milich Sump Spacer!
First thing I noticed was DANG that's a tiny little sump - really glad I got the spacer (despite the fact that it really didn't burn any oil during break-in).
SUMP SPACER INSTALLATION
Applied a coat of anti-seize to the new gaskets (as directed by Ed) and went to install sump/spacer.
One word of warning to anyone doing this, make sure you gently start all the bolts before tightening any of them. I originally started by threading and snugging the corner bolts to hang the spacer/sump assembly tight against the block, but after I got all but 2 bolts started (both on the middle of the same side) it felt like the bolts were binding. So I had to unthread the other 10 bolts and play with the sump/spacer alignment in order to safely thread all the bolts.
In the end it worked better for the sump to be hanging at the tips of the threads of the corner bolts in order to allow me to safely thread those last two. Once everything was started, I held the sump/spacer tight against the block, ran the bolts up snug and torqued em down.
SMALL BLOCK OIL CHANGE
I'm really looking forward to future oil changes on this thing (as oppossed to dropping the sump on my old Jackal). Should be a breeze.
The two drain plugs are kinda funny, but it looks like it is best to actually pull them both to make sure you get as much out of there as possible. At least that's what it looked like from the inside. The front plug can't drain the sump fully, and the rear plug would actually leave some dirty oil in some galleys/passageways that the front plug drains. Guess that's why they did it.
Some totally NEWBIE questions for you smallblock guys regarding the oil filter.
1. How often do you guys replace that O-ring? (It looks like I should keep a spare on hand, but it probably lasts many changes - yes?)
2. Is that a crush washer on the oil filter bolt? (I didn't get any crush washers that match that size in the supplies I picked up for this service so I reused it this time, but do you guys usually replace that?)
Next it's on to cylinder head retorquing and valve clearance adjustment.
HEAD BOLTS
Head bolts - I've got notes that say 32 ft. lbs. for the 4 large fasteners and 22 ft. lbs. for the small center nut.
EDIT - Guzziology (my copy is 2007 and may be a bit long in the tooth now - says 29-30 ft. lbs for the 4 10mm nuts and 20-21 ft. lbs. for the 8mm nut).
I can't confirm these with either the V7 Stone/Special/Racer or the previous V7 Classic manuals as no torque values are given for those fasteners in either. It's a one shot thing so I assume most of you guys won't remember, but if anyone has an additional reasource (oh, I'll check Guzziology when I'm done here).
VALVE CLEARANCE
As for Valve Clerance - I assume there are timing marks under that rubber cover at the top front right side of the transmission housing and a crankshaft nut I can access under the plastic front cover that I can use to slowly turn the crankshaft while aligning marks and watching the valves?
Gonna set em to 006" and 008" as it lists in the manuals - unless you guys know better? EDIT - Guzziology seems to agree with these settings
CLUTCH ADJUSTMENT
It's been my experience (on a number of dealer demos) that the Clutch is often set-up from the factory (or ham-fisted prep techs) with too much freeplay. This puts the friction zone right near the grips and can prevent you from fully disengaging the clutch when you pull in on the lever - which in turn can lead to a bike that is tough to get into neutral or even shift in/out of First at a stop.
I can't seem to find any factory specs for free-play - not in any of the manuals (owners or service) or Guzziology. I've heard numbers like 3mm and 5mm of play at the lever batted around. Any thoughts on this? I'm likely going to try and move my friction zone out a little bit (mine was set-up pretty well, certainly not as bad as the 2 different demos, from 2 different dealers, that I had to pull over during the demo ride and adjust it from the saddle). But I'd still like a tiny bit less freeplay than what they set-up. I guess I'll use 5mm as a target unless I hear otherwise.
Appreciate any input before I screw something up.
Kev
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OK, I added some additional topics to this thread. Both asking questions and giving my own feedback. Perhaps we can make it a resource for others who are about to perform their first services on new V7s...
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Kev,
No experience with the SB, but there was no need to retourqe head bolts on my '09 Vintage due to different head gaskets used. Does your Stone call for a retorque in the manual?
Cam
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So,
I'm finally getting around to performing the break-in service on the Stone.
Went for a chilly spin yesterday, then came home and drained fluids.
This morning I snuck out to the shop for a little while to finish that portion of the service and install my Ed Milich Sump Spacer!
First thing I noticed was DANG that's a tiny little sump - really glad I got the spacer (despite the fact that it really didn't burn any oil during break-in).
SUMP SPACER INSTALLATION
Applied a coat of anti-seize to the new gaskets (as directed by Ed) and went to install sump/spacer.
One word of warning to anyone doing this, make sure you gently start all the bolts before tightening any of them. I originally started by threading and snugging the corner bolts to hang the spacer/sump assembly tight against the block, but after I got all but 2 bolts started (both on the middle of the same side) it felt like the bolts were binding. So I had to unthread the other 10 bolts and play with the sump/spacer alignment in order to safely thread all the bolts.
In the end it worked better for the sump to be hanging at the tips of the threads of the corner bolts in order to allow me to safely thread those last two. Once everything was started, I held the sump/spacer tight against the block, ran the bolts up snug and torqued em down.
SMALL BLOCK OIL CHANGE
I'm really looking forward to future oil changes on this thing (as oppossed to dropping the sump on my old Jackal). Should be a breeze.
The two drain plugs are kinda funny, but it looks like it is best to actually pull them both to make sure you get as much out of there as possible. At least that's what it looked like from the inside. The front plug can't drain the sump fully, and the rear plug would actually leave some dirty oil in some galleys/passageways that the front plug drains. Guess that's why they did it.
Some totally NEWBIE questions for you smallblock guys regarding the oil filter.
1. How often do you guys replace that O-ring? (It looks like I should keep a spare on hand, but it probably lasts many changes - yes?)I keep a couple on hand. When its torn or distorted i'll replace
2. Is that a crush washer on the oil filter bolt? (I didn't get any crush washers that match that size in the supplies I picked up for this service so I reused it this time, but do you guys usually replace that?) Yes, I believe the same crush washer as the rear drive and transmission ventfont]
Next it's on to cylinder head retorquing and valve clearance adjustment.
HEAD BOLTS
Head bolts - I've got notes that say 32 ft. lbs. for the 4 large fasteners and 22 ft. lbs. for the small center nut.
EDIT - Guzziology (my copy is 2007 and may be a bit long in the tooth now - says 29-30 ft. lbs for the 4 10mm nuts and 20-21 ft. lbs. for the 8mm nut). I went with 30 ft. lbs & 21 ft. lbs
I can't confirm these with either the V7 Stone/Special/Racer or the previous V7 Classic manuals as no torque values are given for those fasteners in either. It's a one shot thing so I assume most of you guys won't remember, but if anyone has an additional reasource (oh, I'll check Guzziology when I'm done here).
VALVE CLEARANCE
As for Valve Clerance - I assume there are timing marks under that rubber cover at the top front right side of the transmission housing and a crankshaft nut I can access under the plastic front cover that I can use to slowly turn the crankshaft while aligning marks and watching the valves? If you are talking about the rubber plug on the right side about 4 inches forward ot the transmission fill plug, there is nothing there. Pull the spark plug and insert a clean drinking straw into the plug opening. With the front cover removed use the proper socket on the end of the crank and rotate until TDC is found on the compression stroke. You will be on the compression stroke when the piston is TDC both exhaust and intake valves will have a small amount of movement.
Gonna set em to 006" and 008" as it lists in the manuals - unless you guys know better? EDIT - Guzziology seems to agree with these settings ;-T or .010 & .015 using metric values
CLUTCH ADJUSTMENT
It's been my experience (on a number of dealer demos) that the Clutch is often set-up from the factory (or ham-fisted prep techs) with too much freeplay. This puts the friction zone right near the grips and can prevent you from fully disengaging the clutch when you pull in on the lever - which in turn can lead to a bike that is tough to get into neutral or even shift in/out of First at a stop.
I can't seem to find any factory specs for free-play - not in any of the manuals (owners or service) or Guzziology. I've heard numbers like 3mm and 5mm of play at the lever batted around. Any thoughts on this? I'm likely going to try and move my friction zone out a little bit (mine was set-up pretty well, certainly not as bad as the 2 different demos, from 2 different dealers, that I had to pull over during the demo ride and adjust it from the saddle). But I'd still like a tiny bit less freeplay than what they set-up. I guess I'll use 5mm as a target unless I hear otherwise. I have about 1/8" of freeplay. I have found the cable operated clutch engauges much sooner than all my hydraulic clutches
Appreciate any input before I screw something up.
Kev
As far as crush washers and o-rings. When I order filters or parts from MG Cycles I always order extra tidbits to have on hand. I keep a three ring binder with clear plactic sleeves labeled with extra gaskets, o-rings, crush washers etc. It keeps everythign together and the gaskets don't. get bent up.
I suggest a sump gasket, two valve cover gaskets, two filter o-rings, 3 or 4 oil drain bolt(s) crush washers, a couple crush washers for the drive/transmission vent or if you get in a bind and need one of these gaskets while serviceing your bike I can have it in Harrisburg for you or Jay to pick up the next day.
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good thread, I will be using for my 1st service if the snow ever melts.
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Cam - yes, both the V7C and V7 Stone/Special/Racer service manuals and owners manuals call for the retorque. Both Pete and Steve perform this at break-in for smallblocks they service. And Pete says it was emphasized in a TSB and in service training in recent years. All despite how rare such things are for other models, brands, or types of motors these days.
Perazz -thanks. I just got a package of supplies, including 2 sets of valve cover gaskets, three oil filters, air filter, second sump gasket (spacer came with one), and 3 sets of crush washers. But it looks like the oil filter o-ring and crush washers were overlooked. I'll get them next order and reused them this time.
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Be careful how tight you take the filter bolt. My recollection is that you take it to a tight snug. It seems there is a gap beneath the washer that when over tightened will detent the washer into a cavity and it will leak and need replacing. I simply found a snug fit to be best. If it leaks a little tighten it further until it stops, but error on the too loose side. I always error on the side of too loose with these bolts and watch for slight drips off the heads. I snug up a bit more if I do see oil. No stripped threads this way. Don't think we've ever needed to replace the O-ring. 8 years and running.
Turn the nut up front for valve clearances. Easy bike to work on for sure. Yours is even easier with the airbox where it is.
-Kevin
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I wrote some guides for servicing the V7 series.
For head torque: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/sets/72157627672086548/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/sets/72157627672086548/)
For transmission oil change: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/sets/72157626993357143/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/sets/72157626993357143/)
For spline lubrication: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/sets/72157625569987011/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/sets/72157625569987011/)
For brake fluid change: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/sets/72157625625067451/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/sets/72157625625067451/)
Next is brake pad change, but every time I get ready to make the guide the Ms. finds "something important" for me to do.
As if anything could be more important than brakes.
I also recommend the Files and Links page of the Yahoo group http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/MG_750/ (http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/MG_750/) , which is full of Guzzi 750 repair articles.
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The two drain plugs are kinda funny, but it looks like it is best to actually pull them both to make sure you get as much out of there as possible.
Uh...... is the two drain plugs thing new with the new engine, or does mine have them too? I didn't know there were two, and only removed one. :-[
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Uh...... is the two drain plugs thing new with the new engine, or does mine have them too? I didn't know there were two, and only removed one. :-[
All smallblocks have two. One at the front, one at the back. Front is I think 19 mm rear is 17. You need to remove both to completely drain the sump.
Do NOT over tighten the oil filter plate bolt. The cover is simply an aluminium plate and is unsupported in the middle. If you just keep on cranking it down it will crack and you will need to buy a new one.
Pete
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As long as you realise that I'm a heretic and not going to Guzzi heaven I'll continue. :BEER:
Crush washers. Yes they are. Get new ones, re-anneal or if I'm feeling particularly lazy I stick some Loctite 518 on each side and just re-use. I have a centre stand so the bike leans forward. I only ever drain with the large 22mm AF plug at the front. I simply can't be bothered with the thimble of oil I'd get from the rear.
Sump spacer. I'll never bother with one. Yes I know, my 32 year old Monza is probably about to have a catastrophic failure any decade now and it will be all my fault. :BEER: If you do a quick measure you will find the height of the oil above the pick up is about the same as a big Tonti with a spacer and much higher than any of the round fins. Look up and you will see that the block casting has a web that minimises windage too.
add the litre of oil in the gearbox and you have 3L, the same as in a Yammie 1100.
I cannot fathom why you would want to use a gasket and grease both joins. I would simply glue the spacer to the sump with some form of RTV goop whilst it is on the bench. I'd use the bolts for alignment and whilst it is there, in full view, I'd ensure all the excess is removed and galleries clear. From that time on the sump/spacer would be one piece. ;-T I'd then only need one gasket and grease one face. I'd even RTV the top gasket to the top of the spacer so it wouldn't slide around too. One join, one parting face, less effort. This is what I have done to my LM III that comes with a spacer. now it is just one piece and filter replacement is easier.
Valve clearances. The metric of 6 and 8 thou" is 0.15mm and 0.20mm not what was given above. The tighter tolerances were originally recommended by Guzzi but after a series of valve failures they were increased to what you set and what I've provided.
Filter o-ring. I've got a spare but never needed it. I just do the plate up by feel. I always oil the o-ring before re-assembly.
Re-torquing heads. Yes, yes, yes. I've got an old manual around here somewhere that lists this in periodic maintenenace. Every 20,000km from memory after initial run in. Funnily it isn't included in all the other manuals I have. ::) I can't remember the Kgm but it is in the manual somewhere.
Timing. For all your static and TDC timing needs just assume 4 degrees per tooth on the flywheel. That is one up and one down makes 4 degrees. Once you find TDC then static advance is easy.
Clutch. Yes you need a little slack. Forget the mm's. If the gears are hard to change on the move or it doesn't like going into neutral when stationary tighten the cable a tad. Keep doing that until it does.
Cheers
Rod
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Some tips I got emailed from GuzziSteve late last night - I'd like to add to the thread for those who use this as a reference in the future:
Emphasis mine:
Head bolts should be backed off 1/8-1/4 turn before re-torque, and I go to 33ftlbs on the 4 big ones and 23ftlbs. When you back them off you may hear them pop a bit, that is normal. I have seen them leak at 30-32ftlbs.
I just like things tight, and it's not too tight. On the BB motors I go 35, been doing that since the New World motor came out in 93. I know the newest SB like yours has a bead on both sides of the head gasket made of silicone. You may want to set the wrench at 25ftlbs first and so around in a criss cross pattern first before the final torque
Oil filter cover oring clean up and I use Dow Corning Molykote #55 O-Ring grease and put it back on cover facing the same way you took it off, cause one side will have a flat and one side will have an angle on it. You won't need a new one for 25Kmi.
The crush washer on the main bolt through the cover will mash up if you torque it to 18ftlbs, I go 11 or 12ftlbs and haven't had one leak. If you look at the crush washer it is still flat from factory, they don't tighten them tight either. The older SB's had thicker crush washers to take 25nm, not now days
For the record, mine was a bit "mashed up" from the factory, but I reused it, as that's all I had. Will check this morning if it is still sealed. Worse case scenario, I'll get my hands on a replacement and swap them out with a second set of hands so someone can play little dutch boy and put their finger over the hole while the bolt is out. :D
THANKS Steve - also Thanks Pete, Kevd, Sign, and Morizzi for your contributions.
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Because I can't leave things alone
Crush washers. Yes they are. Get new ones, re-anneal or if I'm feeling particularly lazy I stick some Loctite 518 on each side and just re-use. I have a centre stand so the bike leans forward. I only ever drain with the large 22mm AF plug at the front. I simply can't be bothered with the thimble of oil I'd get from the rear.
Sump spacer. I'll never bother with one. Yes I know, my 32 year old Monza is probably about to have a catastrophic failure any decade now and it will be all my fault. :BEER: If you do a quick measure you will find the height of the oil above the pick up is about the same as a big Tonti with a spacer and much higher than any of the round fins. Look up and you will see that the block casting has a web that minimises windage too.
I cannot fathom why you would want to use a gasket and grease both joins.
Valve clearances. The metric of 6 and 8 thou" is 0.15mm and 0.20mm not what was given above.
Re-torquing heads. Yes, yes, yes. I've got an old manual around here somewhere that lists this in periodic maintenenace. Every 20,000km from memory after initial run in. Funnily it isn't included in all the other manuals I have. ::) I can't remember the Kgm but it is in the manual somewhere.
Drain plugs - I only used the front plug this time, because I was dropping the sump. But it was quite obvious to me once I dropped the sump that there was well more than a thimble's worth of oil. Yes, it was only a fraction of a liter, but definitely a good couple of ounces. I think I'll use both drain plugs from now own.
Spacer - the extra capacity gives me the warm and fuzzies. That said, my experience with a big block Cali suggests we're talking apples and oranges here. I mean the big block sump is dramatically larger (longer/wider - meaning greater surface area) in the first place. So even if the "height of the oil above the pick up" is the same, the area/volume of oil above the pick up is not. No?
Gaskets - I coat both sides of gaskets when I want NEITHER side to stick (should I ever need to take it apart again, I'm happy to know that I shouldn't have to scrape either side). Related story, the ONLY time I ever let someone else touch my B11 it was FBF (they were chasing down the pinging problem and wanted to reset the valves). Well, I should have known. They installed new valve cover gaskets, DRY ON BOTH SIDES, and they stuck HORRIBLY to the cylinder heads and came apart in little pieces. Took a good hour or more to scrape up the little bits (and keep them out of the motor). So I probably would have coated both sides, of both sump gaskets, EVEN IF ED MILICH HADN'T SPECIFICALLY DIRECTED IT IN HIS INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS. That said, I do often only coat the head side of Valve Cover gaskets, purposely so that they stick to/come off with the valve cover.
Valve Clearance - ??? What am I missing - who said something other than 6 and 8 thou" ?
Head Retorque - You RE-REtorque every 20km? Really? Is there anyone else who does that? For all the V7 materials I've looked at nothing says to do anytime again after the break-in service.
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One re-torque after new and you're good for many thousands of miles. Just like the BB. Somebody is getting a little over touchy feely with their SB.
-Kevin
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It's my understanding that big blocks haven't needed any retorque of the heads (at any time, break-in or otherwise) in many years (decade or more).
That is much like the vast majority of motors out there these days, from bikes to cars, trucks, outboards etc. There may be an exception, like the SB, but still.
I certainly am skeptical that it would even need it again after break-in, but I'm willing to listen if there's a reason.
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So Break-In Service is almost done.
Got the heads retorqued and the valves adjusted.
TIPS for Head Retorque or Valve Adjustment
A month or two ago I remember Steve noting that he'd unbolted and tilted the tank on a new V7 "for more access" and didn't realize until today why that was the case.
Seems that there are two oil mist/breather hoses running from the airbox to the top, center, backside of each valve cover. There isn't a whole lot of clearance between the spring-clamps used to retain those hoses on the valve cover fittings and the tank. YOU CAN get a pair of needle-nose pliers or hemostats in there, BUT if when pulling the hose/valve cover free of each other you slip at all you'll wish you'd tilted the tank (as I wish now that I have a small chip out of my white paint - luckily it has already been touched up by Jenn - thanks Luv - and is pretty much hidden by the valve cover when the tank and cover are installed).
Edit - upon closer examination I find that I did not chip my paint, it was rubbed off by the right side spark plug wire. Loos like I'll have to figure out a way to hold it down, away from the tank there. I can see white rub marks on the wire. Still a good idea to tilt tank to be safe though.
SO TIP #1 - unbolt rear of tank, and lift up carefully, propping it up with a wooden 2x4 block or the like. The additional room will make it easier to access that hose and hopefully prevent you from chipping your paint.
Tip #2 - the breather hoses may run over a small bracket hanging from the frame in the center of the cylinder valley. If so, reach in and free the hose from the bracket to give yourself a little more play. In this way you can move the whole cover (hose still attached) away from the tank and cylinder body for better access to that hose.
Tip #3 - turns out there are 6 valve covers bolts - the 4 obvious ones, and two in bores at the center (under that spark plug cover). The 2 in the bores are really going to need a hex key that is a couple of inches long. A key or t-handle may do it if you've got enough leverage on it, but I'm probably going to pick up a long hex bit socket for future service. I believe the size is 5mm.
Tip #4 - the 4 exposed valve cover bolts have some sealing washers (that look like copper). I'm not sure if they are crush washers, but I've reused them. They don't sit snug on the bolt shafts, so you may wish to use a dab of engine oil (or grease) to hold them in position on the valve cover when threading the bolts. Otherwise they'll fall off-center and hang from the bolt shaft (which might not be helpful when it comes to providing any seal.
I'm happy to say the smallblock adjusters have slots to receive a screwdriver. That's much nicer than the bigblock adjusters which have tabs that must be held awkwardly by pliers or using a special valve adjustment tool.
I was quite suprised to see my vavles had tightene up QUITE A BIT. I couldn't even pass an 0.005" feeler gauge between any of the rockers and valve stems.
I didn't find ANY timing marks on the flywheel - but I treble-checked that I had TDC each time (by watching both piston height using a chop stick, and the valve action - waiting for the piston to come up to TDC compression right after the intake valve closed). So I made made my own marks both on the front of the crankshaft/engine casing, and on the flywheel. Should make for an easier time next adjustment.
Speaking of the front engine cover - HOLY CRAP those bolts were Loctited in place something feirce. And, here's a really odd thing, ONE of them is bent - leaving for the local hardware store to see if I can find a replacement. I guess the threadlocker was so that the bolts could be only lightly tightened against the plastic covers without fear of them loosening. I had fear that I was going to back out aluminum threads from the block they were so tight.
Pete had previously told me that the head bolts always seemed tighter to him from the factory than when he reset them, but I would swear that was not the case with this motor (assuming my Snap-On low-range Ft. Lbs. torque wrench is anywhere near proper calibration). They definitely felt tighter to me when I retorqued them than when I loosened them.
Oh, my clutch had maybe a little more freeplay than that magic 5mm number (wherever it comes from). Maybe it had 7mm or so at the lever. I took a little out as I wanted to move the friction zone slightly. It's set at about 5mm now, maybe maybe maybe 4mm. I'll check it on the test ride.
Now I just have to finish buttoning her back up and check all the accessible fasteners.
Life is good.
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Some totally NEWBIE questions for you smallblock guys regarding the oil filter.
1. How often do you guys replace that O-ring? (It looks like I should keep a spare on hand, but it probably lasts many changes - yes?)
2. Is that a crush washer on the oil filter bolt? (I didn't get any crush washers that match that size in the supplies I picked up for this service so I reused it this time, but do you guys usually replace that?)
1. Never did. Seems still fine after 10 yrs... What's a drop or two of oil between Rossinante & me? :D
2. No. The filter gaskets keep it tight.
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Thanks Pfaff.
So I finished up everything (but the transmission and rear drive oil changes, I'll take care of them as soon as I can get my hands on some 85W90 and 85W140 respectively).
I reset the maintenance light and took her for a test run.
I really think that the first couple of hundred miles made a huge difference in the way this bike felt (something to think about if someone is riding a demo). The motor feels much more willing to rev. Highway at 70-80 mph is no big deal (it felt hurried the first few times I tried those speeds). Now obviously I'm open to the fact that maybe what really changed was me (my perceptions as I got more comfortable with the nature of the bike), but I honestly think that it just plain loosened up and smoothed out a bit.
I'm very happy with this bike, in many ways moreso than I ever was with the Jackal or Breva.
Oh, hopefully Pete won't mind, but since I'm trying to make this thread a one-stop shop for new owners - here's the Maintenance Light Reset procedure he sent me sometime ago - it WORKED light a charm:
New dash is the same as the old one. When you gate the 'Maint' alert when you turn the key on all you have to,do from memory is turn the ignition off, wait for a few seconds and then press the left hand button and hold it down. Now turn the ignition back on and wait for the clocks to go through their dance and the word 'Maint' will appear briefly and then disappear.
Release the button, turn the ignition off and then on again and the 'Maint' warning should of disappeared. Sometimes, for no reason I can make out, you need to have the side stand up for it to work. Don't ask me? I only work here!
Though I'll add I THINK I forgot to put the side stand up and it worked anyway - go figure.
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I'm trying to make this thread a one-stop shop for new owners - here's the Maintenance Light Reset procedure he sent me sometime ago - it WORKED light a charm:
Though I'll add I THINK I forgot to put the side stand up and it worked anyway - go figure.
Kev,
Thanks a million for all the info and trying to help out the newbies (like myself....still waiting for the good weather so I can pick up my v7 stone in mid April)...although I am not "seasoned" to do a lot of the work that you are doing, I am learning and slowly will probably start to do some minor maintenance.
Also, a big shout out to all of the others helping out in this thread, and on the entire Forum for that matter! I am really confident that should I have any questions about my bike, I will be able to find the answer here!
Happy & Safe Riding to all...Cheers
Chris
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No doubt the engine will run better once well broken in......talking with one of the guys at AF1 that had just returned from 1400 school in Cal. "Don't care what anybody say's there is a different map that kicks in after x amount of breakin miles". I know that my Norge woke up after about 1,500 miles,not that it matters except that either way they do run sweeter with miles. Just thought it was an interesting statement which is possible with the eclectronic controls now on bikes. Anyone else heard this?
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No doubt the engine will run better once well broken in......talking with one of the guys at AF1 that had just returned from 1400 school in Cal. "Don't care what anybody say's there is a different map that kicks in after x amount of breakin miles". I know that my Norge woke up after about 1,500 miles,not that it matters except that either way they do run sweeter with miles. Just thought it was an interesting statement which is possible with the eclectronic controls now on bikes. Anyone else heard this?
IF that was true, I would think that the Ducati Diag/Guzzidiag guys would have found it in the mapping tables.
Of course it is possible, but I SUSPECT the truth is that is a result of:
a. Perception - like I said earlier, WE get used to the bike and think about it differently as the miles go up. We feel more things we didn't notice earlier because our senses were overwhelmed with the next experience of it.
b. Service - Resetting of electronic parameters (with a Norge, resetting the TPS and possibly balancing the throttle bodies) and resetting the valves etc. I mean, the valves on my V7 were hella tight, setting them back to spec ought to make some difference in how she is running.
c. Break-In - actual mechanical wear/loosening up.
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Also check you clear air box drain hose. If it has oil in it either the motor had to much oil in it and the extra pumped out. Or one of the vent hose from the heads is pinched. On my bike after every decent ride the drain hose would have a couple ounces of oil in it. When looking around I four a vent hose pinched. Gave it better placement and for the last couple thousand miles no oil in the air box/drain.
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Also check you clear air box drain hose. If it has oil in it either the motor had to much oil in it and the extra pumped out. Or one of the vent hose from the heads is pinched. On my bike after every decent ride the drain hose would have a couple ounces of oil in it. When looking around I four a vent hose pinched. Gave it better placement and for the last couple thousand miles no oil in the air box/drain.
Good tip - considering how very little (if any) oil was used during my break-in, I don't expect to find much. But I'll check.
First I have to FIND IT...
Here's an image I put together from a new V7(Stone/Special/Racer) parts manual.
(http://www.gigabikes.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10081/V7AirboxParts.jpg)
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Had a little black Stone in for its first service yesterday. Sticking the new map in it made a appreciable difference to not only its starting but its smoothness as well.
Really like the wheels!
Pete
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Had a little black Stone in for its first service yesterday. Sticking the new map in it made a appreciable difference to not only its starting but its smoothness as well.
Really like the wheels!
Pete
CRAP - am I going to have to go searching for a dealer to install a new map now... ::) (meh, I'm pretty happy with how smooth it's running, and it starts right up, I'm not gonna worry about it).
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Tip #3 - turns out there are 6 valve covers bolts - the 4 obvious ones, and two in bores at the center (under that spark plug cover). The 2 in the bores are really going to need a hex key that is a couple of inches long. A key or t-handle may do it if you've got enough leverage on it, but I'm probably going to pick up a long hex bit socket for future service. I believe the size is 5mm.
For those looking for a decent quality/but inexpensive long bit driver socket for the above tip - I went with Lowe's Kobalt sku # 86032 - Only $7.00 free in store pickup or just bring the Sku # to the store and have them order it. The whole bar code was 99198 86032 if they have any problems.
That sku # brings it up on their website here:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_338169-25428-86032_0__?Ntt=86032&UserSearch=86032&productId=3387552&rpp=32
The problem with their website (and they're a bunch of morons because I documented this for them and they obviously have not fixed it weeks later) is that when there are individual bits (and sometimes sockets) they don't list what the actual business end of the bit or socket is size wise (they list things like what size ratchet it fits like 1/4" or 3/8" or 1/2" but not what size bolt). How can you buy an individual socket or bit driver not knowing what size it works on? ??? Some of the complete sets don't list what sockets or bits come in the sets, hell they don't always even specify if they are even SAE or Metric sets.
After I contacted their website people with links and reports of the problems they contacted a local store and had the store guy call the manufacturer to find out the sku number and order the right one for me. ::) So hopefully I've saved the next guy the hassle.
As Cheap-Bastardo Guzzisti official recommendation, if $7 is still too rich for your blood, you can always just cut the right angle off a long 5mm hex key, then use the long part inserted into a 5mm socket for essentially the same result.
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I have a Kobalt that my buddy gave me as a X-mas present that is a screwdriver/ratchet set. Set it to loosen or tighten and simply turn the handle like a screwdriver and no matter which way you twist the handle it unscrews or screws the socket/screwdriver head. Slick and fast. A quick back and forth and your bolts are out before you know it. Some funny gearing in there. I have a bigger and smaller handle that came with mine. No leverage for real tightening, so break the seal or torque up with a real ratchet.
-Kevin
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BTW I was at the dealer last Saturday and they had two brand new V7 Stone's (white & black) waiting for prep. The black one had a set of Metzeler's and it appeared to have Olle' shocks. I couldn't quite tell on the shocks because it was backed up against a wall. The white Stone had the Pirelli's and Sachs.
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and resetting the valves etc. I mean, the valves on my V7 were hella tight, setting them back to spec ought to make some difference in how she is running.
Do you suppose it's telling you to torque the heads?
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Do you suppose it's telling you to torque the heads?
You talking to me?
Cause if so you must have missed a couple of parts of Post #15 (easily done as my posts probably tend to ramble on too long and bore too many - I wouldn't blame you in the slightest). I copied the relevant parts of post #15 for you to be sure:
So Break-In Service is almost done.
Got the heads retorqued and the valves adjusted.
TIPS for Head Retorque or Valve Adjustment
<snip>
Pete had previously told me that the head bolts always seemed tighter to him from the factory than when he reset them, but I would swear that was not the case with this motor (assuming my Snap-On low-range Ft. Lbs. torque wrench is anywhere near proper calibration). They definitely felt tighter to me when I retorqued them than when I loosened them.
Though, I appreciate the concern! ;-T ;-T ;-T
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Just wanted to chime in on the clutch discussion. The Stones ship with a lot of play in the lever, for whatever reason, and shops are supposed to tighten significantly for the initial prep. When done correctly there should be almost no play in the lever. I suspect this hasn't been done for a few folks, hence the concern with shifting a few people have reported. I don't have an exact number for tightening, but when I get mine spaced correctly I'll report back. Mine is close enough now though to confidently click through the gears, which it didn't do 'out of the box'.
One additional note is that it does seem to require a warm up period (on each ride) before it will shift correctly. It's cold here though so I'll have to see how that changes as we (finally, hopefully) see warmer weather.
Also just to confirm another comment on this thread, the black Stones ship with Metzeler Lazertechs and the white Stones ship with Pirelli Sport Demons (like the Racers). Not sure why the split within the same model.
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I am with Pfaff. I have yet to replace the O ring and gasket and it has yet to leak. I am VERY prudent with the tension on the bolt. Actually, I probably have a spare O ring but don't have a gasket. So far I have used the straw method to get TDC and get the back of the cam to set the clearances. Mine have always opened up, never closed up, and the right side always gets more loose than the left. ???
Always take the two sump bungs out. Had to by a special socket for one of them as it is obviously not a standard metric head that came with my Koken set. Got a cheapie socket set off our local Trademe site for about the same price as a single socket; It had the correct size in it and it also had 6 sided sockets in it which I like.
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I appreciate the additional input gentlemen. ;-T
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One additional note is that it does seem to require a warm up period (on each ride) before it will shift correctly. It's cold here though so I'll have to see how that changes as we (finally, hopefully) see warmer weather.
That'll improve as it breaks in.
Also just to confirm another comment on this thread, the black Stones ship with Metzeler Lazertechs and the white Stones ship with Pirelli Sport Demons (like the Racers). Not sure why the split within the same model.
Hmmmm ???
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That'll improve as it breaks in.Hmmmm ???
Hey JAY - check out my clutch thread - I forget - does YOURS RATTLE like a big block or is it silent like my Stone?
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Last week I had the alternator wires melt at the junction block. To run the additional ground wire to the rectifier/regulator I needed to remove the fuel tank. Anyway, I used to block the tank up with a piece of 2 X 4 wood, which was kind if in the way of the fuel line connector when disconnecting. So, a better idea struck me and it works better for me than the hunk of wood. I just reinstall the rear fuel tank bolt in its hole and let the fuel tank rest on the top of the bolt. This also eliminates the need to scrounge a piece of wood from somewhere if you need to remove the tank on the side of the road or something. A longer bolt would allow even more access also.
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Hey JAY - check out my clutch thread - I forget - does YOURS RATTLE like a big block or is it silent like my Stone?
Smallblocks rattle the smallblock way, NOT the big block way. ;)
Your V7 probably do rattle. Use earplugs and the "problem" is solved. :P
(I do ;D )
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Also check you clear air box drain hose. If it has oil in it either the motor had to much oil in it and the extra pumped out. Or one of the vent hose from the heads is pinched. On my bike after every decent ride the drain hose would have a couple ounces of oil in it. When looking around I four a vent hose pinched. Gave it better placement and for the last couple thousand miles no oil in the air box/drain.
So before this past weekend's little tour (out to western PA) I was checking out the V7 and looking for the breather lines and I THINK I might have discovered another difference between the 2TB and 1TB models.
I followed the breather lines to the air box, and the two oil drain lines from the box where they disappear behind the starter. Now it's tight back there and the are other hoses and cables back there, but it LOOKS like the breather drains attach to a T and then a single return line runs to the crankcase above the sump.
If I'm right in identifying these lines then it might help explain why the new smallblocks don't seem to lose oil like the old ones did when run at highway speeds for long periods. Because they are recovering any that is carried to the breathers. Though it would still have to be that it just isn't burning it either.
For instance just a little shy of 1k miles this weekend (and an entire day on the PA tpke today) with no oil usage.
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Hmmm, maybe I've got this all wrong - is that a one-way valve in the common crankcase line?
http://www.harpermoto.com/parts-by-motorcycle.html
http://www.harpermoto.com/parts-by-motorcycle/2010-2020-moto-guzzis/v7-special-stone-750-2012-2013/air-box-en-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20-21-22-23-24-25-26-27-28.html
(https://www.harpermoto.com/images/pl/2010/v7%20special%20-%20stone%20750%202012-2013/images/frame-air-box.jpg)
And there are breather filter elements in the air box - wonder if they are ever supposed to be replaced?
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Hey JAY - check out my clutch thread - I forget - does YOURS RATTLE like a big block or is it silent like my Stone?
I know this was asked a while ago, but just now saw it.
Yes, it rattles, just not quite as loud. Also, the Breva 1100 rattles with the clutch lever pulled, where the V7's rattles with the transmission in neutral and the clutch lever released (but not when pulled).
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I know this was asked a while ago, but just now saw it.
Yes, it rattles, just not quite as loud. Also, the Breva 1100 rattles with the clutch lever pulled, where the V7's rattles with the transmission in neutral and the clutch lever released (but not when pulled).
I would say it's totally different then :D
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Thanks for all the info. everyone...!
There's been a lot of discussion regarding service procedures and spec's. but what about fluid brand/type? I have a '13 V7R and Micheal Lee, the Guzzi CS rep. I spoke with (regarding my record kit), suggested staying with Agip Eni brand lubricants. Unfortunately, most dealers including the one and only MG dealer here in NC doesn't carry this brand. I'm sure with a bit of searching on the web I can source Eni but am wondering what most folks here on the forum recommend...?
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/2013%20V7R/IMG_0030_zpsa0cd3bb6.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/2013%20V7R/IMG_0030_zpsa0cd3bb6.jpg.html)
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I think that's cause there are way too many threads around here already discussing oils :D
For the record I stuck with AGIP for the motor, but bought something local for the gear oils.
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I think that's cause there are way too many threads around here already discussing oils :D
For the record I stuck with AGIP for the motor, but bought something local for the gear oils.
No, no, no Kev. No Agip anymore. It's ENI these days. ;)
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No, no, no Kev. No Agip anymore. It's ENI these days. ;)
Not if you still have a case of bottles labeled AGIP... :BEER:
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Not if you still have a case of bottles labeled AGIP... :BEER:
Oh! Late bottled vintage! Yessir!
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OK folks please don't shoot me...............
What weight oil goes in the motor of a 2013 V7 Stone?
I'm thinking about purchasing one.
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What weight oil goes in the motor of a 2013 V7 Stone?
10/60 is the recommendation, like I believe with ALL late-model Guzzis since the hydro Cali went away.
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My MAINT light came on more than a bit early (about 1500 miles early) according to the Maintenance Schedules for the 2012/2013 1TB models.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=64986.0
Not fully realizing the light was so early I pulled the bike in the shop yesterday to get the service done.
I'd already changed the engine oil early because Jay had needed to steal the oil filter cover. So I figured I just needed to do valves, trans/drive oils, lube some levers/cable ends, and check various things.
But to my surprise (see thread link) the 2013 maintenance schedule is a bit different from the earlier models and I may not have to do any of that yet.
I went ahead with the valves anyway and found them all a bit wide (maybe 002-003" wider than spec).
I also was glad I checked the spark plugs because they were WAY WIDE like 034-040" instead of 024-027" or so of the spec. MENTAL NOTE PEOPLE, check those plugs on the next service and maybe have spares at hand. I regapped them and will probably use them till the next service (as long as they don't start to miss in the meantime). But still, it's probably a good idea for me to buy a spare set now and have them handy for that reason (you all might want to do the same).
EDIT - just noticed the maintenance schedule actually says to REPLACE the SPARK PLUGS every 10,000km/6000miles - I'm SHOCKED, but THAT EXPLAINS IT. Maybe I'll get a set and throw them in by 6k.
I'm happy to report pulling the front cover was simple this time (thanks to replaced and/or cleaned bolts).
The timing marks I made on the alternator rotor and front of the motor were PERFECT - took me seconds to align each cylinder to TDC.
So life is good.
I just have to decide what maintenance schedule I'm going to follow here on out.
RIDE SAFE!
Kev
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Kev, did you notice that the labor times are lower for most services on the single TB units...as much as 30% lower? So, not only are the service intervals longer now but a shop visit should be less expensive. Heck, even the more expensive services are 130 minutes so basically two hours shop time. Throw in some parts cost and you can get away with about $250 for a dealer service. Sweet! Now I think back to my Ducati....
Peter Y.
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Kev, did you notice that the labor times are lower for most services on the single TB units...as much as 30% lower? So, not only are the service intervals longer now but a shop visit should be less expensive.
I hadn't compared them, but it makes sense both from an ease of service position (like the air cleaner that is easily accessed under the seat) to the fact that in some of those services they are doing less (like NOT changing the transmission/drive fluids).
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I'll confirm that there are different tires and shocks on the white and black V7 Stones. Also that the clutch cable ships too loose.
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I'll confirm that there are different tires and shocks on the white and black V7 Stones. Also that the clutch cable ships too loose.
oohh, tell me more...tell us more...
What tires? What shocks?
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My MAINT light came on more than a bit early (about 1500 miles early) according to the Maintenance Schedules for the 2012/2013 1TB models.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=64986.0
Not fully realizing the light was so early I pulled the bike in the shop yesterday to get the service done.
I'd already changed the engine oil early because Jay had needed to steal the oil filter cover. So I figured I just needed to do valves, trans/drive oils, lube some levers/cable ends, and check various things.
But to my surprise (see thread link) the 2013 maintenance schedule is a bit different from the earlier models and I may not have to do any of that yet.
I went ahead with the valves anyway and found them all a bit wide (maybe 002-003" wider than spec).
I also was glad I checked the spark plugs because they were WAY WIDE like 034-040" instead of 024-027" or so of the spec. MENTAL NOTE PEOPLE, check those plugs on the next service and maybe have spares at hand. I regapped them and will probably use them till the next service (as long as they don't start to miss in the meantime). But still, it's probably a good idea for me to buy a spare set now and have them handy for that reason (you all might want to do the same).
EDIT - just noticed the maintenance schedule actually says to REPLACE the SPARK PLUGS every 10,000km/6000miles - I'm SHOCKED, but THAT EXPLAINS IT. Maybe I'll get a set and throw them in by 6k.
I'm happy to report pulling the front cover was simple this time (thanks to replaced and/or cleaned bolts).
The timing marks I made on the alternator rotor and front of the motor were PERFECT - took me seconds to align each cylinder to TDC.
So life is good.
I just have to decide what maintenance schedule I'm going to follow here on out.
RIDE SAFE!
Kev
Finally got an opportunity to sneak out for a ride (first time on the V7 since I adjusted those valves).
:o :o :o
WOW, what a difference!
Now keep in mind the weather was about PERFECT, a crisp/cool 60F and beautiful dry sunny fall morning.
The bike just ran SPLENDID.
I have to wonder, could slightly wide valves been contributing to the cold start behavior??? (Just a SWAG because it didn't hunt/stumble/die this morning at all).
But then again, it was doing it before the first service when I found the valves all tight so I dunno ???
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Just bumping cause I like this photo... and cause I wanted to make sure people saw comments about valve adjustment and spark plugs.
RIDE SAFE ALL
(http://www.gigabikes.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10081/IMG_20130721_112548_339b.jpg)
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Just bumping cause I like this photo... and cause I wanted to make sure people saw comments about valve adjustment and spark plugs.
RIDE SAFE ALL
(http://www.gigabikes.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10081/IMG_20130721_112548_339b.jpg)
Nice pic!
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Hi,
I just performed my 600 mile service on my new 2013 V7 Special. I was pleased to encounter this post because there seems to be no official manuals available for this bike yet. This being my first Guzzi, I was (and am) excited to do the service myself. Since the service, the bike runs better than ever. Going into the service on a brand new bike without the official information was a bit sketchy, but I went with all the values listed in this thread, and like I said, the bike runs and feels even better. So I thought I'd share my experience.
1. Changed all fluids as suggested in the manual. No problem there. I replaced the crush washers as they were supplied with the APIG oils provided in the kits (I ordered the change-kits from AF1 Racing). Changing the oil filter was interesting- its nice how concealed it is but somewhat messy taking out -be prepared with lots of rags and clean off the oil pan thoroughly with Simple Green and clean rags after. Also, I fashioned a funnel with a plastic tube to fill the transmission and final drives and that worked great.
2. In adjusting the valves, I went with 006 & 008 as listed in this thread. All 4 valves were tight according to the tech I was working with -so we loosened them all slightly -but to 006 & 008. There were no torque values (that I could find) for the valve covers so I did that by feel -I wish I knew those, anyone have any info on that? -that said no leaks 4 days later.
I found it strange in removing the plastic front panel to turn the engine as lock-tite was used on those bolts. Not sure why this was done since removing this place is essential to move the piston. Any thoughts on that?
3. In re-torquing the heads both the tech and I were surprised on how loose they were. I don't have experience here but all the bolts were at different values so I went with 31 on the 4 main bolts and 21 on the center bolt. We felt confident as the bolts continued to tighten up but I'd say that they were all loose and some by 8# -again, a bit sketchy, I thought they all be tight or loose by 1 # or something.
4. I adjusted the clutch. It was too close to the grip and sometimes I wasn't convinced I was disengaged even when I pinned the lever against the grip. A lot better now.
My first bike was an EX 500 and I am thrilled with the new V7- I love the way its now running after this service. Thanks to everyone who wrote in on this thread. Very helpful!
-Nick
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I found it strange in removing the plastic front panel to turn the engine as lock-tite was used on those bolts. Not sure why this was done since removing this place is essential to move the piston. Any thoughts on that?
That lock-tite is there for a reason, as fasteners like to loosen up on these bikes. You should use a little blue lock-tite when putting those bolts back in. I use lock-tite on almost all fasteners on my Guzzis with the exception of any ny-lock type locknuts.
I've never actually pulled the front cover to turn the engine. I just remove the spark plugs, put the transmission into high gear and turn the rear wheel to turn the engine. I've done this on both my V7C and my Breva 1100.
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Hey Nick - welcome and glad to meet ya.
Let me try and answer what I can.
Answers in RED
Hi,
I just performed my 600 mile service on my new 2013 V7 Special. I was pleased to encounter this post because there seems to be no official manuals available for this bike yet. Actually, there are manuals available at least in PDF, you need the V7C manual for much of the motor and most of the basic chassis that didn't change, then you need the new Stone/Special/Racer manual for anything that is new to the 1TB models. I forget if Greg Bender's website or Guzzitech has them yet, but one of them should.
This being my first Guzzi, I was (and am) excited to do the service myself. Since the service, the bike runs better than ever. Going into the service on a brand new bike without the official information was a bit sketchy, FWIW the specs I used in this thread come from dealer techs who post here on WG. but I went with all the values listed in this thread, and like I said, the bike runs and feels even better. So I thought I'd share my experience.
1. Changed all fluids as suggested in the manual. No problem there. I replaced the crush washers as they were supplied with the APIG oils provided in the kits (I ordered the change-kits from AF1 Racing). Changing the oil filter was interesting- its nice how concealed it is but somewhat messy taking out -be prepared with lots of rags and clean off the oil pan thoroughly with Simple Green and clean rags after. Also, I fashioned a funnel with a plastic tube to fill the transmission and final drives and that worked great.
2. In adjusting the valves, I went with 006 & 008 as listed in this thread. All 4 valves were tight according to the tech I was working with -so we loosened them all slightly -but to 006 & 008. There were no torque values (that I could find) for the valve covers so I did that by feel -I wish I knew those, anyone have any info on that? -that said no leaks 4 days later. I've not bothered with torque values for things like the valve cover, or oil filter cover, ask JAS67 about the later, he used the value in the book and cracked the cover - either his torque wrench is out of calibration or the value is bad. Actually, I've always found that the method of technical information distribution used by the European manufacturers leaves a lot to be desired. I.E. they write a manual for a new bike or car, then years later write a new one once they have enough differences. And that can happen multiple times. Problem is that means you have to look at multiple ones each time to know you didn't miss a change, and WORST is that IF there is a change sometimes it either doesn't get documented or you can't get your hands on the update so you don't know about it. For instance I KNOW there are torque values in my Ducati 696 manual that disagree with the owner's manual. Problem is the tech manual was written in 2009 and my bike is a 2011 and I KNOW some of the fasteners changed. So I got out of the habit long ago of trying to get torque values for things like the valve cover, oil filter cover, drain plugs etc. I just grasp the head of the ratchet and snug.
I found it strange in removing the plastic front panel to turn the engine as lock-tite was used on those bolts. Not sure why this was done since removing this place is essential to move the piston. Any thoughts on that? Well, it's not ESSENTIAL to turning the motor, you CAN certainly lift it and turn the motor with the rear wheel, but I don't like that method personally and really prefer using the nut on the front of the crank. NO IDEA why they put threadlock THAT strong on those bolts. I wound up replacing two of them that bent under the force of loosening them. That said, I DON'T REMEMBER if I added threadlock to the new ones or not? almost 5k later none of them had loosened again though. Obviously there's no harm in using some blue/medium strength Loctite on them to be sure. If you didn't replace them I suspect the remnants of the old threadlock will probably keep them tight. But if you're unsure, no big deal, just check them after maybe 500 miles and 1000 miles to be sure.
3. In re-torquing the heads both the tech and I were surprised on how loose they were. I don't have experience here but all the bolts were at different values so I went with 31 on the 4 main bolts and 21 on the center bolt. We felt confident as the bolts continued to tighten up but I'd say that they were all loose and some by 8# -again, a bit sketchy, I thought they all be tight or loose by 1 # or something. (I can't remember now if Pete said he usually finds them loose or tight, but I THINK I remember whatever he said, I found the opposite :BEER: not that I was worried about it).
4. I adjusted the clutch. It was too close to the grip and sometimes I wasn't convinced I was disengaged even when I pinned the lever against the grip. A lot better now. That sounds familiar.
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That lock-tite is there for a reason, as fasteners like to loosen up on these bikes. You should use a little blue lock-tite when putting those bolts back in. I use lock-tite on almost all fasteners on my Guzzis with the exception of any ny-lock type locknuts.
I dunno man. Maybe there was a reason, but whatever they put on the 1TB front cover bolts was RIDICULOUS. I've never bent screws from threadlock before.
I would remove the front cover just to get to that stuff now before they cement themselves in forever.
I've never actually pulled the front cover to turn the engine. I just remove the spark plugs, put the transmission into high gear and turn the rear wheel to turn the engine. I've done this on both my V7C and my Breva 1100.
DUDE, on the Breva, there's a small plastic cover that pops out with access to the crankshaft nut. You don't even have to remove the cover.
AND, if memory serves, I probably made marks in Sharpie on the thing to help you find TDC.
I made marks like that on the crankshaft rotor fins and the front cover of the V7 Stone at first service and it took me seconds to find TDC using them this time around.
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DUDE, on the Breva, there's a small plastic cover that pops out with access to the crankshaft nut. You don't even have to remove the cover.
AND, if memory serves, I probably made marks in Sharpie on the thing to help you find TDC.
I'll have a look on the next service -- thanks. :BEER:
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Question
Why would my Maintenance indicator message activate at 4700 miles? I had the original break in service done at 600 miles and had an oil change done at 3000. Just replaced my rear tire (with the same Pirelli Sport Demon).
I am under the impression that my next routine service is at 6200 miles.
Just reset it myself.
EDIT
I see earlier in this thread this also happened to Kev m.
So which maintenance schedule is the appropriate one?
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Question
Why would my Maintenance indicator message activate at 4700 miles? I had the original break in service done at 600 miles and had an oil change done at 3000. Just replaced my rear tire (with the same Pirelli Sport Demon).
I am under the impression that my next routine service is at 6200 miles.
Just reset it myself.
EDIT
I see earlier in this thread this also happened to Kev m.
So which maintenance schedule is the appropriate one?
I would believe the maintenance SCHEDULE as there is no reason they would go through the trouble of changing both the owner's manual and service manual if they didn't mean it.
I suspect they just either FORGOT to reprogram the dashes, or just didn't bother (cost effectiveness - "not my problem, I'm not gonna see this dash again"). ::)
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Question
Why would my Maintenance indicator message activate at 4700 miles?
Just turned the miles figure in to Km's and it is close to 7500 km's. Italian/Continental yadda yadda ::). Could be Luigi figured that 7500 km's was a good round figure. Have no idea how Guzzi configure their dashes. We are in km's/centigrade over here and my dash is in miles and Fahrenheit. I can find no way to change the Breva dash. It does not have a service schedule pop up on it.
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I would believe the maintenance SCHEDULE as there is no reason they would go through the trouble of changing both the owner's manual and service manual if they didn't mean it.
I suspect they just either FORGOT to reprogram the dashes, or just didn't bother (cost effectiveness - "not my problem, I'm not gonna see this dash again"). ::)
Leaning towards the forgot. Since your bike along with mine are first gen 2013 model US single TB maybe they never got around to reprograming the early models. If so its f'ing amazing something like that would fall through the cracks.
???
Curious if anybody else has run into this issue. Especially those who took possession of their V7's more recently.
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Just turned the miles figure in to Km's and it is close to 7500 km's. Italian/Continental yadda yadda ::). Could be Luigi figured that 7500 km's was a good round figure. Have no idea how Guzzi configure their dashes. We are in km's/centigrade over here and my dash is in miles and Fahrenheit. I can find no way to change the Breva dash. It does not have a service schedule pop up on it.
Muzz, 7500 km / 4660 miles WAS the old maintenance schedule for the dual-throttle body V7Classic/Café/Racer models.
Starting with the new 1TB Stone/Special/Racer they revised the schedules significantly, including a change to a 10,000 km / 6200 miles.
See thread (I referenced earlier in this thread):
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=64986.0
specifically
Dual Throttle Body Models:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/goldscott/2012V7_zps0d37ae6f.png)
Single Throttle Body Models:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/goldscott/2013V7_zps14f89002.png)
Curious if anybody else has run into this issue. Especially those who took possession of their V7's more recently.
Yes, see above thread...
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Ahhhhhh clarity!!!
And on a lighter note as I approach the 5k mileage mark man has this V7 loosened up. It just gets easier and easier to ride.
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Ahhhhhh clarity!!!
And on a lighter note as I approach the 5k mileage mark man has this V7 loosened up. It just gets easier and easier to ride.
AGREED!!!
Liking it more than the day I brought it home.
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thanks Kev m & jas67 for those replies- I'm feeling better about the service now... and the bike speaks for itself the way its running. What a difference after 3 years on a EX 500 (not that I don't have love for my first bike!!) Looking forward to many miles, and doing all the service-
best,
Nick
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Interesting that Guzzi increased the miles between oil changes, from 7.5km to 10km, but decreased the miles between air filter changes (from 15km to 10km).
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Interesting that Guzzi increased the miles between oil changes, from 7.5km to 10km, but decreased the miles between air filter changes (from 15km to 10km).
Honestly, I ignored that (air cleaner).
Look at the gear/rear oil change intervals too.
Question, do you actually change spark plugs at EACH and EVERY service?
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Kev,
Do the air cleaner. It's free hp.
The new increased mileage on the final drive is too long. When I change that fluid I can see it's degraded. I've got a 2TB, so I'm sticking w those "old"
specs.
And...I change the plugs More Often, mainly because I'm doing a lot of plug chops to get the fueling right.
Joe
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HP from a new AC after 5k miles :D talk about RCHs.
I haven't made my mind up on the gear/trans oil, but I have no good reason to doubt the OEM.
Spark plugs were wide but otherwise fine.
I think I'll buy spares and change if there's any degrade in performance.
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Question, do you actually change spark plugs at EACH and EVERY service?
I have with my V7C, and will with my V7R. At least on the V7C, that after about 4,000 miles on a set of plugs, it ran like crap when it (the engine, not ambient temps was cold, and that new plugs "fixed it." And that was even with Irdidium plugs.
The new increased mileage on the final drive is too long. When I change that fluid I can see it's degraded. I've got a 2TB, so I'm sticking w those "old"
specs.
When I did the first service on my V7C at around 5,000 miles (600 mile service was done by the dealer for the previous owner), the final drive oil was almost silver colored -- I'm assuming aluminum content from the case ? :o :o
I did the second service just before 10,000 miles. The rear drive oil was black then. The transmission oil looked brand new both times. I'm almost inclined to follow the new intervals for the transmission, but not the rear drive. I'll at least do the rear drive every 10,000km along with the engine.
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I have with my V7C, and will with my V7R. At least on the V7C, that after about 4,000 miles on a set of plugs, it ran like crap when it (the engine, not ambient temps was cold, and that new plugs "fixed it." And that was even with Irdidium plugs.
See above - my plugs were surprisingly wide, but ran fine - I reinstalled them. But I'll pick up a spare set in case it starts to miss.
When I did the first service on my V7C at around 5,000 miles (600 mile service was done by the dealer for the previous owner), the final drive oil was almost silver colored -- I'm assuming aluminum content from the case ? :o :o
I did the second service just before 10,000 miles. The rear drive oil was black then. The transmission oil looked brand new both times. I'm almost inclined to follow the new intervals for the transmission, but not the rear drive. I'll at least do the rear drive every 10,000km along with the engine.
I noticed nothing out of the ordinary with my first service, I'll probably change the fluids again soon just to see how they look, but after that I may go with the OEM 20k km recs.
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FWIW when I had the front fork springs swapped out at around 3k miles (about 6 months old) the tech who did the work for me said the original fork oil was surprisingly filthy.
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Kev, from your pic it looks like you went ahead and removed the EVAP can?
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Kev, from your pic it looks like you went ahead and removed the EVAP can?
Nope, still there - just lost in the darkness. :D
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So, I have been using this thread as a rough guide for my 6,000 mile valve adjustment on my 2013 Stone. I let the dealer do the 600 mile checkup but it was a bit pricey so I'm hoping to do maintenance myself from here on out. Well, I ran into a couple of issues today I'm hoping to get some advice on.
First, regarding my mechanical abilities, I've changed oil more times than I can count on many bikes, I've installed various center stands, luggage racks, fuse blocks, etc. I've adjusted valves on my TU250 without issue. I've done a lot of reading on the forums and I think I know what needs to be done.
However, those bolts on the front cover are very tight. So tight, in fact that I broke two of them. I was very careful and turned them slowly (so I thought). Any advice on getting the other two out without breaking them? Also, there is this nagging question in the back of my mind, why didn't they break for the dealer? Is it possible that they got them out and after 4,400 miles they tightened back up so much that they won't come out without breaking? I don't want to think the dealer didn't check the valves but if they didn't remove the front cover then the only other way they could have found TDC would be to turn the rear wheel, correct? For that matter, how do they find it without markings? Do they use a straw as well?
In the meantime, I will figure out how to drill out the broken bolts and get replacements from Home Depot. And some anti-seize.
Next, I got the six bolts out to remove the valve cover but still couldn't get it off. Bear in mind, I had just broken the two bolts on the front cover so I wasn't inclined to try to force them off for fear of breaking something else. Do they stick? Can I pry them off with a screwdriver or something once the six bolts are removed?
I felt like I was so close to completing the job it's a little frustrating but I'd rather take the time to make sure I do it right.
On a positive note, it seems to run better with a new air filter, spark plugs and an oil change.
Any advice on removing the front cover bolts and valve cover would be appreciated.
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Are you talking about the front alternator cover? I can't believe the bolts here broke, especially on a newish bike.
For the valve covers, after removing the bolts feel free to knock them with a piece of wood. I'd avoid a screwdriver, as you might mar a surface.
Be sure to have replacement gaskets on hand.
Let me know which "front cover" you're talking about.
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I assume the dealer spun the motor over using the rear wheel instead of the crankshaft nut. Either that, or yeah, they didn't check it, but let's think positively. If you're suspicious you could call or stop by and ask the tech how he aligns it to TDC during valve clearance checks.
For extracting the other bolts, I'd run it up to normal operating temp and see if you can remove them hot. I would tell you to heat JUST the bolts, but the cover is plastic and it would be too easy to melt the plastic instead of just loosening the bolt threadlock.
I have no freakin' idea why they made the bolts so fricken hard to remove. As for the valve cover yes you CAN pry, but be VERY careful that you're not prying on something too thin/fragile and not sticking something into the gasket mating surface. Also MAKE DAMN WELL SURE you're got ALL the bolts out, so that includes the one in the deep bore under the spark plug guard.
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The alternator cover and spacer are plastic and tend to get a bit soft when hot which allows the bolts to fall out. To stop this the factory started loctiting them and yes, they can be a right bastard to get out! The reason they are still tight is probably because they have never been out. To find TDC it is much easier to get the back wheel off the ground, stick it in 5th with the plugs out and the covers off and turn the back wheel to move the crank. This is probably what the shop did or, alternatively, they didn't check the valves. In that scenario they wouldn't of re-torqued the heads either which should be done at the first service.
With the valve covers on a 2013 it will have the coated metal rocker cover gaskets. These may be a bit sticky but should pop loose if you stick a pry bar between the cover and the top fin at a pint where the top fin is well supported and lift GENTLY. If it doesn't pop loose? Stop! There must be some other issue. Be careful or you will break a fin, you have been warned. If the gasket was discarded and the cover glued on with gorilla snot, (A common bodge by retards.) great care will be needed to pry off the cover. On no account try to get something between the mating surfaces to pry.
The air filter on the single TB models is tiny but I'd have to say I'd be surprised if it needed changing at 6,000 unless you live somewhere really dusty?
Pete
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Are you talking about the front alternator cover? I can't believe the bolts here broke, especially on a newish bike.
<snip>
Let me know which "front cover" you're talking about.
He's talking the alternator cover at the front of the motor. I don't know why, but it seems that Guzzi has started to use a ridiculously strong Loctite, or bolts that are immediately starting to galvanically corrode or something. As a matter of fact at least 2 of mine BENT while I was unthreading them, probably from the amount of force being applied to the head of the bolt at a slight angle on the ratchet during removal.
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Cheers. I have been looking for an hour to find the S or D timing marks to no avail. I have used a new kebab stick.
There was no lock title on the alternator cover bolts. In fact, I was surprised to find them hand tight, just nipped up.
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The alternator cover and spacer are plastic and tend to get a bit soft when hot which allows the bolts to fall out. To stop this the factory started loctiting them and yes, they can be a right bastard to get out! The reason they are still tight is probably because they have never been out. To find TDC it is much easier to get the back wheel off the ground, stick it in 5th with the plugs out and the covers off and turn the back wheel to move the crank. This is probably what the shop did or, alternatively, they didn't check the valves. In that scenario they wouldn't of re-torqued the heads either which should be done at the first service.
<snip>
The air filter on the single TB models is tiny but I'd have to say I'd be surprised if it needed changing at 6,000 unless you live somewhere really dusty?
Pete
...It's like they used the high-strength/fricken heat to remove Loctite. And if they did they're freakin' morons.
I never liked spinning the back wheel to align the timing marks, it gives less control than the crankshaft, but I'm a-retentive that way.
I didn't bother with the air filter yet (or spark plugs) I'm gonna wait till the 12k.
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To turn the engine I used a breaker bar and a socket on the alternator nut. Instead of a chopstick use a small flashlight, and look into the sparkplug hole to watch the cyl rise and fall.
So the factory used crazy loctite to solve a problem that didn't really exist. While other issues remain.
okay. I'm beginning to understand Italian.
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Thanks for the advice. I will get the engine temp up and try to remove the other two.
I paid for a valve check and I am thinking positive, hoping that I got what I paid for. It just seemed strange to me that they would spin the rear wheel. Maybe they had already broken a few bolts and so knew better than to try to remove them. :)
The air filter almost looked like new but I changed it anyway. I guess I needed a win after breaking those bolts.
It is the front alternator cover that I'm trying to remove. I was surprised they were as tight as they were as well.
I did read that I could tap the valve covers with a rubber mallet or a block of wood so I'll try that. I don't have any gaskets but will get some ordered before I attempt to remove the valve covers again.
So, I have been a long time lurker, well since about August 2013 when I got the bike. But, I hardly post anything useful so I really appreciate the quick responses. I will let you know how things turn out.
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GKevin,
When getting new valves cover gaskets (and do get a set, you'll need them) be sure to get the new black rubber-coated steel ones. Much better than the old paper ones.
Can anyone give us the part no. of the new gaskets?
Joe
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The single TB models will all have the newer type of gasket.
887002is RC gasket#
When you get the alternator cover bolts out just run a tap through the threads in the case to clean the crap out and then use a schnoore washer on the bolt head instead of Loctite. If you want to use Loctite? Use 243 sparingly and take the bolts out with the engine hot.
Pete
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887002 is the part number for the gaskets. Just changed them and these are the black metal ones.
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Just remember that if you take the alternator bolts out hot, let it fully cool before checking valves.
As a regular course, I get it hot, drain the fluids, and remove the cover, then let it overnight before checking valves (assuming you're doing a fluid change).
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Sump spacer. I'll never bother with one. Yes I know, my 32 year old Monza is probably about to have a catastrophic failure any decade now and it will be all my fault. :BEER: If you do a quick measure you will find the height of the oil above the pick up is about the same as a big Tonti with a spacer and much higher than any of the round fins. Look up and you will see that the block casting has a web that minimises windage too.
add the litre of oil in the gearbox and you have 3L, the same as in a Yammie 1100.
Cheers
Rod
The reason for the sump spacer has nothing to do with windage, and even less to do with early small blocks like your Monza or the V65 I used to own. The reason is that the newer small blocks (like, 750 Breva on) have an oil capacity of only 1.75 quarts and sometimes when new tend to burn a little oil until the rings bed in. Starting with only 1.75 quarts if you lose any significant amount bad, bad things happen-like you blow up your motor at the cost of a couple thousand dollars, easy. The sump adds a full quart more capacity, which is huge %age wise. Compared to the cost of the engine rebuild, the $300 for the sump spacer strikes me as cheap insurance. Ed Milich who races Guzzis and Ducatis saw a couple of torched motors on street small blocks not remotely ridden that hard, then designed and now makes these sump extenders. The older small blocks just didn't seem to have the new bike oil burning issues like the new ones sometimes do.
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15,000 km service peformed today.
1. The tank would not go back on.
2. The air filter just would not fit. I checked with a different Guzzi dealer and it is the correct part. It appears to me that the lip is too thick. I cleaned the old air filter and put it back in. I had so much trouble getting to this filter and replacing the screws. I am sure I will end up putting in helicoil threads.
3. I set the valves at 0.1 intake amd 0.15 exhaust. This resulted in much reduced engine noise while coasting. I have read here on this forum that these tolerances are too small but I had already done the service. It sounds better to me. I think the person who suggested different tolerances also posted a link. I cant find it now.
4. The final drive oil was milky like it had water in it. I changed it just before Christmas at the 7,500 km service.
5. What is the story with the gearbox plug? It is so hard to get back in. I moved the crossover pipe. Got there but boy, why not leave 10 mm more room?
6. I replaced the plugs but also checked the ones coming out. The gap on those was way over.
7. Love this bike.
8. Hope my California Vintage arrives later in he week. So excited.(http://)[/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]
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Yours is probably OK, but I would be concerned if the valve train was completely silent.
A tappy valve is a happy valve :)
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Charles,
I wrote a guide on changing the air filter. You might find a tip there that makes it work.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/sets/72157638864403325/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/sets/72157638864403325/)
Click on each photo to display the text below.
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The reason for the sump spacer has nothing to do with windage, and even less to do with early small blocks like your Monza or the V65 I used to own. The reason is that the newer small blocks (like, 750 Breva on) have an oil capacity of only 1.75 quarts and sometimes when new tend to burn a little oil until the rings bed in. Starting with only 1.75 quarts if you lose any significant amount bad, bad things happen-like you blow up your motor at the cost of a couple thousand dollars, easy. The sump adds a full quart more capacity, which is huge %age wise. Compared to the cost of the engine rebuild, the $300 for the sump spacer strikes me as cheap insurance. Ed Milich who races Guzzis and Ducatis saw a couple of torched motors on street small blocks not remotely ridden that hard, then designed and now makes these sump extenders. The older small blocks just didn't seem to have the new bike oil burning issues like the new ones sometimes do.
Whatever was done with the re-design of the pistons and rings that occurred at the same time as the adoption of the single TB it seems to have cured the oil-drinking issue. Oddly the only bikes that seem to have really suffered from it are the FI 750's. Why? No idea, but the new pistons have substantially shorter skirts and like most modern pistons are more heavily relieved at the sides. Perhaps they don't go all sorts of queer shapes when they get hot and the older design did? The FI bikes do run appreciably hotter than the older, carbed, machines though which is probably why Rod has never had a problem with his smallblocks.
What always fascinated me is where the oil goes to? When you take apart one of the ones that has seized its big ends after running out of oil there are no signs of oil being burnt in the combustion chambers, nor are the air boxes overly contaminated or full of oil! They don't smoke before they seize! Sometimes they drink an entire sump in a very short period of time! It just vanishes! Its very vexing.
Pete
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Does anyone have a list of the tourque settings for V7C servicing? I am particularly interested in oil filter and sump plug.
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The aluminum is pretty soft, be careful with the torque specs if you're not sure of your wrench calibration.
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Kev, I was just looking back through this thread since it has been revived. I didn't scour the thread, but did you ever get your question answered about the one way valve? I assume you were referring to item 28 in the picture, right? Anyway, that does resemble the one way valves Stucchi uses in the fuel line for their aux tank for the Stelvio.
BTW, Your bike really appeals to me. It looks good set up the way you have it.
John Henry
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John, you talking about this post?
Hmmm, maybe I've got this all wrong - is that a one-way valve in the common crankcase line?
http://www.harpermoto.com/parts-by-motorcycle.html
http://www.harpermoto.com/parts-by-motorcycle/2010-2020-moto-guzzis/v7-special-stone-750-2012-2013/air-box-en-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20-21-22-23-24-25-26-27-28.html
(https://www.harpermoto.com/images/pl/2010/v7%20special%20-%20stone%20750%202012-2013/images/frame-air-box.jpg)
And there are breather filter elements in the air box - wonder if they are ever supposed to be replaced?
I stopped worrying about it.
I don't know if that's a cranckcase vent, or oil drain back?
But I've found nothing in the form of air box drain that needs periodic service.
Oh, and thanks, I'm tickled with it.
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Those bolts....hate those bolts. Learned the hard way doing my first service. Bent two of them and had to find replacements. and then over tightened one of the replacements, sinking it into the soft plastic cover because my lighting was poor and I wasn't paying attention. I think there's another thread here somewhere about them as well.
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Just did my first service - 607 miles on my '14 V7 Special. My first small block. Few observations on head re-torque and valve adjustment that might help...
After my last ride I loosened the alternator cover bolts while hot. Not necessary as there was no Loctite on the bolts. Came out easily, went back with blue.
Didn't realize spark plug was so small. Glad I had my thin walled socket left from the Calvin's inner plugs. Gap was fine, color perfect.
Propped up the rear of tank with 2x4 for more room, good suggestion (I DID think to leave tank almost empty).
Crush washers under 4 large valve cover bolts stayed in place. Cover came off smooth with gasket reused. Added some grease to insure longevity. I did buy some spares as insurance.
Tappets initially at TDC were TIGHT! Once I re-torqued the head bolts, valves were still in spec at .006 in and .008 out. No adjust necessary.
Added some anti seize to valve cover bolts, and buttoned it up.
Fresh fluids and sump spacer installed. Guzzi breakfast tomorrow to shake it all down. Life is good!
Cam
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Facinating reading for a rainy afterternoon on the Texas coast. Hard to digest in one sitting but I sure, it will be extremely useful when I get enough miles to service my brand new white 2013 Stone. ;D Happy to join the ranks of v7 owners and thankful for all the work you guys, especially Kev, have put into this thread. This may be a bit off topic, but has anyone been able to source a HP saddle rack in black in the US? Listed as part # 650540-001 on the HP German ? site. I know some folks have purchased the chrome version (Where?) and had them powder coated, but I'd prefer the black to begin with. Chrome is not my friend in this salty environment.
Thanks again for the informative and extensive posts.
Dave
Galveston, Island just off the coast of Texas
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If no one has it in the US, bet the same EU supplier Cam just used for the c-bow racks could get it here reasonably fast and cheap.
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If no one has it in the US, bet the same EU supplier Cam just used for the c-bow racks could get it here reasonably fast and cheap.
Motobins in the UK. Special ordered HB C-Bow racks and had them in less than 3 weeks.
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After reading this post and all that followed. I am under the impression that my salesman has no idea what he is talking about.
He said.... The first service is just an oil change. Which made me cringe at the 300 dollar service fee.
I can change the oil myself.
Stupid question: (even after reading this post) But want to make sure....
The first "break in" service is NOT just an oil change, is that correct?
Yes, I know it's a stupid question.... but please answer anyway, before I throw away $300 for an oil change.
I am not the tech savvy to do most of what you have listed here.
Is it really worth bringing it into the shop for them to do?
Ed
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No, at the first service all the major oils are changed, engine, gearbox and bevelbox, oil filter too should be changed and the head bolts cracked off and re-torqued. The latter is it seems important as they can leak if the re-torque isn't performed. Valves are adjusted after the re-torque. I suggest you find a shop that has a service manager who can read.
Pete
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Does anyone have a list of the tourque settings for V7C servicing? I am particularly interested in oil filter and sump plug.
There is, or maybe was, got it somewhere deep down in one of the computers. But if my memory doesn't fail again the values are standard values for the bolt specs, say 10 Nm for a lightly oiled M6. Those tables can be found anywhere on the internet.
The ones for which you really need a light hand are the gearbox- and rear sump drain bolts. The bolt heads are oversized and too much force are easily applied if they are tightened by hand!
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Ed,
First service requirements are specified in the small book that came with the bike. It will show what is needed at 1000 km, etc. Exactly what Pete said above. It helps if your Guzzi dealer can read, I'd do it myself.
Cam
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If you can't do the first service, find someone that can. It's pretty important...
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There is, or maybe was, got it somewhere deep down in one of the computers. But if my memory doesn't fail again the values are standard values for the bolt specs, say 10 Nm for a lightly oiled M6. Those tables can be found anywhere on the internet.
The ones for which you really need a light hand are the gearbox- and rear sump drain bolts. The bolt heads are oversized and too much force are easily applied if they are tightened by hand!
Anders, the head stud nuts that are re-torqued are not the rocker cover bolts. On a smallblock there are four ten millimetre studs and one 8 millimetre stud. From memory, (I should remember, I did one on Friday!) the 10mm ones are torqued to 32 ft/lbs and the 8mm one to 26 but RTFB!
Pete
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Anders, the head stud nuts that are re-torqued are not the rocker cover bolts. On a smallblock there are four ten millimetre studs and one 8 millimetre stud. From memory, (I should remember, I did one on Friday!) the 10mm ones are torqued to 32 ft/lbs and the 8mm one to 26 but RTFB!
Pete
Or maybe just read the first post of this thread... :D
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Thank you guys. I knew the answer by reading the posts but wanted to specifically ask.
The salesman at the shop is not very knowledgeable about GUzzi's (nor am I.)
I am not sure about the service guys, the store and shop just opened. (The sign isn't even up yet)
I will ask for credentials when I go in to get it done.
Thank you again for entertaining a stupid question.
Ed
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Anders, the head stud nuts that are re-torqued are not the rocker cover bolts. On a smallblock there are four ten millimetre studs and one 8 millimetre stud. From memory, (I should remember, I did one on Friday!) the 10mm ones are torqued to 32 ft/lbs and the 8mm one to 26 but RTFB!
Pete
Oh yes, I was referring to the drain bolts only. :)
Whish you were in Britain, they do use metric these days over there.... ;D
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Or maybe just read the first post of this thread... :D
After all these years, and you still overestimates our abilities. Some never learn. ;D
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Where's the 'face palm' emoticon when you need one?
Well at the least, if you're going to service the bike there make sure they know what they're supposed to be doing. "Just an oil change..." Maybe if he'd said, "Just and oilS change" it would have been a little closer to the truth.
Do the guy a favor though and at least let him know.
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Went and talked with the service manager in length. About the bike, the first service and the salesman.
I am happy with what I heard and he gave me the extensive list of things that will be done (by them) at the first service.
The salesman also got a talking too by SM, about selling service.
I knew that it was a stupid question but I wanted a list of what should have been done at the first service, you guys did not disappoint.
All is well, carry on.
Thanks,
Ed
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hi kev , how did u reset the maintenance on the clocks . thought it had to be done at the dealers on there software , or can u reset with the buttons , thanks
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The service icon can be reset from the "A" and "B" buttons, no need to go to the dealer. FWIW I understand that on the newest BMWs only the dealer can do this and they are urged to charge $50 for the change. Be glad you have a Guzzi.
Peter Y.
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For perspective: I just had the 2014 V7 600 mile service completed at the dealer. $336 Labor/$120 parts/Total: $456..plus..Tax.$32. Grand total: $488.00
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hi kev , how did u reset the maintenance on the clocks . thought it had to be done at the dealers on there software , or can u reset with the buttons , thanks
See post #18 earlier in this thread.
For perspective: I just had the 2014 V7 600 mile service completed at the dealer. $336 Labor/$120 parts/Total: $456..plus..Tax.$32. Grand total: $488.00
WHAT? :o
Dayum....:-X
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Sadly...when you toss in the 90 mile round trip and consider the cost of gas for the truck and $270 I spent at Cabelas while I waited on the bike to get done it gets even worse :'(
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The bike looks nice Kev. Are tyhe panniers the Moto Guzzi ones or Hepco & Becker. If they are H & B, what model?
Thanks in anticipation
Brian ;D
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The bike looks nice Kev. Are tyhe panniers the Moto Guzzi ones or Hepco & Becker. If they are H & B, what model?
Thanks in anticipation
Brian ;D
HB 30L Juniors, which were the official MG bags at one point.
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Getting ready to attempt valve adjustment on 2012 V7C (~7800 miles) . This thread has been a great resource.
Questions?
1. Looking at the front of the crank, are you turning clockwise or counterclockwise?
2. Does it matter which order valves are adjusted (first intake, then exhaust or other way around?
3. Is it necessary to tork the head bolts when doing valve adjustment?
4. Additional gaskets and rubber valve cover caps are being ordered so I have them before the big day. Any other parts worth having on hand?
5. Any other recommended adjustments or servicing when doing valve adjustment?
6. Any other tips or suggestions?
Thanks everyone
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Getting ready to attempt valve adjustment on 2012 V7C (~7800 miles) . This thread has been a great resource.
Questions?
1. Looking at the front of the crank, are you turning clockwise or counterclockwise?
2. Does it matter which order valves are adjusted (first intake, then exhaust or other way around?
3. Is it necessary to tork the head bolts when doing valve adjustment?
Additional gaskets and rubber valve covers are being ordered so I have them before the big day.
Any other tips or suggestions?
1. Clockwise
2. No
3. '13 + engines ( not sure about '12) call for a head bolt torque at the first service only. Only valve adjusts thereafter.
Take both plugs out before rotating the engine. I personally shine a flashlight into the plug hole to find TDC on the intake compression stroke. You'll see the piston rise then pause for a moment, that's TDC. If you've got it right you should be able to pull up and down on the rockers. Now set intake and exhaust with feelers. I'm really anal with this (takes me longer). There should be a certain amount of drag on the feeler guage when setting the gap. Once tightened down (don't overtorque the adjuster nut) I make sure I can't "easily" slide in the next size larger guage. There are many ways to skin this cat, this is mine. Repeat other side.
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Cam has you covered.
I'll add that the cylinder head retorque has been part of the FIRST SERVICE ONLY for the smallblock for years, including all modern versions that I know of and presumably that includes the V7II as well.
As for tips - be careful when tightening things, don't overtighten and strip things like the drain or fill plugs.
Be careful with the oil filter cap, if you overtighten that bolt you'll probably crack the cap.
If you think that might happen, it could be worth the $10 to have a spare handy, but that shouldn't happen unless you're really not paying attention.
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One more thing. The engine should be stone cold before adjusting the valves. So let the bike sit overnight and then go to work.
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thanks for the tips
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As i write this, a good friend of mine is picking up his new Moto Guzzi from Dave Richardson at Moto International.
I asked my friend to ask Dave if heads on my 2011 V7R need to be retorqued at any given mileage interval from new.
Dave told my friend, "No head torque or retorque required at 600 miles or thereafter."
What thoughts do you have why would Dave Richardson say to not retorque heads ?
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As i write this, a good friend of mine is picking up his new Moto Guzzi from Dave Richardson at Moto International.
I asked my friend to ask Dave if heads on my 2011 V7R need to be retorqued at any given mileage interval from new.
Dave told my friend, "No head torque or retorque required at 600 miles or thereafter."
What thoughts do you have why would Dave Richardson say to not retorque heads ?
For whatever reason he seems to be ignoring the OEM owner's manual, OEM service manual, AND the factory bulletin that Pete told us about which specifically said retorquing is still required on the Smallblock.
Maybe he's making a bad assumption based on much more limited experience than the factory. Maybe he's assuming the newer gaskets don't require it? Maybe he thinks just because the big blocks don't require it the V7 shouldn't either?
But I'll trust three factory sources and another dealer (Pete) thanks.
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I totally agree with Kev m. You wouldn't want to have a blown head gasket down the line because you didn't torque the head bolts at 600 mi, and have a warranty claim denied because you didn't follow the service instructions. Perhaps I'm being a bit presumptuous, but maybe you should suggest to Dave Richardson that he read the manual.
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Well, Dave is not without experience.
So I would probably ask WHY he recommends that in light the of the factory sources that say otherwise. If he claims the manuals are out dated I'd ask him how he explains the service bulletin which is the deciding factor for me.
I wish I had a copy or at least the reference number. Pete or anyone?
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Just completed my first valve adjustment and thought I'd add my notes to this thread. I had the 600 mile break-in service completed by Rose Farm, so this was the 6K mile service. I followed all suggestions mentioned in the thread and they were very helpful. I'm just wondering why a valve adjustment isn't covered in the service manual? Anyway, I did loosen the alt. cover bolts with a warm engine and they weren't tight at all, I was shocked how easily they turned out. I was even more shocked the next morning when I tried getting them out of a cold engine since I had only loosed them up for the next day, they really tighten up! So I guess having a warm engine is key to getting those out without much trouble. I also used a 2x4 to prop the tank for working room, another good tip.
With 6 valve cover bolts removed, I had to tap my valve covers with a rubber mallet to free them up, the gaskets were stuck to the head but peeled off without any trouble or residue. The spark plugs came out easily and looked nicely burned with greyish hue. My left side cylinder valve clearances were: exhaust slightly loose and intake slightly tight. I forgot to check the other side before loosening the locknut, so I can't tell you were they were at.
My next notes are for dummies (as I am one) so if you master tech's know something I don't, please enlighten me as I'm sure you will!
Dummy Tip #1. To make the actual adjustment use a 10mm combo wrench and flat screw-driver. Hold your adjustment screw in place while tightening your locknut. Does anyone have torque values for those locknuts? I just went snug by feel. My first attempt by adjusting and tightening with a ratchet resulted in moving the adjustment screw .
Dummy Tip #2. My biggest frustration during the job was getting my new rocker cover gaskets seated when putting the covers back on. Ultimately I found that a dab of grease on the cover and then inserting the the 2 center bolts through the cover with the gasket in place and then gently placing on the head while lining up the holes and slowly threading those bolts me the best result. All the other gasket holes were lined up (I used flashlight to look for any overlap). I then put the other 4 bolts in. (Again torque values anyone?)
I managed to get this done in about 2.5 hours which I think I can cut by an hour or so next time since I was going extra slow and triple checking things along the way. I also made TDC marks with paint so that should also help next go 'round. I started my little baby up and I'll be darned if it didn't even sound better than before! Oh and no leaks, which is really what I was most concerned about.
Cheers.
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Torque value for the valve adjusting nuts (M6) is 10 Nm. For the valve cover bolts, 8-10 Nm all around. Head bolts: 28 Nm for the top one (M8) and 42 Nm for the other four (M10).
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See post #18 earlier in this thread.
WHAT? :o
Dayum....:-X
Just quoted $661.44 here in Alberta/Canada
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Just completed my first valve adjustment and thought I'd add my notes to this thread. I had the 600 mile break-in service completed by Rose Farm, so this was the 6K mile service. I followed all suggestions mentioned in the thread and they were very helpful. I'm just wondering why a valve adjustment isn't covered in the service manual? Anyway, I did loosen the alt. cover bolts with a warm engine and they weren't tight at all, I was shocked how easily they turned out. I was even more shocked the next morning when I tried getting them out of a cold engine since I had only loosed them up for the next day, they really tighten up! So I guess having a warm engine is key to getting those out without much trouble. I also used a 2x4 to prop the tank for working room, another good tip.
With 6 valve cover bolts removed, I had to tap my valve covers with a rubber mallet to free them up, the gaskets were stuck to the head but peeled off without any trouble or residue. The spark plugs came out easily and looked nicely burned with greyish hue. My left side cylinder valve clearances were: exhaust slightly loose and intake slightly tight. I forgot to check the other side before loosening the locknut, so I can't tell you were they were at.
My next notes are for dummies (as I am one) so if you master tech's know something I don't, please enlighten me as I'm sure you will!
Dummy Tip #1. To make the actual adjustment use a 10mm combo wrench and flat screw-driver. Hold your adjustment screw in place while tightening your locknut. Does anyone have torque values for those locknuts? I just went snug by feel. My first attempt by adjusting and tightening with a ratchet resulted in moving the adjustment screw .
Dummy Tip #2. My biggest frustration during the job was getting my new rocker cover gaskets seated when putting the covers back on. Ultimately I found that a dab of grease on the cover and then inserting the the 2 center bolts through the cover with the gasket in place and then gently placing on the head while lining up the holes and slowly threading those bolts me the best result. All the other gasket holes were lined up (I used flashlight to look for any overlap). I then put the other 4 bolts in. (Again torque values anyone?)
I managed to get this done in about 2.5 hours which I think I can cut by an hour or so next time since I was going extra slow and triple checking things along the way. I also made TDC marks with paint so that should also help next go 'round. I started my little baby up and I'll be darned if it didn't even sound better than before! Oh and no leaks, which is really what I was most concerned about.
Cheers.
As far as the adjuster nut and valve cover bolts, don't over tighten. Both can strip easily. Just snug up by hand.
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Bumped for Doc!
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Bumped for Doc!
Thank you, Kev
M8 head botls are 28 Nm = 20.6 ft lbs
M10 are 42 Nm = 30.9 ft lbs
After looking at the vent hose spring clamps, I see why you suggested lifting the tank a few inches.
With plugs out, why not rotate tire to get TDC, rather than remove front engine cover?
Will go back and re-read.
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I didn't bother lifting the tank this last time. Maybe I'm getting used to it.
I really prefer the precision of turning the crankshaft with a socket to the rear tire, but that's not an option on later V7 models with a wet alternator, so the rear tire will be fine.
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I didn't bother lifting the tank this last time. Maybe I'm getting used to it.
I really prefer the precision of turning the crankshaft with a socket to the rear tire, but that's not an option on later V7 models with a wet alternator, so the rear tire will be fine.
Ahh...thanks for the update.
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I just caught up with this thread. At 600 Miles my dealer, Reina International in Milwaukee, WI, only performed an oil change. Not too long after that I reviewed the service intervals and had another shop (The Shop) perform the full 600 mile recommended service. I have about 4,000 before my next service and 2,000 on my current oil from late last spring. Do you guys recommend I change the oil since it will soon be a year old or should I wait till the next service interval later in the season. Anyone form SE Wisconsin use Reina? I lost my faith from that 600 mile service incident, but could be swayed to give them another try. While I have a ton of BMW air head wrenching behind me, my condo is not too conducive for wrenching thus the need for competent shop.
Thanks!
Joe
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My usage and storage conditions told me long ago there's no reason for me to be changing oils earlier than mileage or time. These days most of my bikes get changed by time (and I tend to stretch that a little too if the mileage is low enough).
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I change earlier because 99% of my riding is commute on NYC streets... And for the peace of mind. I go 2000 to 2500 between services, which happens every 6 months or so.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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My usage and storage conditions told me long ago there's no reason for me to be changing oils earlier than mileage or time. These days most of my bikes get changed by time (and I tend to stretch that a little too if the mileage is low enough).
Changed by time: do you mean annual if it's before the service mileage?
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Changed by time: do you mean annual if it's before the service mileage?
AnnualISH (but generally yeah).
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AnnualISH (but generally yeah).
Thanks for the clarification Kev.
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One more thing. Try not to disconnect the breather hose to the head. It's a bear to get it back on.
I also use the grease trick to locate the gasket.
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Just want to rebump and thank you all for the information!
wow...this is a lot of info in this thread!
I am a new V7 owner and have not had the chance to ride her...stupid snow/rain storm in BC Canada...hopefully by July I will get my first 1K KM service done. Bike has been sitting in storage for the last year and only got 70 KM on her.
I wish the first service to be done by a dealer *personal thing* also get ECU updated @ the same time if any.
I got quoted about $350 CND + tax here by Chilliwack Motorsports...
With this thread, I will have a good idea what to watch out for and ask for when they do my service.
by the way, my is a 2015 V7 Stone...RED...LOVE the RED!
(http://thumb.ibb.co/j6VURF/Photo_2017_01_30_9_19_09_PM.jpg) (http://ibb.co/j6VURF)
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Now that the snow has melted, I can finally think about
doing my first service on my 2016 V7II.
Two questions, to wit:
1. Didn't I read that I have to tighten the head bolts twice, as you would tighten them
to one torque value, and then go back and tighten to the next value? and...
2. Do I need to change my valve cover gaskets?
TIA,
Jim
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Now that the snow has melted, I can finally think about
doing my first service on my 2016 V7II.
Two questions, to wit:
1. Didn't I read that I have to tighten the head bolts twice, as you would tighten them
to one torque value, and then go back and tighten to the next value? and...
2. Do I need to change my valve cover gaskets?
TIA,
Jim
I would like to know more about this as well as I am finally coming up to 1000KM service
As for the torquing twice of the head bolt.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/j5Wt8v/headbolt.jpg) (http://ibb.co/j5Wt8v)
So do I
- loosen one head bolt (out of 4)
- retorque it to Pre-tightening Torque (25Nm)
- torque this bolt again to Final Torque value (42Nm)
- Move on to the 2nd, 3rd & 4th bolts with the same procedure until all bolts are tighten to the Final Tighten Value
or
- loosen one head bolt (out of 4)
- retorque it to Pre-tightening Torque (25Nm)
- loosen 2nd head bolt
- torque 2nd head bolt to Pre-tighten Torque (25Nm)
- Move on the 3rd & 4th bolts with the same procedure
- After all 4 bolts are @ Pre-tighten value (25Nm), then I proceed and tighten all 4 bolts @ final tighten torque value (42Nm)
Sorry if I make this confusing, but would like some guidance. :)
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Jim (sorry I missed that post) & Tim,
May I refer you to this quote from post #12. Info I posted from GuzziSteve.
Head bolts should be backed off 1/8-1/4 turn before re-torque, and I go to 33ftlbs on the 4 big ones and 23ftlbs. When you back them off you may hear them pop a bit, that is normal. I have seen them leak at 30-32ftlbs.
The reason for cracking off is two fold.
1. Pete Roper says they over torque at the factory.
2. You need a moving fastener to properly measure torque.
Because you're only cracking off and not installing a new gasket for the first time there is no pretorque step. I.E. just cracking off you're not loosening enough to need the pretorque stage.
Just tighten fastener to the proper final torque.
I forget if I did one at a time or cracked all then tightened all. It was probably the latter.
I'm not sure it matters.
Gaskets can usually be reused, especially if you coat them lightly with grease before hand.
Gaskets seem more likely to leak if you don't have a spare handy on the shelf. 😉
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AH...
Thanks Kev!
Basically because I am only making sure the torque value is correct on those head bolts and NOT taking the bolt/rod assembly right now, I should not reach below the 25Nm (or 18.5 ftlb) value of the pre-tighten value.
Guess I can check with my torque wrench when the time comes :P
And I noticed you quoted the torque value higher than what Guzzi Manual recommend...Are those bolts okay to be overtighten like that???
Please correct me if I am wrong...getting a bit of butterfly as I normally do not like to touch engine parts but not wanting to spend $500 Canadian just on the services that seems to be simple enough. LOL
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Well I'm pretty sure from the notes on this thread that I went with 21 ft lbs (28-29 Nm) on the small one and 30 ft lbs (40-41 Nm) on the big ones.
Now GuzziSteve is/was a Guzzi mechanic with a lot of experience so if he says that's what he did I'm sure you're good (assuming nothing has changed).
But if you're like me and want to follow the most current factory manual (I'm assuming that's what you posted) then just go with those values.
Chances are most torque wrenches are off by a foot lbs or two anyway.
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Appreciated and with utmost patient!
Now off to get me a new set of glasses, as I keep on missing key notes between the line... :shocked: