2004 EV Touring TPS setting issue ?

[Tom H]

I think I may have a TPS or ECU problem.

I have a 2004 Cali EV Touring hydro with 12,000 mi with upgrades. The ECU apparently has been changed unless the factory wrote in marker "Guzzi Vint Good" The TB looks clean inside.

I have tried to balance and adjust the air mixture of the TB's to get rid of a decelerating pop/backfire. And  a few other throttle response issues.

I have GuzziDiag and the proper cables and have read the tutorial. I also have balancing gauges. I have done a search for answers to this, but have not found an answer, at least that I understand. I have read the backyard tune up guide that did the valves (on a solid lifter) and then the TPS/ECU. And followed the 2 guide versions for the Weber injection system.

Now the problem. When I unhook the link bar on the LH TB and back off the butterfly stop with the 2.5mm allen (not the balance adjusting screw) I get a reading on GuzziDiag of:

.25deg and .176 on the volts. This is when I pushed on the butterfly through the TB "or" by moving the external linkage. Normal un-assisted rest is .44deg with .197 if I remember right.

I tried adjusting the TPS VERY VERY SLIGHTLY (like I can't really feel it move) to lower the voltage, and the lowest voltage I can get is the .176. If I turn it any farther the reading goes to 88deg or so of butterfly and a very high voltage. As in wide open. Move it in the other direction and it goes up in a "normal ?" increment.

Is the TPS bad? Bad map for my model with the Vintage ECU? Is there a stock MAP for the EVT?

I'm about ready to try some old carbs off my Eldo!! and be done with the whole FI thing. At least carbs I can figure out 

Can someone point me to a post for the answer or help me out on this!

Thank you,
Tom

[Kiwi Dave]

The procedure to set the TPS is to remove all linkages and wind the idle screw on the throttle body with the TPS attached right out.  At this point, the TPS should be set to 150 mV, and the adjustment sealed.

Then wind the idle screw back up to between 475 & 525 mV (this is 3.6° +/-0.3°).  Then balance the idle between the throttle bodies using a manometer, twinmax, or other electronic balancing device.

Reattach the balance rods, and adjust the balance at around 2000 rpm, ensuring that the idle speed does not increase when the rods are attached.

There are some who say that the 150 mV setting is irrelevant because it is never left in this position.  However, since the TPS volts vs throttle opening is not a linear arrangement, I think it might be important.

This is from my memory.  A better description of the procedure can be found at http://www.bikeboy.org/tpssetting.html.

[Toystoretom]

Just out of curiosity what upgrades do you have?

[Wayne Orwig]

.25deg and .176 on the volts. This is when I pushed on the butterfly through the TB "or" by moving the external linkage. Normal un-assisted rest is .44deg with .197 if I remember right.

I tried adjusting the TPS VERY VERY SLIGHTLY (like I can't really feel it move) to lower the voltage, and the lowest voltage I can get is the .176. If I turn it any farther the reading goes to 88deg or so of butterfly and a very high voltage. As in wide open. Move it in the other direction and it goes up in a "normal ?" increment.

Is the TPS bad?

Pretty certain that has to be a bad TPS to jump like that.
I did see one bike that had a crappy connection in the TPS plug. That would occasionally cause it to just around a bit into it was cleaned and tightened up.

[Tom H]

Kiwi Dave, good tutorial and some things to look at! I can not get down to the .150 mv. Below .176 the volts jump up, as in the throttle is on full. no way to get anywhere near the specified volts.

Toystoretom, trippletree done, clutch from what I was told by a reputable older Guzzi shop has been done, head issues as in cam have been done. At least the rockers and springs, have not verified the cam myself, but was told if this upper was done then the cam on my year was done. No factory records to prove it, though they did prove the trippletree.

Wayne Orwig, so the wiring connector could have corrosion and need to be cleaned. Or a bad TPS. It was odd that when decreasing the voltage it would come down and then a barley-felt touch of a rotation more it would jump up not down more. I was even able to get it to hover between the max and .176, GuzziDiag wouldn't settle on either number until I "touched" it again.

Thank for the help so far.
Tom

[balvenie]

Thanks for that Dave

[fotoguzzi]

you don't have to buy the very expensive Guzzi TPS, there is a near match from Harley that will cost about $40. I would start with that if your replacing it.

[LowRyter]

My EV has been plagued by this TPS business for the last couple of years.  I finally have it about 90% solved.  The bike still surges when it's cold, runs strong when it warms up but then the idle seem to creep to 1600 or so.

These TPS are made in China and are dubious quality.

Here's the saga, I hope you find it helpful:

First, I got a Harley TPS.  They are about $80.  It's not exactly the same part number (PF-4).  The Harley part was defective out of the box and didn't work.  I was lucky enough to send it back and got my money back.   BTW- the bike had a PF-4 TPS in it from the previous owner, so they do work fine until they don't work.

Next, I got an aftermarket replacement (PF-3C) from California Cycle Works.  Someone from the list here purchased one and it didn't work out of the box (same deal as my Harley experience).  After that, CCW took the Guzzi application off their website. 

My mechanic is a Ducati specialist and was able to order one from CCW.  It worked for three month and then it failed.  He scoped it and discovered it had a dead sport and spike in the curve.  CCW did send a replacement, they also tested it before they sent it.  So far, so good.  Except for the persistent problems per above.  I am still concerned it will fail like the last one.  I am pretty dubious regarding these parts because I have a feeling that all of the replacement parts are made in China regardless whether you get them from Harley, Guzzi or CCW.

here's the CCW part

https://ca-cycleworks.com/ca-cycleworks-products/throttle-position-sensor/pf3c

good luck

[Wayne Orwig]

Wayne Orwig, so the wiring connector could have corrosion and need to be cleaned. Or a bad TPS. It was odd that when decreasing the voltage it would come down and then a barley-felt touch of a rotation more it would jump up not down more. I was even able to get it to hover between the max and .176, GuzziDiag wouldn't settle on either number until I "touched" it again.

Sure sounds like a bad TPS. Some people have had good luck cleaning them. I've never had any luck with that.

[Rich A]

My Jackal had an annoying miss on decel in midrange. I got a TPS from Ca Cycleworks, OEM part number, around $100 as I recall. I used Guzzidiag to set it even though you're not supposed to do that (use a VOM instead), and it works fine.

Rich A

[Chuck in Indiana]

Just a heads up. If you are trying to set the 150 mv with Guzzi Diag, it won't work. It *has* to be set with a digital voltmeter.

[Rich A]

Just a heads up. If you are trying to set the 150 mv with Guzzi Diag, it won't work. It *has* to be set with a digital voltmeter.

What I did, whether it is advisable or not, was to check the old TPS (for which the idle was fine) with a VOM and then took a reading with Guzzidiag and then set the new one to that reading. Maybe I was just lucky.

Rich A

[Tom H]

Just a heads up. If you are trying to set the 150 mv with Guzzi Diag, it won't work. It *has* to be set with a digital voltmeter.

Chuck, I did not know that. I will follow the instructions that I have read for testing it on the bike with a digital voltmeter, I do have one. Thank you!

If the TPS test fails, I will look for the one for a HD.

On the ECU. Nobody has mentioned if the Vintage ECU (presumably stock map) is the correct replacement on the EVT. Is the Vintage ECU a correct replacement?

Thank you all so far!!!

Tom

[Wayne Orwig]

The 2004 EV has the 15M ECU. The Vintage might be a 15RC.
You can put a 15M in place of a 15RC I believe, and it will ignore the O2 sensor. But you may have some issues going the other way and not having the O2 sensor. Then there is the dual plug versus single, and all of that. Likely you can use GuzziDiag to remap around it all, but it likely isn't a simple plug in replacement.

[Tom H]

With GuzziDiag, it will only recognize the ECU as the Vintage. It did have a "code" for the "lambda?" sensor in the cat converter, cleared the code. My bike has the expansion chamber without the sensor.

So if THIS ECU is looking for feedback from the O2 sensor to adjust the fuel mix, like a new car does, and does not get a response, it could throw the fuel mix off??

Is there a stock MAP for the Touring that can be applied to the Vintage ECU? Do I NEED to update it? Where do I find it if I need it? I did see MAPS, I think, on the GuzziDiag site, but I do not fully understand how to utilize/use them yet. I do understand how to install one per the DuzziDiag Tutorial.

This is like a crash course on how to work on a bike!. I've kept my '70 & '72 running for the 30+ years I've had them. Now all the new electronics are a mystery I have to learn!

Thanks again to all so far!!
Tom

[Kiwi Dave]

I have a spare ECU for a 2003 EV Touring I purchased a while ago and never used.  If you are interested PM me for details.

[Meinolf]

Hi Tom,

I think I may have a TPS or ECU problem. I have a 2004 Cali EV Touring hydro with 12,000 mi with upgrades. The ECU apparently has been changed unless the factory wrote in marker "Guzzi Vint Good" The TB looks clean inside.

check first which ECU is used. Is it a 15M or a 15RC?

Now the problem. When I unhook the link bar on the LH TB and back off the butterfly stop with the 2.5mm allen (not the balance adjusting screw) I get a reading on GuzziDiag of:

.25deg and .176 on the volts. This is when I pushed on the butterfly through the TB "or" by moving the external linkage. Normal un-assisted rest is .44deg with .197 if I remember right.

the ECU can not measure voltage accurately. You need to use a DMM to set the baseline at 156mV.

I tried adjusting the TPS VERY VERY SLIGHTLY (like I can't really feel it move) to lower the voltage, and the lowest voltage I can get is the .176. If I turn it any farther the reading goes to 88deg or so of butterfly and a very high voltage. As in wide open. Move it in the other direction and it goes up in a "normal ?" increment.

The ECU code contains default parameters for the lowest and highest voltage. If you get past them it will show the the values you have seen. Use a DMM and you will see that the voltage actually changes in an orderly manner.

I recently explained part of what's happening in the ECU and how to set the TPS and bypass screws beginning here: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17609&page=8#entry208328

That should point you in the right direction.

Replacing the TPS PF03C with another type is not a good idea unless you are willing to recalculate and replace the TPS look-up table in the ECU code. It's not a big thing, but needs to be done. The PF04C fits mechanically, but has different curves than the PF03C.

Cheers
Meinolf

[Wayne Orwig]

I tried adjusting the TPS VERY VERY SLIGHTLY (like I can't really feel it move) to lower the voltage, and the lowest voltage I can get is the .176. If I turn it any farther the reading goes to 88deg or so of butterfly and a very high voltage. As in wide open. Move it in the other direction and it goes up in a "normal ?" increment.

When you say "a very high voltage", I was assuming you were measuring the voltage with a meter. If you were measuring the voltage with a digital meter, then the TPS is bad.
Are you using a meter?

[Tom H]

Wayne, This was with GuzziDiag. I will use a meter instead to check the voltage as has been mentioned.

Meinolf, I will be looking into which ECU I have shortly and will post what I find. Also quickly read earlier today the post you made on the other board. Lotta reading there!! I guess I should have become an electrical engineer to work on this bike!!

Again, Thank you all so far!!
Tom

[Wayne Orwig]

Wayne, This was with GuzziDiag. I will use a meter instead to check the voltage as has been mentioned.

Then I take back what I said about the TPS being bad. While it still may be bad, you MUST measure that voltage with an actual voltmeter. Outside of the normal range, the ECU, and thus GuzziDiag, has some trouble reporting the degrees/voltage.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Then I take back what I said about the TPS being bad. While it still may be bad, you MOST measure that voltage with and actual voltmeter. Outside of the normal range, the ECU, and thus GuzziDiag, has some trouble reporting the degrees/voltage.

Yeah, when I tried it with Guzzidiag, I could get zero and the next would be like 190. Paul said the TPS doesn't output reliable information that is lower than normal idle voltages.

[Tom H]

I have used GuzziDiag and it will not recognize the 15M version of the ECU. It will only recognize the 15RC version of a Vintage and the P.I California. Do I need to pull the ECU to confirm the findings?

GuzziDiag came up with this: IAW15RC PF3C 61601.398.00 3DO9C28P

Tomorrow I plan to start over with the TPS and use a meter to get the voltage from the TPS wire. Then adjust as needed and redo the tune up.

Or is this just a waste of time with the 15RC and my bike not having the Catalytic Converter and Lambda?

Thanks to all again. And thank you for your patience!! I'll get up to speed on the electronics world for bikes yet!!

Where did Ii put that set of points for the EVT?? 

Tom

[Meinolf]

Hi Tom,

GuzziDiag came up with this: IAW15RC PF3C 61601.398.00 3DO9C28P

GuziDiag shows the identifier string stored in the ECU BIN. So you have a 15RC and the BIN 61601.398.00 3DO9C28P.

Or is this just a waste of time with the 15RC and my bike not having the Catalytic Converter and Lambda?

No, it isn't just a waste of time. The 15RC is, from a functional view, the same as a 15M if no Lambda sensor is connected and if the closed-loop operation is turned off in the BIN.

Cheers
Meinolf

[Wayne Orwig]

Or is this just a waste of time with the 15RC and my bike not having the Catalytic Converter and Lambda?

It needs the lambda turned off AND probably needs a different spark advance map.
I wonder why that was put in there.

[Tom H]

With this bike, I'm starting to wonder about a lot of things. My guess for the replacement was that either the original got fried or damaged.

Do I use Tuner Pro to check the setting of this MAP?

Thank you,
Tom

[Tom H]

I found a post here that I think describes how to do it, provided the instructions are still valid:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=60932.0

If I am correct:
1 download stock MAP with GuzziDiag and make a copy to work with
2 open MAP file with Tunerpro
3 turn off the lambda ( I assume there is also an option for the closed loop?)
4 save file
5 upload with GuzziDiag
6 go to the section of GuzziDiag that tells the ECU to relearn
7 Then whalaa!!! hope this makes for a happier bike!!

Tom

[Tom H]

Ok, so I set the TPS per the tune up instructions by Jeffrey Brannen on Guzzitech, as well as read the Guzzi electronic ignition manual and the updated workshop manual to make sure all should be right.

Set the TPS with a meter for the .150 0 setting as well as the .525 for idle. Adjusted the bypass screws and have now an idle that varies from 900-1100 rpm.

So again after some reading, I looked at the O2 reading via GuzziDiag. It showed -123 or -128, not sure and the bike has cooled to below 60C.

So maybe this should be another post?, I tried to adjust the O2 with GuzziDiag following the instructions on this site and when Guzzidiag (in the O2 adjustment section) asked me to start the bike, it wouldn't start. It just cranked. Turned off Guzzi/diag and the bike started just fine. Tried following the instructions a few times and still no start. I did notice the screen shots of GuzziDiag were from an older version of the program

Is this an issue with GuzziDiag or my bike?? Any thoughts on why it wouldn't start??

Seems like one step forward and two steps back!

Thanks again,
Tom

[CalVin2007]

Are you sure you were trying to set O2 and not CO? The 15RC (CalVin) ecu I have will not let me set CO, and acts like you are describing when I try. Probably one of the differences between the 15RC and the 15M that should be in your bike. My guess....and this is just a guess...is that you need to use TunerPro to turn off the O2 circuit (Lambda) in the 15RC, then maybe adjust the map to suit. Good chance it may run well without the map adjustment, but the O2 (Lambda) sure needs to be turned off.
   I am just learning this stuff, and my comments are based on what I am experiencing with my 2007 CalVin and both a 15RC and 15M ecu from a 2002 Lemans. A couple forum members have graciously sent their maps to me to try,and I am doing that. Got in a short test ride yesterday,but it's pretty dang cold here and not the best for tuning.

  Terry

[Tom H]

Oopps, CO not O2.

I forgot to mention that I also tried using the CO section with the bike already running. The bike kept running, but there was an error that came up. Don't remember what the error read.

Meinolf: So, since I do not have a Lambda sensor, I can use TunerPro to turn off the closed loop? I looked at my .bin with TunerPro and found a flagged section for the Lambda with a check box that is checked. So if I uncheck the box, do a save as (or save using a copy of the original) and upload the .bin, it will turn off the closed loop operation? Possibly the bike will idle and run better.

Thanks to all again,
Tom

[Meinolf]

Hi Tom,

So if I uncheck the box, do a save as (or save using a copy of the original) and upload the .bin, it will turn off the closed loop operation?

Yes.

Cheers
Meinolf