Author Topic: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix - RESOLVED!  (Read 13218 times)

Offline Vince in Milwaukee

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2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix - RESOLVED!
« on: January 03, 2015, 02:42:45 AM »
Looks like we've got some snow on the way here in Cheeseland and I'll be getting my little Toro snowblower out.  Unless I want to travel about 50 miles west, I'm stuck using ethanol gas.  I'm guessing that the alcohol content cuts the oil even more than with regular gas.  Is there any way to kind of even things out; say increasing the oil a tad (how much?) or using a higher octance?   The snowblower runs good enough, but seems to be cycling (for lack of a better term) a bit.  
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 05:56:58 PM by Vince in Milwaukee »
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Offline nc43bsa

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2015, 03:02:41 AM »
You could try removing the ethanol from the gas.
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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2015, 05:56:34 AM »
You can't just say that without giving the man the way to do it too...

Here you go.

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Offline sign216

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2015, 06:07:38 AM »
Removing the alcohol is a pain.  Better to drive 50 miles and stock up.
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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2015, 06:07:38 AM »

Offline cwiseman

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2015, 06:10:40 AM »
I'm a 2-stroke junkie but have never found ethanol to be a problem with a 2-stoke running PREMIX and 93 octane. The oil seams to cancel out the ethanol problems. If you want to clean things up put 1 cap full of seafoam to a tank of fuel (about two gallons) I use that occasionally to keep power valves clean and working smoothly.
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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2015, 06:28:08 AM »
I add Startron to the fuel in everything I have. If it has a spark plug; it gets treated with it.

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2015, 07:04:26 AM »
 I ran my newer chain saws on E10 for several years with no problems at all.And they did sit for a month between uses.Last few years I do use non ethanol gas that's easy to find around here.

Offline Aaron D.

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2015, 08:18:14 AM »
I have never had a problem with ethanol fuel in any 2 stroke tool. Doesn't matter how I store it. Just finished cutting 7 trees to splitter length this week with my little 14" saw, never a problem after sitting a while.

The oil does act as a preservative.

Offline Triple Jim

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2015, 08:22:05 AM »
Like the guys posted above, I've used E10 in all my chainsaws, leaf blower, and trimmers, my Lawn Boy 2-stroke mowers, and two 2-stroke motorcycles, one oil injected and one premix, for many years with no ill effects so far.  I did not alter the fuel/oil ratio, and I don't use any additives.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 08:22:36 AM by Triple Jim »
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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2015, 08:24:15 AM »
this is the right way, get the ethanol free if at all possible. many marinas carry it for the boats as do Valero gas stations here.
if not use name brand ( Shell, BP etc.) 93octane, high quality 2 stroke oil Stihl if possible. use Star-tron or marine stabil, It is very important to shake the gas can every time you use it and run the fuel in the blower (or whatever) low every time so you have to refill it with fresh shaken fuel. this re-blends the alcohol and any water with the gas. never use the same mix more than 1-3 months. dump it into the car and mix some new stuff.
better still spend a bit extra and get the pre mixed in quart or bigger sizes at a dealer. Some Stihl dealers are stocking it as do some Home depots and Lowes. Stihl, VP and others are available.
 this is high quality pre-mixed fuel with a long shelf life and will eliminate all problems.
thanks to EPA the high speed jets on todays small equipment are the same size low speed jets were 30 years ago. most carbs can't be rebuilt successfully any more so you are better off to pay on the front side.
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Offline Lannis

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2015, 08:50:12 AM »
I'm a 2-stroke junkie but have never found ethanol to be a problem with a 2-stoke running PREMIX and 93 octane. The oil seams to cancel out the ethanol problems. If you want to clean things up put 1 cap full of seafoam to a tank of fuel (about two gallons) I use that occasionally to keep power valves clean and working smoothly.

My new Stihl chainsaw goofed after only a couple of months.  Took it back to the dealer who reminded me to use 93 octane and a bit of Seafoam along with the oil to keep the rubber bits in order, given the trashy E10 we're forced to use for fuel.   He had to replace a fuel line.   

Been fine ever since.

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2015, 10:00:19 AM »
I can't speak for the current state of affairs on this part, but, back in the 80's and 90's in Minnesota we would see as high as 50% ethanol in gas. especially cheap gas. the rules were you could add up to 10%. that much is enough of a problem but the way it was written each stop (read each temporary owner) the fuel made could add the 10%. so the mfg dumped in 10, then the buyer did their 10, then the transport agency did 10, then the service station could specify 10 also. stacking these adds up quickly. then of course the ethanol sucks up the water.
one of the biggest issues and the reason for shaking the gas can is the ethanol separates from the real gas in a relatively short period of time.
good saws are very high performance engines and run at 12000-14000 RPM. they have extremely close tolerances and over 10% can destroy one in short time.
ask any mfg what their biggest problem is in the US and the answer will be fuel.
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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2015, 10:29:57 AM »
the rules were you could add up to 10%. that much is enough of a problem but the way it was written each stop (read each temporary owner) the fuel made could add the 10%. so the mfg dumped in 10, then the buyer did their 10, then the transport agency did 10, then the service station could specify 10 also. stacking these adds up quickly.

Years back, early 80s, I know a service station chain owner that did this type thing. He would order a few rail tankers of gasoline, and a tanker of ethanol, and he would blend his own at whatever rate he felt like. And back then it was a selling point. People would go out of their way to get that fuel with the "high octane racing ethanol". (yes, there are still people goofy enough to believe that high octane is always better, NOT)
Anyway, he occasionally laughed and bragged about how they left the transfer hoses laying out in the rain and mud, that they would use to transfer ethanol out of the tanker into there transport trucks, and hope it all mixed together. And how that mud and water would never hurt anything. Then too there were the tow truck operators in the area that had a lot of stories about how people would fill their cars at these stations, and the cars would make it about a mile before they stopped running.

This same guy blended fuel for us to use in our model airplanes. I never bought any from him needless to say.

Generally speaking, I have had zero problems with ethanol in fuel. Even two stroke mix that has sat for a LONG time. But I still don't trust the people and systems that blend it.


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Offline steven c

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2015, 10:46:31 AM »
 I think a lot has to do with brand and what kind of plastic and rubber they used. On my Poulan saws the fuel line broke up and the carb had to be rebuilt, a farmer friend's tank would swell and the fuel lines also fell apart on his saw. My 72 Kawasaki F7 175 with oil injection runs fine though my clear fuel gets hard.
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Offline Mike Tashjian

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2015, 10:50:48 AM »
The cycling means you are a bit on the lean side. Storing the small blowers is always a key element on how they run the next season.  I always run them out of fuel and clean the carburetor bowl.  It only takes a tiny bit of crud in that small already main jet to restrict it a bit too much.  Too rich on the oil is also a way to run them too lean, so put the right amount in.  Icing is also a common problem on the the little blowers as there is no air filter to stop the snow from blowing right into the carb.  Running right the little blowers are very fast and will throw just about anything you get into the front of them.  Mike

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2015, 02:30:13 PM »
i assume the "cycling" means it runs a bit rough or sounds like it is missing a bit when not under a load but running wide open. if it then cleans up or sounds right when under a load it means the high speed jet is set right. when under a load they need more fuel than when not under a load. otherwise you can get a lean seizure.
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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2015, 03:09:03 PM »
I think Triple Jim is referring to 4 stroking .

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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2015, 03:48:32 PM »
My ex-wife's B750 sat three years in the garage with no additive. Ethanol/yes. Started right up and ran a little hesitant at first but then fine. Don't worry too much about a few months or your Toro.
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2015, 04:05:06 PM »
I think Triple Jim is referring to 4 stroking .

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Offline sign216

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2015, 04:10:03 PM »
My ex-wife's B750 sat three years in the garage with no additive. Ethanol/yes. Started right up and ran a little hesitant at first but then fine. Don't worry too much about a few months or your Toro.


Amazing.  Really.  You just can't kill those old-school Heron head 750 engines.
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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2015, 03:08:27 AM »
At my old job we used to have a crappy 4-stroke harbor freight generator (it was hard to get my boss to spend money on quality stuff) and the fuel lines all rotted away within a year.

Then we bought a diesel generator and those hoses rotted away within a year too. Damn cheap chinese made crap...

We did have a few Stihl 2-stroke weed wackers (buy 4-stroke, it's better), chain saws and a polesaw/trimmer. They never had any problem with the E10 fuel in 6 years of ownership.

Offline Nic in Western NYS

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2015, 08:38:22 AM »
93 octane (if anyone knows a source for non-ethanol gas in MA please let me know), Star-tron, and Stabil.  Until I went to that mix, I destroyed a couple of carbs.
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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2015, 08:50:45 AM »
it doesn't hurt to mix the brands and you can't over dose with too much.
the whole topic is like discussing ridding without a Helmut. you can ride fine without it until your luck runs out. It's better to be safe than sorry.
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Offline sign216

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2015, 10:37:47 AM »
(if anyone knows a source for non-ethanol gas in MA please let me know),

In Mass. the small, local airports sell av-gas without ethanol.  I tried getting some at Norwood airport and was rebuffed by the attendant. 

Anyone know of a friendly airport in greater Boston?
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Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2015, 10:44:25 AM »

Amazing.  Really.  You just can't kill those old-school Heron head 750 engines.

My brother's Ducati 907ie sat unused (inside a box truck) for three years and fired up with no problem. He had replaced all of the hoses with proper Gates stuff prior to storage though.

It's all about materials compatibility - using fuel hose, o-rings, gaskets, float needles, etc. that are ethanol resistant.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 11:06:40 AM by Antietam Classic Cycle »
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Offline Lannis

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2015, 12:00:29 PM »
In Mass. the small, local airports sell av-gas without ethanol.  I tried getting some at Norwood airport and was rebuffed by the attendant. 

Anyone know of a friendly airport in greater Boston?


When you say "friendly", do you mean an attendant who is willing to lose his job and be fined or go to jail for selling you untaxed gasoline when he has any reason to believe that you're going to use it on the road and not declare it on your tax forms?

I don't have any friends that good in the FBO business!

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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2015, 05:48:57 PM »

Amazing.  Really.  You just can't kill those old-school Heron head 750 engines.

Yep, she tucked it away when she had knee surgery (no Stabil), personal stuff went on for the next couple years, then she needed to take it away. I went out to start it and it started like it was yesterday when it ran last. Only when I took it out around the block did it sputter a bit, then ran fine after getting the stuff out of the line. She picked it up and road it quite a few miles. Ran fine. Tells me we worry too much as I hadn't a clue it would be fine.
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Offline Vince in Milwaukee

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2015, 06:04:03 PM »
i assume the "cycling" means it runs a bit rough or sounds like it is missing a bit when not under a load but running wide open. if it then cleans up or sounds right when under a load it means the high speed jet is set right. when under a load they need more fuel than when not under a load. otherwise you can get a lean seizure.

First off, I would like to thank everyone for their  help / input.  The above scenario is exactly what it's doing now that I have it running correctly again (it ran fine a month ago, but then again, there was no snow).  Earlier today it would run, but every time it hit snow, it would bog out and die.  Turns out the choke lever on the carb wasn't attached to the knob that you pull out to start the darn thing.  It also has a new spark plug and my next mix of gas and oil will be 93 octane.    
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 06:07:14 PM by Vince in Milwaukee »
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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix - RESOLVED!
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2015, 06:10:51 PM »
Earlier this year, my Stihl MS 250 wouldnt crank. I took it to a local shop and they told me the engine was scored. They told me ethanol was likely the problem and they had gotten more like mine this year. I had it for three years before I found out about Startron and by that I think the damage was done.

Offline Triple Jim

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Re: 2 stroke oil & ethanol gas mix - RESOLVED!
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2015, 06:39:19 PM »
Wow, I'm very surprised your Stihl engine had a problem like that.  I have an MS250 myself.  I've had it for at least ten years, and have always run it on E10 premium and a 50:1 oil mix using generic Walmart 2-stroke oil at around $12/gallon, and never used any additives.  It has cut 5 cords or more of firewood every winter, as well as doing yard work.  I don't think I've ever so much as changed the spark plug.  I keep the air filter clean, and once I had to replace the oil tank cap.

I'd look for something else that scored the cylinder, if it really was scored.  Or maybe the no-start was from a reed valve problem or an ignition problem?  Did you see the cylinder for yourself?  I've run 2-stroke engines with scored cylinders before, and they started fine, they just lacked full power.
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