1984 California II Convert

[vintagehoarder]

Going to look at one Tuesday, if I get it this will be our fourth Guzzi in the hoard.  Tell me what I need to know!  Thanks in advance.  Love the look of it with bags and top case.

[fotoguzzi]

that model has a distinct driveshaft not shared by any other Guzzi.. I'd inspect carefully the spline wear.. the part may not be available anymore too.

[brider]

How many miles on it? If it's stock (sounds like it by the mention of bags and top case...the bags are fragile and cracked easily if loaded a lot early in life), and under ~20k or so be very, very wary of an impending torque-converter pump-drive failure, same as on any Convert of similar mileage. Spline wear concern in the rear drive is no different than any other Tonti, in fact less so because the power delivery is so "soft", but the driveshaft IS unique. Mine has 44k miles on it and no problems.

The Cal II Auto will have the same general concerns as the Convert as far as the Auto Drive, I just mentioned on of them. BUT DON'T LET THAT STOP YOU FROM BUYING IT!!!! It's all easily fixable!! The Cal II Auto is about the most rare Tonti, although the prices don't reflect that. I think it's also the most comfortable on the open road, has the longest wheelbase of any Tonti I've been told.

[vintagehoarder]

Thank you fotoguzzi and brider, it has 40K on it and being looked over by my local Guzzi dealer who is also an Guzzi enthusiast.  So we'll see what's up tomorrow.

[kidsmoke]

 

[mtiberio]

dont let the ujoint scare you, you could always have a shorter one lengthened. I have had 1 or 2 cal II autos. they were fast but long, and the seat left a lot to be desired. I do love the motors however...

[bigbikerrick]

I have an 84Cal II auto, and absolutely love it. Some people say the Cal II is the best touring bike Guzzi has made. Its very smooth, and a long distance mile eater for sure. I have 40 K miles on mine, and it has been bulletproof.I have read that they are one of the rarest Guzzis, as far as numbers go, with something like 50 some bikes imported to the USA. A couple of things that are worth upgrading, are an adjustable voltage regulator helps keep the battery at proper charge, as the engine turns pretty slow when you are plodding around  town in high gear. I installed a Dyna III ignition, which IMHO is an important upgrade to not have to mess with the annoying dual point distributor, and get the timing perfect on the bike. I had the skunk seat re done by a local upholstery shop, using  a high density foam insert, and its very comfortable. It truly is a "magic carpet ride", and one of my favorite Guzzis.
Rick.

[Yeahoo Whoyah]

under ~20k or so be very, very wary of an impending torque-converter pump-drive failure

Is there a general mileage guideline for the stock Convert pump drive? Are they prone to failure around 20k? 15k? 10k?

[mtiberio]

Is there a general mileage guideline for the stock Convert pump drive? Are they prone to failure around 20k? 15k? 10k?

that was the early bikes. not cali IIs

[brider]

that was the early bikes. not cali IIs

I beg to differ, with all due respect to Mike's admittedly far greater knowledge of all things Guzzi than mine.

I believe Guzziology supports me on this, but I am operating on memory and have not cracked open that book in years. I think the pump-drive issue was not necessarily limited to the Converts, as the theory was that parts stocks for the Automatics was used up until depleted by building Cal II Autos, which would account for the extremely limited numbers, and the occasional Cal II failure. The flywheel issue was certainly corrected on the later Converts and all the Cal IIs, but my Cal II pump failed @ ~20k in the same manner as the '76 Convert I had, at about the same mileage.

I only mention this for future readers of this topic; if the one you're looking at has 40k miles, it either was built right from the start or was fixed in the past. It's most likely good-to-go (just don't allow it to backfire....there is discussion of this, and I paid the price because of it).

The stock seat is beautiful (in my opinion), but a torture device. I also had mine re-foamed and re-covered with OEM-style white panel, and it rivals the Convert seat for comfort, now.

It IS a magic-carpet ride! I also installed the Convert bars with the cross-brace, and combined with the seat and footboards, this thing is like sitting in your most relaxed position on your couch on a Sunday night watching baseball with a bag of chips and a beer by your side, gliding down the highway. "Roomy" is the best description.

[mtiberio]

I beg to differ, with all due respect to Mike's admittedly far greater knowledge of all things Guzzi than mine.

No sweat, I've been wrong, just never heard of a failure on a later auto til yours.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I experienced "pump drive failure" first hand this past Sunday. Coming back from the WNY Rally, climbing a steep grade just north of Punxsutawney, PA when suddenly the engine revs went up just as my road speed dropped dramatically. I knew immediately what had gone wrong. Made it over the crest of that hill and the next, barely made it though an intersection and finally into the parking lot of an Advance Auto. ATF was all "pink milkshake" and slightly scorched, so I knew my worst fear was confirmed.

Had lunch, made some calls to arrange "rescue" - Ralph and Lissie Poole along with Gerry Burskey came and trailered the bike back to Ralph's house. Joe Kenny was riding by before they arrived and stopped to see if he could help. Once at Ralph's, Gerry and I set about the repair - once the timing cover was removed, we found that the hex piece between the cam and pump was rounded on the pump end. I made a new hex piece from an allen wrench section and the bike was reassembled. Rode it home yesterday.

This was only 10k since I "resurrected" this Convert and had replaced that hex piece. The new hex piece fits well into the camshaft, but is a sloppy fit in the pump's "coupler". It wasn't like that 10k ago, which leads me to believe that the coupler may not have been properly heat treated at the factory. The bike now has only 28k miles on it. I'll be pulling my other three spare timing covers out of my stash and checking to see if one of them has a better coupler, one that hopefully has been properly heat treated.

[rodekyll]

The flywheel fix was in 76.  By 77 they should all have been shipped with the heavy wheel.

There have been no improvements made to the pump since the "screwdriver" coupling was replaced by the 6mm hex . There have been issues with the hardening on some runs of factory hex shafts, but as I've explained in the past, you are better off stripping it than the pieces it connects.  The shaft hardness isn't the design flaw. The problem is that 6mm is too small. 1/4" or 8mm would be better and they knew it, but making it right would have required a complete redesign of the pump, so they didn't do it right.

Bottom line is that the pump is always in the process of stripping.  Too much pressure will fail it slowly.  A significant backfire will fail it within a few hundred miles.  How long will it last?  I've failed mine in less than 2k from replacement from deliberately over pressing the system, and within 300 miles of a backfire.  I've also made better than 80k with no issues.  So like batteries, tires, and wimmins, you just can't predict.  And like batteries, tires, and wimmins, you treat them right and hope for the best.

I've gotten good at fixing mine by the side of the road, and with a half million miles on Converts, I've done a few.  As these bikes age, their owners should be prepared.  I carry the timing cover gasket, crank seal, some crush rings and a hex piece in my kit. 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Here's the failed "hex piece" from my Convert: 




I was doing a bit of reading in Guzziology on the subject and the part about early vs. late couplers caught my eye. Early (which I obviously have in the bike right now) only engage the hex piece about 8 mm on that end. Late couplers engage the hex piece 11 mm - two of my spares are the late type. 

However, those two late type couplers still don't engage the hex piece very well rotationally - that is the hex piece rotates ~ 20 degrees before the coupler begins to move. That seems like a lot of "slop" to me and could be a factor in the hex piece rounding off. The hex piece was also a little sloppy in the camshaft, but not nearly like it is in the coupler.

It seems like what I really need is a hex piece made to 6.1-6.2 mm vs. 6 mm. 1/4" (6.35 mm) is too large. A slightly oversized hex piece would get rid a nearly all of the slop, but would still allow for any possible misalignment between the coupler and camshaft. Along with the increased engagement length of the later coupler, I feel that it would make significant progress towards increased reliability.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Here's the failed "hex piece" from my Convert: 




I was doing a bit of reading in Guzziology on the subject and the part about early vs. late couplers caught my eye. Early (which I obviously have in the bike right now) only engage the hex piece about 8 mm on that end. Late couplers engage the hex piece 11 mm - two of my spares are the late type. 

However, those two late type couplers still don't engage the hex piece very well rotationally - that is the hex piece rotates ~ 20 degrees before the coupler begins to move. That seems like a lot of "slop" to me and could be a factor in the hex piece rounding off. The hex piece was also a little sloppy in the camshaft, but not nearly like it is in the coupler.

It seems like what I really need is a hex piece made to 6.1-6.2 mm vs. 6 mm. 1/4" (6.35 mm) is too large. A slightly oversized hex piece would get rid a nearly all of the slop, but would still allow for any possible misalignment between the coupler and camshaft. Along with the increased engagement length of the later coupler, I feel that it would make significant progress towards increased reliability.

So you are talking a ......240/.244 hex surface ground down from a .250" hex? That sounds doable. How long is it?

[fotoguzzi]

Yeah, could you just grind down a 1/4" hex to 6.2mm?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

So you are talking a ......240/.244 hex surface ground down from a .250" hex? That sounds doable. How long is it?

32 mm overall, but I really only need 12 mm ground down on one end and 10 on the other. I'll be talking to my machinist this week about doing it for me.

Yeah, could you just grind down a 1/4" hex to 6.2mm?

Yes, that's my plan.

[rodekyll]

So you are talking a ......240/.244 hex surface ground down from a .250" hex? That sounds doable. How long is it?

32.5mm, iirc.

[rodekyll]

Here's the failed "hex piece" from my Convert: 




I was doing a bit of reading in Guzziology on the subject and the part about early vs. late couplers caught my eye. Early (which I obviously have in the bike right now) only engage the hex piece about 8 mm on that end. Late couplers engage the hex piece 11 mm - two of my spares are the late type. 

However, those two late type couplers still don't engage the hex piece very well rotationally - that is the hex piece rotates ~ 20 degrees before the coupler begins to move. That seems like a lot of "slop" to me and could be a factor in the hex piece rounding off. The hex piece was also a little sloppy in the camshaft, but not nearly like it is in the coupler.

It seems like what I really need is a hex piece made to 6.1-6.2 mm vs. 6 mm. 1/4" (6.35 mm) is too large. A slightly oversized hex piece would get rid a nearly all of the slop, but would still allow for any possible misalignment between the coupler and camshaft. Along with the increased engagement length of the later coupler, I feel that it would make significant progress towards increased reliability.

The real problem is that 6mm is too small to take the driving force on the corners.  The viscosity of modern fluids isn't helping.  Either the corner stress needs to be relieved or the shaft needs to be bigger. 

The corner stress can be relieved by drilling out the corners of the female bits slightly, making the flats do more of the work.  That's how snap-on box end wrenches are designed to not round out hex heads. 

Ideally I'd like to do both --  make the bore larger (1/4"?) And relieve the corners.  Both are possible with EDM drilling.  I had a hydro cam drilled for the 6mm drive piece.  I would have done it bigger but I couldn't give them the spec for corner relief.  Cost would have been ~$100/pc.

[Chuck in Indiana]

32 mm overall, but I really only need 12 mm ground down on one end and 10 on the other. I'll be talking to my machinist this week about doing it for me.

Yes, that's my plan.

Even easier..

[vintagehoarder]

Wow thanks for all the info great stuff, I bought it yesterday pick it up in a week!  Would love to find a stock seat and OEM windshield anyone holding?

[mtiberio]

Wow thanks for all the info great stuff, I bought it yesterday pick it up in a week!  Would love to find a stock seat and OEM windshield anyone holding?

trust me you do not want the stock seat. give that one a try.

[brider]

WOW, that's clean! You scored a good one, and a good shop can alter the seat any way you like, but I might try 2-up riding just to see how comfy that seat is. If you're ACTUALLY going to tour on it, you'll be better off than the stock seat. Should be able to find a stock windshield with a little searching. I broke mine in a bonehead move with the garage door....still have the mounts, but went with a Califia fairing instead.

Wish mine was that clean. Somebody took care of that beauty.

[vintagehoarder]

WOW, that's clean! You scored a good one, and a good shop can alter the seat any way you like, but I might try 2-up riding just to see how comfy that seat is. If you're ACTUALLY going to tour on it, you'll be better off than the stock seat. Should be able to find a stock windshield with a little searching. I broke mine in a bonehead move with the garage door....still have the mounts, but went with a Califia fairing instead.

Wish mine was that clean. Somebody took care of that beauty.

It is clean, and has had a bunch of items gone through, and updated it has been well taken care of.  It came from a member of this site, who I also have another of his old bikes, so that gave me the confidence that it has been well taken care of.  Excited to go get it and put some miles on it.  Came with a nice top case as well.


Here is a couple more pics

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

If it helps, here's a source for a seat cover:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-California-Seat-Cover-New-Manufacture-GIVE-MODEL-DETAILS-WITH-ORDER/222300841710?hash=item33c229a6ee:g:zLUAAOSwZfNabb2z

Wonder why there's no dust wiper boots on the forks?

[guzzisteve]

trust me you do not want the stock seat. give that one a try.

:1:

[vintagehoarder]

If it helps, here's a source for a seat cover:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-California-Seat-Cover-New-Manufacture-GIVE-MODEL-DETAILS-WITH-ORDER/222300841710?hash=item33c229a6ee:g:zLUAAOSwZfNabb2z

Thanks for that link think I have access to a seat pan.

[vintagehoarder]

:1:

I would at least like to have it in addition to this one, our whole collection is more preservation (pure stock) than restoration, any real touring will probably be done on the 1400, except for a rally here and there.  Excited to pick it up and get down the road on it, this seat is VERY comfortable, just don't care for the lines/looks of it much.

[mtiberio]

I run my 35mm tonti forks with no dust seals most of the time.

[Yeahoo Whoyah]

Wonder why there's no dust wiper boots on the forks?

I don't remember who manufactured these covers or if they're still available.  They just wrap around the forks and are hook and loop secured. No need to dissemble the forks.  This might be an easy temporary fix.