B11 starting issues in cool weather

[rojopony]

Lately my Breva 1100 has been not wanting to start when the temperatures drop below 60-70 degrees. The starter engages but does not turn over. The battery is about 1.5 years old and is an AGM type battery.

Today I disconnected the battery charger which showed the battery to be 100% charged, the temperature was 60 degrees, voltage at the battery showed 12.6 - 12.7 at terminals and 12.1 on instrument display before engaging starter. When I hit the starter, I hear it engage and voltage reads 12.2 at battery and 11.6 on instrument display. Got thoroughly discussed  after checking all wires and not finding any issues and walked away from the bike for a few hours. After a few hours went by I flipped the ignition and instrument display showed 12.1 volts, I pressed the starter button and the damn thing started. The only thing that changed was when I first tried to start the bike the temp was 60 and when it started it was 70 degrees.

Not knowing much about AGM batteries I'm currently thinking that maybe the battery is weak when cold and thus bad or going bad. Has anyone else had issues with a battery on a B11 not starting the bike when cool? Not wanting to drop a Benjamin on a new battery if I don't have to. Also, the bike already has the direct wire to starter relay fix on it, so that is not an issue.

[old head]

check this out.  I did the MPH fix and haven't had a problem since I did it.  Very easy.  I never had a problem with cooler weather, but I was getting the click-click several times a week.  Since installation, not a single incident.

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=48127.0

Old Head

[jreagan]

No, that's a different problem.  The MPH harness is when there isn't enough voltage to engage the solenoid.  Plus, he stated that he already has the direct wire solution in place.

The problem here is that the starter is turning but the engine doesn't want to run.  So not enough fuel, spark or air.  Tried opening the gas cap?  Vent hose plugged?  Fuel pump running?

[dsenn]

You state "starter engages but does not turn over"  I take that to mean you hear the solonoid engage but does not turn the engine, if thats the case I would suspect there is something in the solonoid sticking when its cold and not allowing the plunger to move the full range to make the contact required to turn the starter. You may have to pull the starter and clean it up.

[DanR]

You state "starter engages but does not turn over"  I take that to mean you hear the solonoid engage but does not turn the engine, if thats the case I would suspect there is something in the solonoid sticking when its cold and not allowing the plunger to move the full range to make the contact required to turn the starter. You may have to pull the starter and clean it up.

Easy to prove or disprove, when it happens hold a hairdryer near the starter for a bit best done with the starter cover off, That's a hair dryer not a hot air gun.

[rojopony]

Yes, I do hear the solenoid engage but no turning over. The bike does start if jumped from another battery, which is why I'm thinking the battery is weak when it is cold due to not having enough amps available.

If I did pull the starter what would I be looking at cleaning? I did check the connections at the starter and ensured those were good as well as the connections at the battery.

The battery is about 1.5 years old and I don't have much experience with bike batteries, is 1.5 nearing its end of life?

[Kev m]

Charge battery and take it for a load test (when it's the same temp). Guessing is silly.

That said, there was a time when you'd be lucky to get two years from a bike batt, but unless horridly abused that time should be long gone.

Of course if it sits for weeks at a time or is defective who knows.

[toddhaven]

This has been a bane of mechanics/technicians for a long time.

Verify complaint.
Everyone says "the vehicle won't start".

Dead battery--no lights on dash, no gauge sweep on later bikes, no crank. no start.
Electrical fault-- key on, gauge sweep, hit starter button, hear click, but no starter engagement.
Fuel/Control issue, key on, gauge sweep, starter engages, cranks for about ten seconds, motor won't start.

These are important questions.   
It can be mind-numbingly difficult to walk people(particularly females driving BMW cars) through these questions.

Can't tell you how many times I have heard "It's doing the same thing! It won't start!"

[Zoom Zoom]

A static charge of 12.6 is marginal. After you charge it, turn on your headlight to bleed off the surface charge, then take your reading. It sounds to me like it is the battery. If it is an Odyssey, it should have a 2new year warranty.

[the Bailey]

These are important questions.   
It can be mind-numbingly difficult to walk people(particularly females driving BMW cars) through these questions.

 ;D

static charge of 12.6 for a wet cell is swell.  for an AGM its just ok.

[rojopony]

Okay did some more trials today. I went into garage the temp was 65F. Battery charger read the battery was fully charged. Took reading at battery and had 12.7 volts with ignition off and 12.6 with ignition on, instrument cluster read 12.1. Hit starter and got the typical starter engages but does not turn over. When the starter engages voltage at the battery drops very briefly to 11.2 and instrument cluster drops to 11.6/7.

Applied heat to battery with hair dryer for about 5 minutes. Voltage at the battery with ignition off gave me 13.35 volts and after turning ignition on it quickly dropped to 12.75 with instrument cluster reading 12.2. Try the starter, the same as before. When the starter engages voltage at the battery drops very briefly to 11.2 and instrument cluster drops to 11.6/7.

Hit the starter with about 5 minute warm-up with hair dryer to check out that suggestion. Voltage at the battery with ignition off gave me 13.3 volts and after turning ignition on it quickly dropped to 12.7 with instrument cluster reading 12.2. Try the starter, the same as before.

Also just to clarify, when ignition is turned on I get the gage sweep & Christmas light show, hear fuel pump spin up. When ignition is hit; dash lights dim slightly, ignition relay clicks, and starter engages but does not turn over.

After watching what happens to voltage when heat is applied I'm really leaning towards the battery going bad.

[Kev m]

I repeat: charge battey and load test. Tons of auto parts chains will do it for free. Then you'll know.

[rodekyll]

Try this:  As you are pressing the starter button, rap the solenoid on the starter with a hammer or rock or something.  Just a sharp rap.  If it responds to the physical shock, then it's a sticky solenoid/bendix issue with the starter.  If you have a reduction type starter it could be a problem in the gearbox.

In my opinion, the voltage drop when you hit the starter button is about right.  My AGM battery floats at about 12.7v and drops up to a volt as the starter is applied (headlight off).  It turns over reading 11.7 at 50ºf.  So I'm reluctant to suspect the battery.  As kev says though, it's easy enough to rule it out.  I get 8+ years out of Odyssey batteries.  Unless you've been doing something bad with yours, it's got a lot of service left in it.

So I'm putting my money on it being either a mechanical or power supply issue with the starter.  If whacking it doesn't jar it into action, then I'd pull each end of the battery wires, scuff up the terminals, and retighten everything.

The final, really odd thought is that you've got excessive compression, and with the piston in a particular spot the starter hasn't got enough ooompah to overcome it.  I had a 441 Victor like that.  You could drag the rear tire like the brake was on trying to push start it if the piston was in the wrong place.  You might try hand-turning the engine a little and trying again.

[BillinAbilene]

Today I disconnected the battery charger....Not knowing much about AGM batteries....

I re-read this thread and I must agree with Kev m that you really ought to load test the battery, just to either confirm it is the culprit, or, get it out of the decision tree.

I have to ask two questions.  First, are you leaving this battery on a battery charger or a battery tender (or neither)?  Leaving a battery on a battery charger for extended periods will, er, kill it!

Second question.  If you are leaving this on a battery tender, is it a battery tender designed to work with AGM batteries?  Battery tenders designed for wet cell batteries don't put out the amperage required to keep an AGM battery in good health (they put out about 1.5 to 2 Amps - not enough mojo).  AGM batteries require 3.0 Amps (IIRC).  Leaving a wet-cell tender on an AGM battery may lead to, well, I guess I don't know - but I don't think it's good.  I can't recall the specifics from the "white paper" that I read on the topic.  ::)  When I read the paper I decided that my old Sears battery charger couldn't handle "maintenance charging" of my new AGM battery; so I have a purchase to make before I put my bike up for the three months or so that it is just too cold to ride here.

So, I would suggest you load test the battery to determine if it's the culprit.  If it is, visit with a "true" battery expert about AGM batteries, battery tenders, and battery chargers.

Hope this helps!  If it doesn't, never mind.

[Zoom Zoom]

Are you still working on this? Did you figure out the trouble?

Zoom Zoom,
John Henry

[skippy]

I am having all of the same issues described herein, I tried the yellow jumper wire routine to no avail. So I would really like to know if there are any others with experience on this matter.
Skippy
 

[rojopony]

Sorry for no replies to this thread lately, between not figuring out a solution and reading other threads on this same subject I kind of lost track of this thread.

I've been doing a lot of on and off again diagnostics in trying to figure my puzzle out. Here is rundown of what I've done:

1) Load tested original battery it tested as acceptable.
2) Since solenoid always clicks, checked to see if voltage ever came from the solenoid to starter and could not detect any which lead me to believing solenoid was bad.
3) Bought new starter (Chinese clone) as the price of solenoid was over half the price of new starter. Put new starter on, still get same results.
4) Bought new battery, its the only major component I've not replaced in the equation at this point. Still  no starting.

Started to probe the starter relay to see what it was doing. The relay has 4 wires: Yellow which is the power line that drives the starter solenoid. This wire is hot when ignition is tuned on. This is also the wire that many just splice into battery. Yellow-Orange battery is the wire that goes to the starter solenoid to activate the starter, it is supposed to become hot when starter button is pushed. Brown wire I believe comes from the ECU and is live when ignition is turned on. Finally the black wire is the relay trigger wire from the ECU, it triggers the relay when it gets a connection to ground.

Here are some findings I've gathered from using a test light vs. volt meter with the relay: If I touch the test light to the black wire the starter will engage and start the bike, no matter if yellow wire is connected to stock wiring or a battery bypass. If the yellow-orange wire is disconnected from the starter and connected to test probe, the test probe will light for about 4-5 seconds when starter button is pressed. If the yellow-orange wire is connected to starter the test probe will only produce faint flash of light when starter button is pressed and all I get is solenoid engaging but no starting.

I right now can only think of 2 things that could be wrong: 1 – The starter relay is of the resistor variety and maybe the resistor is shot which is inducing noise into starter circuit and causing the ECU to disconnect shortly after starter button is pressed. 2 – The ECU has lost its mind somehow and stopping the starting process. I REALLY hope it is not the ECU!

If anyone has a starting B1100 or a new relay maybe someone could measure the resistance across the silver contacts of the relay (Black & Brown wire connections) and tell me what it is. I can test and compare mine and see if this may be the issue. The relay and ECU are only components left that I've not replaced.

[rodekyll]

It points to the relay IMO.

I don't know what the b11 wiring looks like, but I bet there's a relay you could swap with the starter relay to see what happens.  Maybe a headlight relay or something like that.  On my bike there's a bunch of identical ones I can swap around to find a bad one.  OEM relays have a reputation.  I've had to replace several over the years.  It's a good place to look.

Along with the relay itself, look at the relay blocks.

[uncle]

I would check your ground from the battery to the block.  Disconnect the ground and clean up the connections and replace. I had a similar situation on my Griso a couple years back.  Good Luck!

[rojopony]

All connections are clean on both ends of positive and negative lines. I'm going to try and find OEM relay next.

RP

[Kiwi_Roy]

I just looked at carl's drawing of the 05 Breva
The start circuit is from battery - main fuse - ignition switch - fuse B - start relay - start solenoid

Do this simple test
Make sure the bike is in Neutral
Take a jumper lead from the solenoid coil terminal and touch it on the battery positive terminal
Does it crank?
If it does my moneys on dirty ignition switch contacts.  oops just fixed a typo PM Sent
Report back

Roy

[Kiwi_Roy]

I re read your earlier test results, great troubleshooting BTW. I will comment on each one - Roy

1) Load tested original battery it tested as acceptable.
So we can rule out the battery
2) Since solenoid always clicks, checked to see if voltage ever came from the solenoid to starter and could not detect any which lead me to believing solenoid was bad.
So the solenoids energised but not closing
3) Bought new starter (Chinese clone) as the price of solenoid was over half the price of new starter. Put new starter on, still get same results.
Send the starter back then
4) Bought new battery, its the only major component I've not replaced in the equation at this point. Still  no starting.
We already ruled out the battery

Started to probe the starter relay to see what it was doing. The relay has 4 wires: Yellow which is the power line that drives the starter solenoid. This wire is hot when ignition is tuned on. This is also the wire that many just splice into battery. Yellow-Orange battery is the wire that goes to the starter solenoid to activate the starter, it is supposed to become hot when starter button is pushed. Brown wire I believe comes from the ECU and is live when ignition is turned on. Finally the black wire is the relay trigger wire from the ECU, it triggers the relay when it gets a connection to ground.

Here are some findings I've gathered from using a test light vs. volt meter with the relay: If I touch the test light to the black wire the starter will engage and start the bike, no matter if yellow wire is connected to stock wiring or a battery bypass.
Your lamp is pulling in the relay

 If the yellow-orange wire is disconnected from the starter and connected to test probe, the test probe will light for about 4-5 seconds when starter button is pressed.
So the relays pulling in as it's supposed to, this rules out a problem with the ECU ;-T

 If the yellow-orange wire is connected to starter the test probe will only produce faint flash of light when starter button is pressed and all I get is solenoid engaging but no starting.
The starter solenoid is loading the circuit down and you are loosing the Voltage through resistance between battery and the Yellow Orange wire.
You think the solenoid is engaging but in reality it's only just pulling in breifly or part way. The lamp should light up same as when you tried it with the starter disconnected, perhaps not quite so bright.
The starter solenoid want's to draw about 50 Amps so just a small amount of resistance is too much, for example 1/2 Ohm will limit the current to 24 Amps

I right now can only think of 2 things that could be wrong: 1 – The starter relay is of the resistor variety and maybe the resistor is shot which is inducing noise into starter circuit and causing the ECU to disconnect shortly after starter button is pressed. 2 – The ECU has lost its mind somehow and stopping the starting process. I REALLY hope it is not the ECU!
I doubt it's the relay but you can do a few more tests - put your test lamp on the yellow wire, it should light up and stay bright as you try to start, if not then you need to look further back.

Here's my gut feeling
The grease in the ignition switch has gone hard over the years, it tends to hold the contacts apart, perhaps not actually apart but it takes the tension off the contacts, this of course would be worse when cold. This is an intermittent thing, sometimes it will start, sometimes not which throws you off.
It could also be a bad connection in the relay base as Rorykyll points out sometimes the connectors spread apart and just make a slight contact, with the relay pins. With the heavy current that flows to the solenoid everything has to be tight.

Here's what I suggest
1/  Test the starter (and the battery) by jumpering from starter solenoid to battery Positive, leave the key off and bike in neutral of course.
2/  Monitor the yellow wire at the relay with your test lamp, it should stay bright while trying to start.
3/  If step 2 fails try monitoring either side of fuse B  (that could also have a bad connection)
4/  If the Voltage at fuse B dips then look at the ignition switch.

My Rant
The starter circuit should never have to go through the ignition switch and it's associated wiring, the starter solenoid pulls 50 Amps
Ignition switches should be cleaned every year or so with fresh vaseline applied.

[skippy]

Thanks Kiwi_Roy,
I am going to clean my ignition switch.
Skippy

[Bisbonian]

You know, I swore I had a battery issue, symptoms seemed to be similar to what you're experiencing if I read it right.

This weekend I took both the battery cables off and gave them a GOOD cleaning.  I used some contact cleaner on the ends and then sanded the ends as well to ensure that there was no sort of buildup on the cable.

While the negative didn't appear to have any corrosion on it I felt better when the contact area was a bright copper color rather than the dull brown it had become.  The positive cable looked great from above but I found it had a bit of green corrosion on the underside when I pulled it off.  The positive is the more difficult of the two to check as it's hooked into the fuse block so I really needed to work to get to the bottom where the connection contacts the battery.

I've been sick the past few days and so haven't been out real early but when I do get out to the garage the bike now starts right up whereas previously it hadn't started for a straight week.

Maybe I missed it in your post (I'm sick and having a hard time comprehending what I read at the moment) but I haven't seen where you did a good cleaning of the contacts.

[rojopony]

Its been awhile, but finally have the starting problem fixed - kind of... After going through everything everyone had suggested I had to take time and walk away from the problem for a few weeks as I had a VERY DEEP desire to take a Big F@#$ing Hammer and reduce the entire bike to a small very  and dense cube of plastic, steel and aluminium.

After regaining some of my composure I started going over everything again to include the two major components I replaced, the battery and starter. Starting with the battery I went back to the website of the manufacturer (Shorai) of the battery to double check some of the statistics of the battery. I discovered that Shorai had changed the recommended battery from a LFX18 series to a LFX21 series. Upon this discovery, I was a bit ticked off but decided to contact the manufacturer and find if the LFX18 was an insufficient battery and if it would be possible to somehow get the new battery they now recommended. Props have to go out to Shorai as they made good and got me the LFX21 battery. Upon receiving and installing the new battery, the bike fired right up.

Now to the kind of fixed... The new battery works great as long as temperatures are 60F+. I've noticed a new thread where some others are experiencing issues with Lithium batteries in cooler weather. The cold weather situation can be on other bikes be mitigated by placing a high amp load briefly such as running headlight for a short period of time to wake the battery, but unfortunately with the big Breva no high load drains can be accomplished prior to starting. I've resorted to occasionally using a cheap $1.95 microwave heating pack from Walmart warmed in the microwave and then place against the battery for 10-15 minutes to warm the battery up to point that the bike will start after a couple of attempts.

I think the biggest frustration with the starting system on this bike lies in the ECU. Truly I think the threshold upon which the ECU determines if the starting sequence is to work is set too high and needs to be lowered as I've found the battery could actually turn the engine over even when the ECU thought the opposite. Lowering the starting sequence threshold would probably save CARC bike rider plenty of money by not having to replace batteries that still have life left in them.

[Wayne Orwig]

I think the biggest frustration with the starting system on this bike lies in the ECU. Truly I think the threshold upon which the ECU determines if the starting sequence is to work is set too high and needs to be lowered as I've found the battery could actually turn the engine over even when the ECU thought the opposite. Lowering the starting sequence threshold would probably save CARC bike rider plenty of money by not having to replace batteries that still have life left in them.

The ECU does NOT have a voltage threshold as some have assumed. The poor wiring through the ignition switch simply didn't supply enough to pull the solenoid at lower voltage.

If you haven't corrected the starter relay wiring yet, expect to continue to have trouble.

[Kev m]

Wayne, end of first post said he had the direct wire starter relay fix.

[Wayne Orwig]

Wayne, end of first post said he had the direct wire starter relay fix.

The first post also states he has an AGM battery. Then later he talks about a different Shorai lithium battery.

[Kev m]

The first post also states he has an AGM battery. Then later he talks about a different Shorai lithium battery.

Well it's not like he'd unwire the relay to replace the battery  :BEER:

If you're like me I had to reskim the old thread to get back up to speed.

If you do you'll see op has been shotgunning it (throwing parts at the problem) rather than performing diagnostics.

A battery (and a new starter) were among the parts.

[Kiwi Dave]

I had a similar problem with my B11 and a new AGM (Motobatt) battery last year.  Swapped it for one out of my 1200 Sport and no further problems with either bike.  And yes, I had gone through the battery terminal cleaning, starter relay bypass, and ground terminal cleaning, as well as the starter itself.

Can't explain what was going on, but I suggest you try a lead acid battery as originally fitted, and see what happens.