Author Topic: NGC Reg/rec unit failures  (Read 567 times)

Offline Canuck750

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NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« on: May 29, 2023, 03:20:32 PM »
I have been struggling with the 12v charging system on my 1979 Moto Morini 500 bike, this has a two wire / single phase stator. The stator is putting out around 55 AC volts at 4500 rpm so I assume that is sufficient to keep a battery charged provided the rectifier completes the conversion to DC volts and the Regulator keeps the voltage in range.

I have tried three different single phase regulators; two of the Ducati Energia 343142type and a third with no makers mark. These are pretty simple looking devices, the stator wires connect to the two terminals marked G and the output is form a terminal stamped C to the fuse box switched power side, casting of reg/rec is grounded to frame.

I get no DC voltage increase with the multi-meeter reading across the battery terminals with the motor revved to 4500 ~ 5000 rpm. I tried connecting the reg/rec output lead directly to battery positive and still nothing.

This has really got me stumped. I can't find anything online to test the single phase rec/rec units with a multi-meter.

There are several inexpensive single phase 12V reg/rec units on Ebay that I could give a try. Anyone have experience with this type of stator / charging system that can offer some tips?






48 Guzzi Airone, 57 Guzzi Cardellino, 65 Benelli 200 sprite, 66 Aermacchi Sprint, 68 Gilera 106 SS, 72 Eldorado, 72 Benelli 180, 74 Guzzi 750S, 73 Laverda SF1, 74  Benelli 650S, 75 Ducati 860GT, 75 Moto Morini 3-1/2, 78 Moto Morinii 500

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2023, 07:22:50 AM »
When you are not getting any charge power, measure the AC voltage. If it is low, maybe the rotor magnet is simply toast.
Are the rotor and stator clean? Rust on them can weaken the output.
Some regulators require the 12 volt input to activate the thyristors, are you supplying the 12V?

Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Online Frenchfrog

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2023, 09:26:14 AM »
This link to another thread might be useful Canuck
https://www.morini-riders-club.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=17575

Also NLM in the Uk (now  Lusso veloce) might have the right bits or know what works https://www.lussoveloce.com/about. As you probably know they are/were the UK Moto Morini specialists.

Offline Canuck750

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2023, 10:54:58 AM »
When you are not getting any charge power, measure the AC voltage. If it is low, maybe the rotor magnet is simply toast.
Are the rotor and stator clean? Rust on them can weaken the output.
Some regulators require the 12 volt input to activate the thyristors, are you supplying the 12V?

AC charge power is over 50 V, rotor is very clean
48 Guzzi Airone, 57 Guzzi Cardellino, 65 Benelli 200 sprite, 66 Aermacchi Sprint, 68 Gilera 106 SS, 72 Eldorado, 72 Benelli 180, 74 Guzzi 750S, 73 Laverda SF1, 74  Benelli 650S, 75 Ducati 860GT, 75 Moto Morini 3-1/2, 78 Moto Morinii 500

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2023, 10:54:58 AM »

Offline Canuck750

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2023, 10:56:02 AM »
This link to another thread might be useful Canuck
https://www.morini-riders-club.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=17575

Also NLM in the Uk (now  Lusso veloce) might have the right bits or know what works https://www.lussoveloce.com/about. As you probably know they are/were the UK Moto Morini specialists.

Great info thanks! I have asked this question on the Morini Riders Forum as well, hopefully some responses today
48 Guzzi Airone, 57 Guzzi Cardellino, 65 Benelli 200 sprite, 66 Aermacchi Sprint, 68 Gilera 106 SS, 72 Eldorado, 72 Benelli 180, 74 Guzzi 750S, 73 Laverda SF1, 74  Benelli 650S, 75 Ducati 860GT, 75 Moto Morini 3-1/2, 78 Moto Morinii 500

Online Frenchfrog

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2023, 11:50:01 AM »
Great ! Fingers crossed you can easely sort it out

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2023, 12:32:53 PM »
IIRC, this is the reg/rect. that I used on my Morini 350 K2 when it's original stator failed and was replaced with one from an Excalibur:
https://roadstercycle.com/Shindengen%20Mosfet%20Regulator%20about.htm
Charlie

Offline Groover

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2023, 01:24:57 PM »
I think that is the same rectifier used on the early P200e Vespa - you may want to check around in that group. I have a P200e in storage, but haven't messed with the electronics on that one.

See if this post helps:

https://modernvespa.com/forum/topic67686
« Last Edit: May 30, 2023, 01:28:56 PM by Groover »
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Offline Canuck750

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2023, 03:44:56 PM »
The answer I got back form the Morini site is that the single phase Ducati regulator is connected as follows:

Two yellow wires from stator to terminals G - G
Terminal C connects with a brown wire to fuse box where cluster of brown (switched + from ignition key)
Terminal R+B - red wire to fuse battery + via fuse box
Ground reg/rec to frame

Done that on all three reg/rec I have and no change, absolute no DC voltage getting to battery from reg/rec.

With everything connected I touch my multi-meter probes to the two yellow wires connections from the stator and I get around 19V AC at idle and quickly get up to 55 ~ 60 V AC at 5000+ rpm, so I can hopefully rule out the stator being the problem. There is something not working with the rectifier. I understand that the Ducati reg/rec needs a 12V power source to function (the brown wire from terminal R+B to fuse box), what I don;t understand is how there can be zero DC current coming out of the reg/rec. I tried attaching the R+B wire direct to battery + and nothing changed.

I have searched how to test a reg/rec on the shelf but don't seem to be able to find any simple multi-meter test to check if the unit is fried.

Maybe, though it sure seem strange, I had three duff reg/rec units??

I ordered a cheap single phase reg/rec online last night with hopes it may solve my problems
48 Guzzi Airone, 57 Guzzi Cardellino, 65 Benelli 200 sprite, 66 Aermacchi Sprint, 68 Gilera 106 SS, 72 Eldorado, 72 Benelli 180, 74 Guzzi 750S, 73 Laverda SF1, 74  Benelli 650S, 75 Ducati 860GT, 75 Moto Morini 3-1/2, 78 Moto Morinii 500

Offline moto-uno

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2023, 04:26:38 PM »
  Over the years (on single phase, permanent magnet rotors) I've taken to installing H-D voltage regulators
The units had a rubber plug with 2 leads that connect to the 2 output leads from the stator
And a separate long lead to connect to the battery positive . It grounds through the body and has
Numerous cooling fins . Simple bullet proof available at any Harley dealer. Also
Done it to many old brit bikes by simply reversing battery grounds also. Look into the years with
the 20 plus amp output and only 2 inputs from the alternator. Peter

Offline Canuck750

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2023, 04:54:54 PM »
  Over the years (on single phase, permanent magnet rotors) I've taken to installing H-D voltage regulators
The units had a rubber plug with 2 leads that connect to the 2 output leads from the stator
And a separate long lead to connect to the battery positive . It grounds through the body and has
Numerous cooling fins . Simple bullet proof available at any Harley dealer. Also
Done it to many old brit bikes by simply reversing battery grounds also. Look into the years with
the 20 plus amp output and only 2 inputs from the alternator. Peter

Thanks Peter

is this what you are suggesting?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/333463508538?hash=item4da3f9563a:g:ZwsAAOSwhiJeCw4c&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4E0jqgGQW5EWImFrVE6wA3DCyMKBgSnOQxQ5sLzUAjWELvW8abP3qssAHb%2FB7HX0ZHg10zG3msb4NyJIKYFWNhYBt2Si8%2B%2BtAkIlsGwvCuZKnAxnADmcL1oNm50ZJyDdpP5noxPmyjM33R2wirhv9CLvNuVIC4JiB8IY%2BHxFyxkN%2BFShlNeTJlyQtL9oQjqwCDmYppg%2Fx%2BqkqwzhKSSctLOB3P8kv9%2FQgpN4p8r53UC0A%2BPnwEam6j4prgJQa10Kuq1lFg%2FR6mLAGH3cFXgCKQ1r2%2FJEYaeb0D%2BwVldoTT2w%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_j2x-qNYg
« Last Edit: May 30, 2023, 04:59:54 PM by Canuck750 »
48 Guzzi Airone, 57 Guzzi Cardellino, 65 Benelli 200 sprite, 66 Aermacchi Sprint, 68 Gilera 106 SS, 72 Eldorado, 72 Benelli 180, 74 Guzzi 750S, 73 Laverda SF1, 74  Benelli 650S, 75 Ducati 860GT, 75 Moto Morini 3-1/2, 78 Moto Morinii 500

Offline huub

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2023, 01:56:23 AM »
i change the regulators on my morini's for shindengen mosfet regulators
( actually cheap chinese clones of the shindengen)
On my morini's the regulators failed at some time , usually when i was riding in the dark  :angry:
So now i change them just for reliability sake.

Offline Sye

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2023, 02:01:08 AM »
This page goes through how to test the diodes and may be of help: https://www.jdpower.com/motorcycles/shopping-guides/how-to-know-if-regulator-rectifier-is-bad

Offline Canuck750

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2023, 08:58:50 AM »
i change the regulators on my morini's for shindengen mosfet regulators
( actually cheap chinese clones of the shindengen)
On my morini's the regulators failed at some time , usually when i was riding in the dark  :angry:
So now i change them just for reliability sake.

Thank you for replying, your experience with Moto Morini is invaluable.

I ordered one of these Spark Moto units, cheap (Guzzi content) hope it works!

http://www.sparckmoto.com/Products/Detail/7

I am going to look for a Harley Davidson two pin single phase reg/rec as well as per Peterís recommendations.

Charlie recommends the same reg/rec unit you have used. I looked the type up online, a couple YouTube videos discussing them. Can you describe how to wire the unit? I read they are three phase but can function as single phase as well. My electric understanding is very, very basic, I just learned what a single and three phase is this week.
48 Guzzi Airone, 57 Guzzi Cardellino, 65 Benelli 200 sprite, 66 Aermacchi Sprint, 68 Gilera 106 SS, 72 Eldorado, 72 Benelli 180, 74 Guzzi 750S, 73 Laverda SF1, 74  Benelli 650S, 75 Ducati 860GT, 75 Moto Morini 3-1/2, 78 Moto Morinii 500

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2023, 01:13:23 PM »
AC charge power is over 50 V, rotor is very clean

The stator voltage is not an indication of the stator CURRENT. Although it usually means things are good, it doesn't always mean that they are.

Measure the stator voltage while connected and it should be charging. If the stator AC is still close to 50V, then the regulator is not turning on for some reason. If the voltage is closed to say 15V AC, then it should be on and sending out current to the battery, but maybe there is not enough current.

Another thing you can do is measure the stator current. If you don't have a large enough ammeter, it is easy to just put a piece of wire in as a shunt. As in, short out the stator with a one foot piece of 18 awg or so wire. Measure the AC voltage drop across that piece of wire. Look up the resistance for that piece of wire and you have the current.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2023, 01:25:00 PM by Wayne Orwig »
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Offline Canuck750

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2023, 02:34:47 PM »
The stator voltage is not an indication of the stator CURRENT. Although it usually means things are good, it doesn't always mean that they are.

Measure the stator voltage while connected and it should be charging. If the stator AC is still close to 50V, then the regulator is not turning on for some reason. If the voltage is closed to say 15V AC, then it should be on and sending out current to the battery, but maybe there is not enough current.

Another thing you can do is measure the stator current. If you don't have a large enough ammeter, it is easy to just put a piece of wire in as a shunt. As in, short out the stator with a one foot piece of 18 awg or so wire. Measure the AC voltage drop across that piece of wire. Look up the resistance for that piece of wire and you have the current.

With engine running, reg/rec connected, the voltage from the stator wires at 5000 ~ 6000 rpm is 60 V AC
48 Guzzi Airone, 57 Guzzi Cardellino, 65 Benelli 200 sprite, 66 Aermacchi Sprint, 68 Gilera 106 SS, 72 Eldorado, 72 Benelli 180, 74 Guzzi 750S, 73 Laverda SF1, 74  Benelli 650S, 75 Ducati 860GT, 75 Moto Morini 3-1/2, 78 Moto Morinii 500

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2023, 05:56:24 PM »
With engine running, reg/rec connected, the voltage from the stator wires at 5000 ~ 6000 rpm is 60 V AC

So the regulator is not passing the output to the battery.
Bad diodes, bad thyristors, or not wired right.
Sounds like you need a different regulator.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline huub

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2023, 04:31:17 AM »
Thank you for replying, your experience with Moto Morini is invaluable.

I ordered one of these Spark Moto units, cheap (Guzzi content) hope it works!

http://www.sparckmoto.com/Products/Detail/7

I am going to look for a Harley Davidson two pin single phase reg/rec as well as per Peterís recommendations.

Charlie recommends the same reg/rec unit you have used. I looked the type up online, a couple YouTube videos discussing them. Can you describe how to wire the unit? I read they are three phase but can function as single phase as well. My electric understanding is very, very basic, I just learned what a single and three phase is this week.

the single fase  regulator/rectifier should work fine, looks like the ones i order from china.
I try to use the mosfet ones ( F in the shindengen part number) because they do not heat up as much.
just a warning :
morini's run fine with a bad battery or even without a battery. , ( as you know the ignition is off a separate coil)
but if you do the regulator has to burn the whole generator output,  130 watt , which causes it to overheat.
having it buried somewhere behind a cover doesnt help.
so you can start any morini without a battery in a emergency , but if you do so you should disconnect the generator.

Offline Canuck750

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Re: NGC Reg/rec unit failures
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2023, 04:48:19 PM »
the single fase  regulator/rectifier should work fine, looks like the ones i order from china.
I try to use the mosfet ones ( F in the shindengen part number) because they do not heat up as much.
just a warning :
morini's run fine with a bad battery or even without a battery. , ( as you know the ignition is off a separate coil)
but if you do the regulator has to burn the whole generator output,  130 watt , which causes it to overheat.
having it buried somewhere behind a cover doesnt help.
so you can start any morini without a battery in a emergency , but if you do so you should disconnect the generator.

Thanks Huub

My 500 has been converted to a Sasche electronic battery / coil ignition, the original Ducati Energia system (same as was originally fitted on my 1975 Ducati 860GT) has been removed so I can no longer start the bike without a battery. I hope Westcounty Windings rewound the stator correctly, I expect the replacement chinese reg/rec to show up next week.
48 Guzzi Airone, 57 Guzzi Cardellino, 65 Benelli 200 sprite, 66 Aermacchi Sprint, 68 Gilera 106 SS, 72 Eldorado, 72 Benelli 180, 74 Guzzi 750S, 73 Laverda SF1, 74  Benelli 650S, 75 Ducati 860GT, 75 Moto Morini 3-1/2, 78 Moto Morinii 500


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