Auto engine direct injection question

[redrider90]

Anybody with knowledge/experience with direct injection (non port) engines in a car?
 I have a 2011 Sonata with a 2.4L GDI engine at 70K miles. Hyundai keeps telling you this engine need additive at every oil change which I have never done.
 Note: I have used the dealer for all but the last oil change because this engine is subject to recall due to machining problems at the factory in Alabama. They didn't wash the blocks out correctly and had many engine failures. I wanted a log to prove that had the oil changed on a regular schedule.
 But I started having a little oil consumption issues 1 quart/3K miles. I had an oil analysis run at Blackstone in Fort Wayne. Interestingly the found very low metals in my oil which is good news and said they were not concerned with 1Quart/3K miles. I disagree. That said they found negligible, 2º volatile compounds. This was not a major concern but considered the upper limits of normal.
This led me to look into why there was 2º gas in my oil. So a lot of talk on direct injection engines having poor ignition on the backside of the intake valves resulting with carbon build up.
 I saw numerous photos of intake very dirty intake valves on various D.I. engines. After treatment with any variety of spray cleaners ex. CRC Direct injection cleaner where you spray the full contents of the can into the throttle body in a running engine at 2K RPMs. Shut the engine off and let it sit and hour and then take it out for a run at highway speeds. Lots of photos showed noticeable improvement in carbon build up. Others piped in that their cars ran much better including MPG after treatment. I have never been someone to throw stuff in my gas tank. This is a different approach and there seems to be a lot of info on the D.I. design is a problem for intake valves. Before I did all this research I had documented a recent drop in mileage (2 MPG) in around town rural driving which led me lead me to D.I. carbon build up in intake valves.
Any info would be appreciated.

[Two Checks]

It can't hurt.
After using the cleaner and driving the car change the spark plugs and oil.

[rocker59]

1 quart to 3,000 miles is pretty good...

 

[redrider90]

1 quart to 3,000 miles is pretty good...

That's good to hear. I've got a Honda 2002 civic with 120K that doesn't burn any oil. So maybe my expectation are too high.

[Madtownguzzi]

Adding a treatment to the gas tank is a waste of money with direct injection as the fuel mixture never is in contact with the back side of the valves where the carbon build up forms. Port injection the fuel mixture keeps the valves clean.
Here is a good YouTube on the problems of direct injection.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrLNDgrIw3U

[Bisbee]

BMW says to remove the intake manifold and blast the valves with walnut shells. A lot of work for a problem that was never realized until too late. The inlet air is filtered but the crankcase recirculating system deposits onto the intake valves. Keep up with the CRC and run to the redline . Work it hard. That’s the beauty of a manual gearbox. Most auto trans let the motor slog around and become gunked  up.

[LarryinKC]

My wife bought a Veloster Turbo that has a GDI motor. There is a lot of info available about the valve deposit problem on the web. I read a lot and Pennzoil Platinum Euro L seems to be one of the better oils to keep the intake valves cleaner. I also put Radium brand catch cans on both of the PCV hoses, the one that goes to the intake tube is the only one that ends up with oil in it.  So far all is good.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/buying-maintenance/a27182434/how-oil-catch-can-works/

[pressureangle]

I'm going to be the hillbilly on this thread...

Back 'in the day' when we were dumb kids racing around in old cars, intake deposits was a big problem with dragstrip engines used on the street; big overlap cams blew crap back into the intake tract. Bad valve guides and seals drooled Dinosaur oil onto valves hot enough to make it stick but never hot enough to burn it off. Sometimes a brick of crap would shake off and get stuck under the valve, losing the cylinder until it broke up.

We quite by accident one lubricated evening discovered that if you got the engine up to temp and held the throttle WOT while pouring cold beer down it's throat fast enough to keep it from exploding, the temp differential cracked all the crud off the intakes and blew it out the exhaust.

I assume cold water would work as well- but I cannot take responsibility for what else may happen in a modern, zero clearance motor or catalytic exhaust system. It's probably not in the Hyundai service manual.

Enjoy.

[redrider90]

My wife bought a Veloster Turbo that has a GDI motor. There is a lot of info available about the valve deposit problem on the web. I read a lot and Pennzoil Platinum Euro L seems to be one of the better oils to keep the intake valves cleaner. I also put Radium brand catch cans on both of the PCV hoses, the one that goes to the intake tube is the only one that ends up with oil in it.  So far all is good.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/buying-maintenance/a27182434/how-oil-catch-can-works/

Many manufactures are voiding warranties if you install a can canister.

[Moparnut72]

I've never heard of using beer.     However using water is a standard procedure, not enough to hydrolock the motor though. You are actually steam cleaning the cylinders. That is one way we tell on outboard motors if the lower seal is shot, it lets cooling water into the bottom cylinder which will as clean as can be.
kk

[LarryinKC]

Many manufactures are voiding warranties if you install a can canister.

I will remove it before it goes back to the dealer.

[pat80flh]

Automatic transmission fluid works to decarbon also.  Back in the 70's GM had this problem, carbon build up on top of the piston would make the motor sound like the bottom end was shot. Pour a quart of ATF down the throat of a running engine, holding the throttle around 2k, shit it off, wait a couple hours and drive it. Hope you're near a freeway because it will smoke like crazy for a few miles.
   GM now sells "Top Engine Cleaner" in a can that does the same thing, but no more carb throats. There are also aftermarket set ups that will drip a solution in through a vacuum line to clean carbon deposits. No methods are 100%, the walnut shell blasting does pretty well but you have to pull the intake and you can't quite reach the backs of the valves, not sure how it would work on a V8

[Two Checks]

No carbs but there are still throttle bodies. Just spray your stuff in downstream of the mass airflow sensor.
Some TBs don't like some solvents as I understand there is a coating that will be removed.

[Noguzznoglory]

Most manufacturers published standard for excessive oil consumption is 1 qt in 750 miles or thereabouts

GDI motors are prone to carbon buildup on the intake valves and in the intake stream. Adding a fuel additive each oil change has been recommended along with using premium fuel. A good brand of fuel with additives also helps.
Owners manual may have some info on fuel or additives

[bodine99]

Look up BG Products. I'm a retired GM tech, Used tons of their products for EFI-TBI induction issues. Started in the mid 80's deposits on the back side of the valves caused drive ability issues. On the intake side the cold start the fuel would get sucked into the deposits like a sponge. Car would fire stall fire stall till enough fuel would would finally get in and keep it running. The fix was a direct top end douche through the fuel rail service port. Then tell the cust. to run a few tanks with the 44K through. On TBI we would slowly pour straight into the throttle body air horn. Not sure about oil additive but GM used to sell EOS which was a ZZDP additive

[lucky phil]

The best solution by far to clean the back of the inlet valves on Direct Injection engines is crushed walnut shell blasting. Turn the engine over until the valves are closed on the cylinder being cleaned with the inlet manifold off install the tool together with the vacuum and blasting fitting and clean the valves. Comes up like brand new. You can even do this at home with the tool if you have a compressor and a vacuum.
Throwing concoctions down the inlet is well, not the best solution esp in a turbo engine where any dislodged material goes into the turbine wheel.
The walnut shell solution works perfectly and even if you dont get all the residue out it wont harm anything upon start up, but with the valves closed and the vacuum you can get it all out anyway.   

Ciao   

[redrider90]

Look up BG Products. I'm a retired GM tech, Used tons of their products for EFI-TBI induction issues. Started in the mid 80's deposits on the back side of the valves caused drive ability issues. On the intake side the cold start the fuel would get sucked into the deposits like a sponge. Car would fire stall fire stall till enough fuel would would finally get in and keep it running. The fix was a direct top end douche through the fuel rail service port. Then tell the cust. to run a few tanks with the 44K through. On TBI we would slowly pour straight into the throttle body air horn. Not sure about oil additive but GM used to sell EOS which was a ZZDP additive

My understanding is that Hyundai uses BG to inject their cleaner via the throttle body as well as a fuel system additive. Trouble it find it is hard to do. It is not sold retail. There is some on the ebay but usually packaged with a lot of other stuff.

[redrider90]

The best solution by far to clean the back of the inlet valves on Direct Injection engines is crushed walnut shell blasting. Turn the engine over until the valves are closed on the cylinder being cleaned with the inlet manifold off install the tool together with the vacuum and blasting fitting and clean the valves. Comes up like brand new. You can even do this at home with the tool if you have a compressor and a vacuum.
Throwing concoctions down the inlet is well, not the best solution esp in a turbo engine where any dislodged material goes into the turbine wheel.
The walnut shell solution works perfectly and even if you dont get all the residue out it wont harm anything upon start up, but with the valves closed and the vacuum you can get it all out anyway.   

Ciao   

I saw a complete video using harbor freight blaster using walnuts. HF sells different blasters. So what is the minimum PSI needed to do walnut shell blasting? This can be a big investment or not so big if the lower end units can do the job. I have also seen a couple of videos using CRC cleaner with decent results. I am non turbo so there is no issue about ruining a turbo. Seeing that Hyundai dealers are using a chemical equivalent to CRC why then go to a walnut blaster? Now one video I saw the guy has done over a hundred VWs as the 2.0 or 2.1 engine is very bad with severe carbon build up.

[Muzz]

I've never heard of using beer.     However using water is a standard procedure, not enough to hydrolock the motor though. You are actually steam cleaning the cylinders. That is one way we tell on outboard motors if the lower seal is shot, it lets cooling water into the bottom cylinder which will as clean as can be.
kk

If my old chemistry teacher had it right, water vapour is introduced in to the charge, and the high cylinder temps during combustion are enough to make the water react with the carbon on the valves to make producer gas, which then burns to produce CO2 + water.  This reaction is highly endothermic, which lowers the combustion chamber temps.  Over a period of time this will get rid of the carbon deposits in the engine.

I believe in WWll they fitted water injection into engines when they were slammed through the gate; the lower temps in the engine kept them going that little bit longer under extreme operating conditions.

[chuck peterson]

Aha! This explains my sailing skipper...he had a huge a$$ International in the 70's...it was the precursor to a Suburban...he had a small container of water, connected to the inlet track with an adjustable flow, sucking moisture from the jar...we hauled that beast all over the east coast...300k plus on the odometer. Room for 12x..tugged a Thistle and gear for four

[Moparnut72]

I have also read or heard the the water turning to steam produced higher pressures in the cylinders. Of course this would may also result in some cooling, I would be more interested in learing more about the chemical reaction taling place. Releasing the oxygen from the water molecuile?
kk

[Muzz]

Releasing the oxygen from the water molecuile?
kk

C + H2O ->  CO + H2

CO + H2 + O2 ->  CO2 + H2O

[redrider90]

C + H2O ->  CO + H2

CO + H2 + O2 ->  CO2 + H2O

Yesterday or Sat I found a water injection system for cleaning intake valves and did not bookmark it and cannot find it in history. 
I read on one YouTube blog that used CRC and one guy did the CRC treatment and broke so much carbon loose that it cost him $3200 to have a new cat and the parts replace after his Kia went into limp mode.

[Moparnut72]

As far as I know, no Chrysler manufactured vehicles have direct injection. I believe these problems are one reason they haven't gone to it.
kk

[Two Checks]

Quote from: Moparnut72 on February 10, 2020, 11:05:07 PM

As far as I know, no Chrysler manufactured vehicles have direct injection. I believe these problems are one reason they haven't gone to it.
kk

Been making them for two years now.

Look up 2 liter turbo GME T4 Hurricane.

[Moparnut72]

Thanks. I am not familar with that engine. I stand corrected. Is it any good, I know some of the engines that built in conjunction with Hydunai and Kia aka the World Engine wasn't so hot. I think from the Cerebus fiasco.
kk