Author Topic: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R  (Read 10122 times)

Offline moshe_levy

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Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« on: September 29, 2015, 04:43:02 PM »
Hello All-

Lately, my 2013 V7 Racer has taken to acting like a carburated bike with no choke when it's cold. The idle oscillates, and touching the throttle causes the engine to stall. Once it warms up in a few minutes, all is well - but clearly, something is wrong. For reference, it's a Sunday-only bike, with only 1,800 miles on it, purchased new August 2013. Any help appreciated - nearest dealer is well over an hour away.

-MKL
-MKL
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Offline rocker59

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2015, 04:48:36 PM »
Have you had a dealer load the latest fuel map?

Sounds like it needs it
Michael T.
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Offline moshe_levy

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2015, 04:52:08 PM »
Have you had a dealer load the latest fuel map?

Sounds like it needs it

Shortly after I purchased it, I hit 600 miles and had that service done. Nothing since then. As I said, I only use it on short Sundays (my RT is my main mileage machine.) I can ask them for that map, but if the old map was the culprit, wouldn't the bike have always run this poorly? It was always fine, until now.

-MKL
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Offline rocker59

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2015, 04:55:06 PM »
The seasons are changing.

I'm sure one of our pros will chime in soon.
Michael T.
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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2015, 04:55:06 PM »

Offline moshe_levy

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2015, 04:57:21 PM »
The seasons are changing.

I'm sure one of our pros will chime in soon.

Looking forward to it. The F/I on this bike was always spot on, so it's not the seasons, either. Something is wrong, but I've never had an F/I bike behave this way (very lean when cold) so I don't know what to make of it.

-MKL
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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2015, 05:04:18 PM »
Uneducated Guess:
Heat and pressure changes have vented gas into the canister which can't purge well enough on short runs.

Offline davedel44

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2015, 05:11:58 PM »
It caught something from those beemers. :evil:

Seriously needs a new map. 2013 Stone. Soon after purchase exhibited same exact symptons.  Larry at MPH fiddled with it,  ran fine for next 2000 miles.  Started again back to MPH for new map runs better than when new.

Like Rocker59 suggested new map probably 1/2 hour shop time.
Larry also suggested that I ride it more. 

Dave
Galveston




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Offline moshe_levy

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2015, 05:17:46 PM »
It caught something from those beemers. :evil:

Seriously needs a new map. 2013 Stone. Soon after purchase exhibited same exact symptons.  Larry at MPH fiddled with it,  ran fine for next 2000 miles.  Started again back to MPH for new map runs better than when new.

Like Rocker59 suggested new map probably 1/2 hour shop time.
Larry also suggested that I ride it more. 

Dave
Galveston

OK, I'll make an appointment and get the map done. Seems easy enough. I wish I could ride it more, believe me. 3 young kids means I get a few hours Sunday leisure, and that's it. I do commute on the RT daily and have racked up over 5,000 miles on it since taking delivery about 2 months ago - compared to the poor V7R that has 1,800 after 2+ years!

-MKL
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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2015, 05:50:06 PM »
OP, that's EXACTLY how my V7 Stone performed from day one and for the first almost 10k miles.

I recently had the updated map installed and it might be a bit better. At least the first couple of cold starts seemed better. But it is not perfect and it stalled on me the other day maybe a minute or so after starting.

I'm told there may be a cold start trim learn procedure to follow that I might try next.

But you probably have nothing to lose starting with the new map.
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Offline rocker59

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2015, 09:03:27 PM »
The new map, 352BV738, made a pretty big difference on my bike.
Michael T.
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Offline Cam3512

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2015, 06:21:40 AM »
I find the real bonus with the new map is the smoother low speed fueling. I'm so used to cold-blooded Guzzis, I always allow a warm up anyway.
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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2015, 06:43:09 AM »
I find the real bonus with the new map is the smoother low speed fueling. I'm so used to cold-blooded Guzzis, I always allow a warm up anyway.

That might be true once warm. But Sunday it was really a cold hearted bitch on me again warming up. I was surprised (and bummed). It's the only bike in the garage that can't start and pull away in the first few minutes. Hell, all of the others can start and pull away that instant.

Anyway, for my education, how long do you normally warm it?
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Offline Cam3512

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2015, 06:55:51 AM »
That might be true once warm. But Sunday it was really a cold hearted bitch on me again warming up. I was surprised (and bummed). It's the only bike in the garage that can't start and pull away in the first few minutes. Hell, all of the others can start and pull away that instant.

Anyway, for my education, how long do you normally warm it?

I start it then donn my riding gear.  Probably 2-3 minutes.  Mine stalled at the MD rally after sitting for a couple hours when I tried to take right off.  So, not a 100% cure.  I also had a difficult time starting it shortly after a gas fill up.  Rode it hard for several miles then turned it off hot when we stopped briefly. When I tried to restart it seemed to only run on one cylinder and the oil light stayed on with ZERO power. Turned it off immediately, then it took a few attempts to start before firing up.  Ran normal after that.  This has happened once or twice before, always after getting gas and turning it off hot.
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Offline sib

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2015, 07:35:40 AM »
Part of the wide differences of experience here may have to do with how we define cold.  I'm a native southern Californian, and furthermore, my ancestors roamed the desert for 40 years, so I'm not a cold lover.  My bike stays in the garage when the temperature is below 45F.  Above 45F, I haven't had any cold start issues with my '16 Stone, nor did I have any with my '13 Stone after I updated the map to 352BV738.  However, the OP seems to be saying that his bike's cold issues came on suddenly, after being fine for a couple of years, and that would indicate something's changed.
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Offline rss29

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2015, 08:11:58 AM »
I always found the warm start to be the worst for cold-bloodedness. In a true cold start situation I don't have an issue with 2 minutes of idling while putting on gloves and helmet, but it's that immediate stall after stopping for 20 min that's really annoying. It's a stall that can't be saved, either. Kind of embarrassing as you're trying to pull away from the gas station.

I guess it adds character and on the scale of potential problem severity it's pretty far down the list, but it is fairly annoying. Most fuel injected vehicles can be immediately driven from a cold start without even a stumble.

It doesn't sound like the revised factory map has completely cured the problem. I'd be interested to hear from people using third party maps if they have the same issues.

Offline sib

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2015, 08:14:50 AM »
I always found the warm start to be the worst for cold-bloodedness. In a true cold start situation I don't have an issue with 2 minutes of idling while putting on gloves and helmet, but it's that immediate stall after stopping for 20 min that's really annoying. It's a stall that can't be saved, either. Kind of embarrassing as you're trying to pull away from the gas station.

I guess it adds character and on the scale of potential problem severity it's pretty far down the list, but it is fairly annoying. Most fuel injected vehicles can be immediately driven from a cold start without even a stumble.

It doesn't sound like the revised factory map has completely cured the problem. I'd be interested to hear from people using third party maps if they have the same issues.
I've never had a stall with a warmish engine, e.g., after 10 min to an hour after stopping.  So, the mystery is, what's right about my bike that's wrong about yours?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 08:15:58 AM by sib »
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Offline rocker59

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2015, 08:21:15 AM »
Lows in the 50s here, right now.

With the new map, my bike will pull away from my house at 1500 rpm and almost no throttle, with only a moment's warmup.  No stumbling.

Previously, it would stumble and stall.  I had to rev it to 2000 rpm and do a lot of clutch slipping.  Even after a couple minutes of warm up.  And even at the stop sign a couple blocks down the street.

Now, when warm, on level surfaces it will pull away in first gear at idle speed and little or no throttle.

The low speed, off-idle fueling is much improved.
Michael T.
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Offline Loftness

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2015, 08:23:57 AM »
The new map is a solution for most of these bikes I've seen and heard about.  But Kev's bike is an example of one that's an exception, so this map may not be your solution (though I'd start with that if I were you and then go from there).
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Offline sib

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2015, 08:44:43 AM »
The new map is a solution for most of these bikes I've seen and heard about.  But Kev's bike is an example of one that's an exception, so this map may not be your solution (though I'd start with that if I were you and then go from there).
Also, use Guzzidiag to make sure your map is the one the dealer told you was installed.  Mistakes can be made, for example, the update may not have been completed and wasn't "taken" by the ECU, or the dealer's PADS wasn't completely up to date.
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Online Kev m

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2015, 09:26:02 AM »
It's weird how from day one my problem ONLY has occurred on COLD STARTS (overnight, or AT LEAST a few hours of cooling time). And then it basically goes away after it is warmed. If I waited at least 2-3 minutes and put my riding gear on AFTER starting it I'd probably not have much of a problem.

The new map (and I'll confirm with Guzzidiag soon, assuming I can get it to connect with the new cables), SEEMS to have changed the low speed nature of the motor AFTER WARMUP. But during warmup she's bucking again, seemingly as badly as before.

<shrugs> It's a first world problem for sure.
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Offline Rhodan

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2015, 09:50:50 AM »
I agree with sib that the OP seemed to indicate this was a fairly new problem.

Along with Kev and others, my bike (2013 V7 Special and should have the latest map...dealer checked when it was in earlier this year) needs to warm up to be reliable.  Otherwise it idles rough/erratically and dies very easily.  Lots of clutch work and revving and dying.

I often try to short-circuit the warm up time and regret it:  last weekend for example, it just died as I was leaning into a corner at a slower speed and was giving it a bit of throttle (thank goodness they're fairly light bikes).

Once it's warm, not a bit of trouble. 

I'll talk to the dealer about it again when it's in next time but they're good folk (Moto International).  I very much doubt they didn't get the map applied.

I guess I get to call it "character". ;)

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2015, 11:47:38 AM »
I agree with sib that the OP seemed to indicate this was a fairly new problem.

Along with Kev and others, my bike (2013 V7 Special and should have the latest map...dealer checked when it was in earlier this year) needs to warm up to be reliable.  Otherwise it idles rough/erratically and dies very easily.  Lots of clutch work and revving and dying.

I often try to short-circuit the warm up time and regret it:  last weekend for example, it just died as I was leaning into a corner at a slower speed and was giving it a bit of throttle (thank goodness they're fairly light bikes).

Once it's warm, not a bit of trouble. 

I'll talk to the dealer about it again when it's in next time but they're good folk (Moto International).  I very much doubt they didn't get the map applied.

I guess I get to call it "character". ;)


FWIW, you and I could both try that cold idle learn procedure that Pete was talking about (start it dead cold without touching the throttle and let it idle until FULLY WARMED - i.e. hella hot, longer than I would like to).
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Offline rocker59

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2015, 11:50:25 AM »
Have you got a box fan you can place in front of the bike to move some air?

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2015, 11:56:49 AM »
Have you got a box fan you can place in front of the bike to move some air?

I've got a pretty good sized one in the shop. Of course that's just going to mean it's going to sit and idle longer lol. But maybe it would at least spread the heat around a bit.
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Offline tiger_one

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2015, 12:01:32 PM »
The R motor Beemer guys use that trick when setting the throttle syncs back in the day.  Works.
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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2015, 12:16:01 PM »
Worth remembering too that the single TB smallblocks still have the rather horrid plastic mount for the ETS in the right head which means that there is a very good chance the ET reading is wrong. If it never detects it's getting fully hot it won't trim up well and this will be most noticeable at smaller throttle openings and at idle. Chances are that the difficulty in restarting occasionally in situations where there has been a briefing shut-down will be due to heat soak-back affecting the sensor input. That is the reason I can come up with for the 'Get it devilishly hot at resting TPS value' trick working. Without the cooling influence of air flow the sensor will, eventually, get to its maximum reading allowing the ECU to trim far the very high temperatures experienced from soak back while stationary. That's why I'd recommend performing the 'Idle till hot/no touch the throttle' trick with a diagnostic tool plugged in. Once the detected ET reaches the point where the sensor is at its maximum, (Or minimum, I can't remember which it is?) resistance the procedure will be complete and you can turn the bike off and let it cool down. Hopefully that will cure the hot start issues.

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Offline moshe_levy

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2015, 06:44:53 PM »
Well, I made contact with my "local" dealer (actually some 55 miles away) and I inquired if they would cover this under warranty, since I'm only a few days out of my original warranty period. They checked with Guzzi, and Guzzi said no. So, tomorrow, I'm going to call Guzzi myself and I'm hoping to get some coverage. I understand the issue of the fuel map being suspect, but I can't wrap my head around that being the true issue. Fuel maps don't just "go bad." The bike is behaving like it's not fuel injected, but rather carburated, running cold with no choke - until it warms up (3-4 minutes) and then it runs perfectly.

Previous to this, I always started, and rode right off. No warm up time, just like my BMWs. Sure, I don't hammer on her until she's warmed up a bit, but there was none of this stumbling and stalling. Again, I admit my ignorance of Guzzis, but I did have a friend with a Harley once which exhibited a similar issue. Turns out a sensor was bad, leading the ECU in that bike to fail to richen up the mixture while it was cold. Sounds EXACTLY like what is happening here.

Let's see what Guzzi says tomorrow re coverage. It's worth trying, since I'm so close to warranty period, AND I have gotten their bike in the press a time or two....

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2015, 09:38:48 PM »
Moshe, considering you don't get to enjoy the bike as much as you'd like, how's the fuel? Relatively fresh, or old and stale? FWIW, a fresh tank of gas might help if the bike has been sitting. Or not.

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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2015, 01:51:29 AM »
It'll be interesting to find out what happened.
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Re: Cold-Blooded 2013 V7R
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2015, 02:11:51 AM »
I always found the warm start to be the worst for cold-bloodedness. In a true cold start situation I don't have an issue with 2 minutes of idling while putting on gloves and helmet, but it's that immediate stall after stopping for 20 min that's really annoying. It's a stall that can't be saved, either. Kind of embarrassing as you're trying to pull away from the gas station.

I guess it adds character and on the scale of potential problem severity it's pretty far down the list, but it is fairly annoying. Most fuel injected vehicles can be immediately driven from a cold start without even a stumble.

It doesn't sound like the revised factory map has completely cured the problem. I'd be interested to hear from people using third party maps if they have the same issues.

Same about the warm startup on my V7 II, with both the original old one and rexxer maps. It seems like either like an ECU bug (e.g. misreads some signal input) or like a sensor going wild due to radiant heat from the hot engine.

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