1998 V11 EV basic question (indication)

[jetmechmarty]

The bike is new to me.  I haven't had a real ride on it yet.  I got a tag on Friday and a new battery today.  When I start the bike the red battery light is illuminated dim.  After brief warm-up with idle at about 1100 or so, I checked with the voltmeter.  I got 13.75 vdc across the battery terminals.  It's charging at idle.  Is the dim battery light normal in this condition?

[LowRyter]

typical for the alternator light to blink at low idle.  Should go away once you give it the gas.

???

ride it.  Keep it over 4k rpm.  really better at 5k   

[jetmechmarty]

Should go away once you give it the gas.

It does.  If this thing likes RPM, so do I.  I'm going to like it.

[oldbike54]

It does.  If this thing likes RPM, so do I.  I'm going to like it.

 First Guzzi , correct ? Yeah , they like RPMs , just ask Lowryter 

  Dusty

[LowRyter]

RPMs

 

[John Ulrich]

3rd gear =60 mph @ 4,000 rpms
4th gear =70 mph @ 4,000 rpms
5th gear =80 mph @ 4,000 rpms

A pattern is developing....

[Two Checks]

5th gear at 60+ is just fine. No need to keep it in the sweet spot on the highway.

[Wayne Orwig]

Idle RPM may be a touch low. Idle should be close to 1200.

[pehayes]

In that version, failure of the voltage regulator is fairly common.  Dodgy indicator light is an early symptom.  Sounds like your charging voltage is fine.  I wouldn't predict it, but don't be too surprised if the VR fails.  Get replacement from euromotoelectrics.c om.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Vagrant]

but first, get to the connectors separate them and clean them up. next run an extra ground strap to the frame or mounting screw.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The Voltage 13.75 is good, don't worry if the light is on at low revs, that's normal. As others have said the idle might be a bit low but I like it that way.

Enjoy 

[LowRyter]

5th gear at 60+ is just fine. No need to keep it in the sweet spot on the highway.

I really don't like to lug it on the highway.  60 in 5th is fine on the flat with wind to your back.  Otherwise I don't do 5th until an indicated 80 (which really 70).

[jetmechmarty]

Yes, first ride on my own Guzzi today.  I got in 60 miles before it got too cold and dark.  That thing rips up the curves at 60 mph in 2nd gear.  Why am I telling you that?  I'm still grinning.

LOW FUEL light did not extinguish when I filled it up.  There  has to be stuff to fix, right?

[oldbike54]

  Yes they will rip up a corner Marty 

  Dusty

[Kiwi_Roy]

Yes, first ride on my own Guzzi today.  I got in 60 miles before it got too cold and dark.  That thing rips up the curves at 60 mph in 2nd gear.  Why am I telling you that?  I'm still grinning.

LOW FUEL light did not extinguish when I filled it up.  There  has to be stuff to fix, right?

You may have the connectors crossed under the tank
Unplug them both
With the kill switch Off and the key on short each connector, the one that makes the light go goes to the front of the tank, the other goes to the petcock.
Be careful because if you get them swapped over with a low tank, POOF, $190 goes up in smoke.

[guzzisteve]

Yes, but did it get back up the driveway?

[jetmechmarty]

You may have the connectors crossed under the tank
Unplug them both
With the kill switch Off and the key on short each connector, the one that makes the light go goes to the front of the tank, the other goes to the petcock.
Be careful because if you get them swapped over with a low tank, POOF, $190 goes up in smoke.

I thought those were Murphy proof.  Wasn't one connector male, and the other female?  I'll have to take another look at that.

[jetmechmarty]

Yes, but did it get back up the driveway?

The driveway climb is no longer an issue. 

[pehayes]

I thought those were Murphy proof.  Wasn't one connector male, and the other female?  I'll have to take another look at that.

Just the opposite.  The two sets of connectors are identical and you would join a very long list of people who hooked them backwards and fried the fuel level sender.  The only designed "protection" is that one set of wires bears a red, plastic band which might be located a few cm away along the wire harness from the plugs themselves.  Pretty poor design for sure.  Not particularly obvious even when you know about the issue and are looking for the red bands.

One pair of wires carries a constant DC 12v to energize and operate the electro-mechanical fuel petcock.
The other pair of wires carries a variable signal ( I think maxing out at 5v) to energize the low fuel level light.
If you hook the wires backwards, you send a solid jolt of 12v into the level sensor which instantly fries its innards.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[jetmechmarty]

So, if I hooked it up backwards, it's already fried.  That's how I understand it.  Right?

[Wayne Orwig]

Yes, first ride on my own Guzzi today.  I got in 60 miles before it got too cold and dark.  That thing rips up the curves at 60 mph in 2nd gear.  Why am I telling you that?  I'm still grinning.

LOW FUEL light did not extinguish when I filled it up.  There  has to be stuff to fix, right?

As mentioned, the solenoid and low fuel connectors are identical. If you swap them, it may cost big $$$. One of them has a red band on it to identify it.
Does the solenoid make a loud CLUNK when the key is turned on? If not, the wires may be swapped.

[Howard R]

So, if I hooked it up backwards, it's already fried.  That's how I understand it.  Right?

If the fuel level was low enough to activate the light, most likely. 

That's the short version, if you want to know a bit more about how it works, read on.  I believe on the '98 the sensor is a thermistor.  The feed to it is from +12, through the bulb, and to the sensor.  (Other side of the sensor goes to ground.)  It's kept cool (high resistance) by being submerged in fuel, so that the sensor is much higher resistance than the bulb so the bulb stays dark.  Fuel level drops, thermistor heats up, resistance goes down, now the bulb is higher resistance so the bulb lights, essentially being "grounded" through the sensor and everybody is happy.  The "other" connector does not have a bulb in series.  Without the bulb to limit the current when the fuel level drops the thermistor will overheat and go pop, taking your $$ with it.

First thing I would do is get the wiring straightened out, then go for a ride and see if you notice any difference in the sound of the fuel pump.  The bulb won't pass enough current to open the fuel tap.  I think the pump *can* still "suck" hard enough for the engine to run, but it will be a lot louder while straining to do so.  Are you fluent in ohm-meter?  If so, try measuring the resistance between the pins of the sensor connector (going to the tank.)  I don't know what the "cold" resistance is supposed to be, but it should be "something" maybe 10's or even a few hundred kohms so if you can get some kind of reading chances are the sensor is still good.  If it's a pure open circuit, the thermistor has evaporated.

Good luck!

Howard

[Kiwi_Roy]

As Howard says. the thermistor is somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 Ohms, it has to be low enough to pass a little bit of current to warm it up, it rapidly gets hotter and hotter in an exponential fashion until it passes about 100 milliamps to light the lamp. If you mix the plugs with an empty tank it will glow red hot in about 10 seconds and fuse. Why doesn't it blow up the tank you may ask?
The secret is the tiny slit in the sensor case, that cools down the gas as it passes through, there is no Oxygen inside to support combustion.
If you pull the ECU relays you should hear the petcock clicking as you open close the kill switch.
Strap the petcock wires to the body with a ty-wrap so they won't snap off.

[jetmechmarty]

OK.  Thank you for the responses.  I pulled both plugs.  One of them had 11.42 volts on it, the other had 11.19 volts.  The slightly higher one was on the level sender.  I swapped it to the petcock.  Surprise.  It did change the sound of the fuel pump.  I left the sender unplugged and went for a little ride because I had an hour of sunshine left.  My meter probes wouldn't allow me to check resistance of the sender.  I'll do a better job of it over the weekend.  I assume that if it's fried, it will read dead short.  Correct?  Amber light is off with it unplugged.  I don't want to plug it back in until I'm sure it's all correct.

I can't get too crazy on the ride.  The tires are brand spanking new and still have the release agent on them.  Unfortunately, they were made in the first weeks of 2005.  I don't think I can get comfortable on the machine until they are replaced.

[Wayne Orwig]

OK.  Thank you for the responses.  I pulled both plugs.  One of them had 11.42 volts on it, the other had 11.19 volts.  The slightly higher one was on the level sender.  I swapped it to the petcock.  Surprise.  It did change the sound of the fuel pump.  I left to send unplugged and went for a little ride because I had an hour of sunshine left.  My meter probes wouldn't allow me to check resistance of the sender.  I'll do a better job of it over the weekend.  I assume that if it's fried, it will read dead short.  Correct.  Amber light is off with it unplugged.  I don't want to plug it back in until I'm sure it's all correct.

I can't get too crazy on the ride.  The tires are brand spanking new and still have the release agent on them.  Unfortunately, they were made in the first weeks of 2005.  I don't think I can get comfortable on the machine until they are replaced.

If fried, it opens up. Expect about 1,000 ohms at room temperature.
At this point I don't see any way to damage it more if you have the cables right. (red color bands on cables matched up)

[jetmechmarty]

I'll figure it out over the weekend.  If it's ruined, I have a temporary fix.

[fotoguzzi]

did you find the red tape (or band) on one of the leads and is it connected to the one with red tape? I think it should be the fuel tap that was marked with red. that is the way to know which plug is which.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The OEM sensors are very expensive $190 last time I checked, I couldn't find it on MG Cycle.
I managed to find a Panasonic thermistor for about $15, it just needs to be fixed to the old probe.
http://industrial.panasonic.com/sa/products/sensors/sensors/temperature-sensors/fuel-level-gauges
The ERTLG12N7 is the one to buy, I think its used for a low fuel light in many autos and a direct replacement for an old Triumph Tiger.
I tried getting them from Panasonic with no luck, I bought mine from a Chinese outfit DH Gate

Cut apart the old probe leaving the wires where they are sealed through the tank.

MG Cycle have a couple of interesting products, a petcock level switch combination
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30&products_id=4655
And a straight level switch both based on reed switches with a magnetic float.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30&products_id=1171
I'm not sure they will fit the EV as it doesn't have a threaded connection, the hole may be too small.
I made something similar, mine has a tiny magnet glued to a cork with the reed switch inside a brass tube, I haven't installed it though as I found the Panasonic device.

[jetmechmarty]

did you find the red tape (or band) on one of the leads and is it connected to the one with red tape? I think it should be the fuel tap that was marked with red. that is the way to know which plug is which.

The one with the red band is connected to the fuel tap.  Both connectors show twelve and a half or battery voltage.  I can feel and hear the fuel tap solenoid move when I cycle the kill switch.  The level sensor reads open circuit.  With the connectors switched, the fuel light was illuminated.  At least, I believe they were switched.  Am I supposed to be reading 12 vdc on both connectors with a digital VOM?

Harper's lists 1100 EV FUEL LEVEL SENSOR  03103000  $49.26 
https://www.harpermoto.com/1100-ev-fuel-level-sensor-03103000.html
Is this the correct part?  Buying a single Panasonic switch might prove to be a challenge.

BTW, here's the bike as it is now.

[Wayne Orwig]

The level sensor reads open circuit. 

If it is opened, it is toasted.
Assuming you used an auto ranging ohmmeter.