Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Roy gardner on April 24, 2021, 03:06:19 AM

Title: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Roy gardner on April 24, 2021, 03:06:19 AM
What is the current preference for ATF in Converts?
A few years ago, when I was on the Yahoo Convert Group, there was enthusiasm for Mil 5606 Aero Oil. I was reluctant, but eventually was persuaded, and have been using it in my LM IV powered Convert for 5 or 6 years. I see Rodekyll was using it, is this still the case?
A friend who is running 5606 in his very standard Vert, alerted me to his second round of problems. He set to change the feed hose from tank to pump and discovered a huge amount of emulsion and water living amongst his oil. He had previously had contamination & the filter was full of crap.
I promptly proceeded to dip mine with a plastic hose to get a core sample that I could read, crikey, it's its a diabolical boars nest!! Same crap, water on the bottom, emulsion above it, and dirty oil on top. It was last run 4 days ago.
I'm confident that the Aero oil is attracting water, it's got to go, whats the current thinking guys?
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Don McKinnon on April 24, 2021, 04:43:07 AM
Here are photos of the 'emulsion' etc. Normal looking fluid drained before removing filter. "Milo" drained from tank when off bike.


(https://i.ibb.co/MMc4xDS/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MMc4xDS)

(https://i.ibb.co/5RrhzjM/7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5RrhzjM)

(https://i.ibb.co/DgNBx1B/8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DgNBx1B)
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: ray bear on April 24, 2021, 04:47:41 AM
Hi Roy, now you have me concerned, I also have been running aeroshell 41  5606 for the 12 months Ive had my convert for but have not yet sampled the tank, will take a sample tomorrow. My convert gets  used weekly and so far only travelled 12000 kilometres with it   and would like to think the fluid gets enough heat to dissipate any condensation . I live in a warm dry climate in south Australia and condensation is not  really an issue. Perhaps your in a colder damp climate that may be causing you issues but will check it out tomorrow .Bill
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: ray bear on April 24, 2021, 04:53:44 AM
That's not an ingress of engine oil getting in the system via a leaking converter pump seal. Hmm hopefully some one with more knowledge on this will chime in.    just a thought.
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Roy gardner on April 24, 2021, 05:06:23 AM
Hi Roy, now you have me concerned, I also have been running aeroshell 41  5606 for the 12 months Ive had my convert for but have not yet sampled the tank, will take a sample tomorrow. My convert gets  used weekly and so far only travelled 12000 kilometres with it   and would like to think the fluid gets enough heat to dissipate any condensation . I live in a warm dry climate in south Australia and condensation is not  really an issue. Perhaps your in a colder damp climate that may be causing you issues but will check it out tomorrow .Bill

Hi Bill,
Thanks for insinuating that because we live behind the Long White Cloud, that we have a cold damp climate! I live at the top of the South Island where wine grapes are grown in the warm dry stony river beds. Sure, not quite as dry as the the desert of WA, but not quite damp enough to cultivate condensation in oil tanks, thank you. :wink:
BTW, NGC, I guess your '47 Rap has a 3 digit engine number? My Dec 48 is 1398.
Roy
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: ray bear on April 24, 2021, 05:34:11 AM
engine number 471  .it has the early long wheel base, 8 inch headlamp



(https://i.ibb.co/KyvzVMx/IMG-1145.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KyvzVMx)

get monitor size (https://whatsmyscreenresolution.com/)
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on April 24, 2021, 08:02:02 AM
I've always just used the closest equivalent to the factory specified Dexron II. Right now, that seems to be Dexron III/Mercon. I'll be changing all of the fluids soon and plan to use Redline D4 ATF this time. https://www.redlineoil.com/d4-atf
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Roy gardner on April 24, 2021, 03:22:42 PM
I've always just used the closest equivalent to the factory specified Dexron II. Right now, that seems to be Dexron III/Mercon. I'll be changing all of the fluids soon and plan to use Redline D4 ATF this time. https://www.redlineoil.com/d4-atf
Thanks Charlie. Do Guzzi specify Dexron II for the Cali II Converts? They specified Dexron for the Round Barrel models. (That is first generation Dexron with whale oil, no subsequent upgrade numbers)
(https://i.ibb.co/0sTbF87/20210425-075835.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0sTbF87)

keyboard symbols copy paste (https://usefulwebtool.com/math-keyboard)


IIRC previous discussions centered around folklore that said Dexron II & III with "friction modifiers" are too slippery for our old torque converters, hence the use of Mil 5606 which is a simple mineral oil used in hydraulics. My understanding is that the slippery friction modifiers are to enable smooth shifting of sophisticated self changing gearboxes which are full of clever valving and small oil passages. The matching TC's must be built to closer tolerances, and maybe different shaped vanes, to work with this slippery stuff??
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Roy gardner on April 24, 2021, 03:24:57 PM

That's not an ingress of engine oil getting in the system via a leaking converter pump seal. Hmm hopefully some one with more knowledge on this will chime in.    just a thought.
[/quote]
I dont believe so Bill. I would expect a darker colour, maybe black from engine oil, & no water content. Here is what I found by dipping the tank.

(https://i.ibb.co/PFT3SWC/20210424-162322.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PFT3SWC)

(https://i.ibb.co/JvGRdFj/20210424-162745.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JvGRdFj)
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Roy gardner on April 24, 2021, 03:46:32 PM
engine number 471  .it has the early long wheel base, 8 inch headlamp



(https://i.ibb.co/KyvzVMx/IMG-1145.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KyvzVMx)

get monitor size (https://whatsmyscreenresolution.com/)

Very nice! Here's my B,1398 and the die cast C,10545 which I enjoy riding. It has just turned over 10,000 miles and is having a service. You may notice that they are both twin cylinder Comets with separate gearboxes.  :grin:

(https://i.ibb.co/3M0kc9z/1279948082-20191231-194350-3391685-resized.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3M0kc9z)


(https://i.ibb.co/PCVf3XX/19-05018.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PCVf3XX)
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Bulldog9 on April 24, 2021, 05:01:04 PM
I've got a 1 gal can of that aviation fluid if anyone wants it. I won't be using it.
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on April 24, 2021, 05:02:54 PM
Thanks Charlie. Do Guzzi specify Dexron II for the Cali II Converts? They specified Dexron for the Round Barrel models. (That is first generation Dexron with whale oil, no subsequent upgrade numbers)
(https://i.ibb.co/0sTbF87/20210425-075835.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0sTbF87)

keyboard symbols copy paste (https://usefulwebtool.com/math-keyboard)


IIRC previous discussions centered around folklore that said Dexron II & III with "friction modifiers" are too slippery for our old torque converters, hence the use of Mil 5606 which is a simple mineral oil used in hydraulics. My understanding is that the slippery friction modifiers are to enable smooth shifting of sophisticated self changing gearboxes which are full of clever valving and small oil passages. The matching TC's must be built to closer tolerances, and maybe different shaped vanes, to work with this slippery stuff??

I've been running Dexron II/Mercon for the last 20k miles. Hooks up well, mpg in the low 40s, so it must not be "too slippery". Guzziology says to use Dexron.
 
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: ray bear on April 25, 2021, 02:10:23 AM
Hi Roy, dipped my tank this morning after 12000km and am happy with what my aero shell 41 looks like. Maybe you have internal hose problems. Apart from the atf pump seal allowing engine oil in from the timing cover I cant think of any other way contaminant can  ingress the system. If there was a fault at the convertor you would think there would be fluid residue around the bell housing


(https://i.ibb.co/THMhvZV/IMG-0756.jpg) (https://ibb.co/THMhvZV)
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Roy gardner on April 25, 2021, 05:10:41 AM
Hi Roy, dipped my tank this morning after 12000km and am happy with what my aero shell 41 looks like. Maybe you have internal hose problems. Apart from the atf pump seal allowing engine oil in from the timing cover I cant think of any other way contaminant can  ingress the system. If there was a fault at the convertor you would think there would be fluid residue around the bell housing


(https://i.ibb.co/THMhvZV/IMG-0756.jpg) (https://ibb.co/THMhvZV)

Well done! The syringe hose did go to the tank bottom I presume? Maybe the desert of WA is dryer than sunny Marlborough!  :grin:Keep an eye on it. At 12000kM you only have 18000kM left before your next oil change.
I have a confession; I have just toted up the miles I have done since fitting the Square Barrel engine and it comes to 25000 Miles which is 5000, or 7000 miles, over the recommended 20000 or 18000 , depending which book you read, Owner's manual, or Workshop manual. I never thought I would go that far on it but it has done some trips up & down the two islands.
Re your comment about fluid residue at the bell housing; yes, I have that. :sad: But I dont believe it's drawing moisture in there, being under pressure, only leaking a small amount of fluid out.
I suspect that Don's one has not done anywhere near this number of miles on recently changed fluid; Don?

This event will hasten the transfer of the LM IV motor back to it's original frame, the intention is to rectify the TC leak while the power plant is out, flush the system and fit new hoses & fluid. Yes, a Le Mans IV Convert, (Lemonvert) and it will have a sidecar shortly as well!

The choice of two oils which I have selected to make a decision on are;
Penrite ATF 33 Type F    https://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/atf-33-type-f-mineral
or Penrite Classic  ATF Dexron II D     https://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/classic-atf-mineral

Taking on board the message from Charlie, maybe the Classic Dexron II D  is the right answer.

Just for interest, does anybody know what Mike Tiberio uses in his LSR Eldovert?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0BVOTC38nc&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3kob3C6OJ2-dt9S2jULnsSp4bKkFPUtefAGeketC3_p6uoqu6c__PKOIQ
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Roy gardner on April 28, 2021, 03:09:48 AM
So, here is my conclusion;
I chose to contradict Guzziology recommendations this time. Doesn't happen often,I have large respect, and value Richardson's advice.
After emails & phone discussions with Penrite, we agreed that the simple system consisting of a pump & TC didnt need friction modifiers, just a good hydraulic oil suitable for exactly that. So I purchased the Penrite ATF 33, Ford spec, no friction modifiers.
I removed the tank, cooler & 3 easily accessible hoses, washed them in solvent and dried them with air & heat gun, then reassembled and added the ATF.
The return hose from cooler to tank was left with the tank end in a container. On startup,it took a few seconds,  it then burped contaminated oil into the container while I poured clean oil into the tank. The exiting oil never ran perfectly clear, but the colour changed from cack brown to aerated pink fairly quickly so I stopped & reconnected the hose to the tank then finished the topping up procedure.


(https://i.ibb.co/4SLcmdg/20210427-164402.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4SLcmdg)


First thing this morning, after sitting overnight, I dipped the tank with my 3/16" bore hose. Clean oil to the bottom!

(https://i.ibb.co/vk2PM1L/20210428-075557.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vk2PM1L)


That was followed by a test ride, 30 miles, open road, short burst to 110 on the speedo, close to 100 real (MPH that is), in high, and around town in low.
 Thoughts? It felt more responsive straight out of the driveway, crisper response to the throttle right across the range and clearly transmitting good power to get to the ton quickly without any hesitation.

I would expect any fresh, clean oil would perform better that the dirty water emulsion that was living in there.
It has been a lesson to me in keeping better track of my maintenance. (I religiously do the other oil & filter changes on time) I have made a note on my maintenance blackboard of the next TC oil change along with the others.

Thank you to those who responded and offered thoughts and advice.

Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Loop Tonti EV on April 28, 2021, 05:30:23 PM
Glad you got it sorted. I have a 76 convert that I'll be putting back on the road after 10 years. I'll try your method above. I also thought of trying regular power steering fluid. Years ago they recommended atf dexron or dexron II in power steering units. I can't seem to find the specs on ps fluid but I thought of trying it just to see how it would work.
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Roy gardner on April 29, 2021, 03:35:20 AM
Glad you got it sorted. I have a 76 convert that I'll be putting back on the road after 10 years. I'll try your method above. I also thought of trying regular power steering fluid. Years ago they recommended atf dexron or dexron II in power steering units. I can't seem to find the specs on ps fluid but I thought of trying it just to see how it would work.
Yea, you might get lucky. There are some older type power steering fluids which seem interchangeable. Most of them seem to have extra "slippery stuff" in them.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Muzz on April 29, 2021, 05:29:56 AM
Very nice! Here's my B,1398 and the die cast C,10545 which I enjoy riding. It has just turned over 10,000 miles and is having a service. You may notice that they are both twin cylinder Comets with separate gearboxes.  :grin:


(https://i.ibb.co/PCVf3XX/19-05018.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PCVf3XX)


Is that a Seeley frame there Roy?

Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Roy gardner on April 29, 2021, 01:44:58 PM
Is that a Seeley frame there Roy?


No Muzz, it a replica Egli that I built. One day, when you least expect it, I'll bring it to a Guzzi Rally and show you. I think it's eligible, it has all sorts of Guzzi bits, Sport/Eldo front brake lever, V50 Carbs, tank rubbers, fork stem bits etc.  :wink:
Title: Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
Post by: Muzz on April 30, 2021, 08:03:01 PM
No Muzz, it a replica Egli that I built. One day, when you least expect it, I'll bring it to a Guzzi Rally and show you. I think it's eligible, it has all sorts of Guzzi bits, Sport/Eldo front brake lever, V50 Carbs, tank rubbers, fork stem bits etc.  :wink:

Hang, in Motueka the guy with the Harley (wife had a V7) suffered only a bit of good natured ribbing.  I am sure that beast would be greeted with open arms. :thumb: