Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bill Havins on December 06, 2014, 11:25:15 PM

Title: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies - The Conclusion
Post by: Bill Havins on December 06, 2014, 11:25:15 PM
 I'm a bit "fastidious" about some things.  And other things?  Meh!  I could care less about water spots.  But I want my Guzzi to run well.  I don't want a high performance bike.  I just want it to run well.

This '98 EV I have been, er, "restoring," is my first fuel-injected bike.  I am very comfortable with carbs and distributors, but it has taken me a while to really wrap my head around this fuel injection thing.

I have been puzzled for many months that I can't get this engine to perform consistently at idle and just above.  One day I think I have it.  The next day...heavy sigh.  Then on our trip to New Mexico a few weeks ago I thought the TPS was acting up.  Then the symptom cleared a couple of days later, only to return as we neared home on the last day of the trip.  When I pulled the TPS off in the garage there was fuel in it.

I have begun to consider that some of the performance issues with my Guzzi are the seals on the throttle bodies, combined with "tired" injectors.  I bought a set of throttle bodies from Pinwall Cycles and am using them as my "guinea pigs."  I posted last week that the seals in these throttle bodies were obviously bad (the donor bike had 19K on it).  The "rubber" seals used in these throttle bodies just don't hold up to "oxygenated" fuels.  So I ordered replacement seals at a cost of $11+ each.  The ones I ordered are made with Viton "wipers."  I should have the seals early next week.  I'll post photos of their installation.

Regarding injectors, I decided to send the "donor" injectors to a Houston-based injector reconditioning shop.  Before I mailed them I checked their electrics to ensure they were still patent (they measured 17.2 ohms resistance).  Today I received the reconditioned injectors in the mail.  The shop that did the work included the report you see below.  Before their cleaning, I wonder if these injectors would have caused symptoms similar to what has been frustrating me.

(http://havinsdesigns.com/images/tps_seals/injectors_report2.jpg)

I won't "firm up" my opinion until I install the reconditioned injectors and rebuild the throttle bodies on my Guzzi.  But I am beginning to lean toward an opinion that we need to pay more attention to throttle body seals and the condition of injectors as our Guzzis age.  Heck, if my EV had carbs on it I would have rebuilt them at least four times by now (assuming I bought the bike in 1998).  And I would change the points at least every two years, adjusting them each time I set the valves.

When I swap the reconditioned injectors with the injectors on my EV I will send my originals in for reconditioning.  It will be interesting to see how that report reads.

Make sense?

Bill
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Hagan on December 07, 2014, 07:06:58 AM
I'm a bit "fastidious" about some things.  And other things?  Meh!  I could care less about water spots.  But I want my Guzzi to run well.  I don't want a high performance bike.  I just want it to run well.

****

When I swap the reconditioned injectors with the injectors on my EV I will send my originals in for reconditioning.  It will be interesting to see how that report reads.

Make sense?

Bill


Well, as for "make sense," dunno.  I am likely to be way more successful with water spots than with throttle bodies and injectors  ::), but I am interested in the results.

Have the EV on the lift awaiting various tasks, and will consider adding that to the list.  That said, am reluctant to mess with "success," as when I rode it last week, it was flawless ... or mebbe I am just getting used to flaws!

Seriously, it idles at 11, and doesn't stumble whatever on out to 7+.  Did not get to rev limiter, but nary a complaint.  Yes, it has some flat spots along the way, but nothing new, I think.

Still, that R&R sounds as if it's in my limited skill set and would be useful PM, so I'm game, especially as it also sounds inexpensive.   ;)

Thanks for the report; please do update on completion ... or snags.

Bill

Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Wayne Orwig on December 07, 2014, 08:49:23 AM
Still, that R&R sounds as if it's in my limited skill set and would be useful PM, so I'm game, especially as it also sounds inexpensive.   ;)


Yes Bill, you need to fix it until it is broken.  ;-T



 :D
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Dean Rose on December 07, 2014, 08:59:48 AM

Yes Bill, you need to fix it until it is broken.  ;-T

 :D



 ;-T


Dean
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: M0T0Geezer on December 07, 2014, 10:07:48 AM
Rough idle and occasional stumbling can be caused by "non-compliant" (i.e., dirty) injectors that fail to accurately follow instructions from the ECU.

The ECU says "Open to X" but the injector does something a little different, "Opening to X minus delta" because it is dirty.

The tiny valve body ("pintle") can become stiff from contaminant deposits. Each injector also has a tiny fuel filter which can become partially clogged with impurities.

I find a dose of Techron fuel injector cleaner always makes my 2004 Breva 750 (30,000 miles) run smoother.

I suggest everyone try that before spending time and $$ on new or rebuilt injectors.
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: LowRyter on December 07, 2014, 01:27:17 PM
just for grins, have you played the fuel enriching knob on the ecu.  Could be that it's set for the wrong altitude?  Although, the gas issue sounds pretyy serious. 

And that reminds me, I thought I might play with the knob to perhaps mitigate my suspected TPS issue.   
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 07, 2014, 01:57:32 PM

...have you played the fuel enriching knob on the ecu...
  

Oh, yeah.  I even put my oscilloscope on the fuel injector leads to watch how the pulse changed as I turned the potentiometer.

I think MOTOGeezer has a point, running a little fuel injector cleaner through the tank from time-to-time might help.  But that assumes your fuel injectors were good to start with and have only "cleanable" issues going on with them.  I'm not sure what condition mine are in.

I have arrived at a point in my "piddling" where I am convinced I had to try to get back to a baseline of some sort.  So, in the next few weeks I'm going to have restored fuel system components and then go from there.
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Vasco DG on December 07, 2014, 03:06:57 PM
Note that Guzzi are now recommending that TB's be removed and cleaned every 10,000km!

While this is complete overkill the fact remains that especially if owners are analabout keeping their oil at the 'Full' mark on the stick a fair bit gets blown out and ends up fouling the TB's. This is true for all models although some are worse than others, most likely because of the way they are ridden. Bellagios which beg to be flogged mercilessly are particularly bad for it! ;D

When I removed mine for a thorough cleaning about 15,000Km ago they were pretty grubby. Since it isn't really a hard job to pull them on a Griso I'll probably do them every 25,000 or so or if I think they need it.

Pete
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: fotoguzzi on December 07, 2014, 03:13:25 PM
just for grins, have you played the fuel enriching knob on the ecu.  Could be that it's set for the wrong altitude?  Although, the gas issue sounds pretyy serious. 

And that reminds me, I thought I might play with the knob to perhaps mitigate my suspected TPS issue.   
Very good point! don't turn it more than about a 1/4 turn at a time then ride 10 minutes to know if it made a difference.
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: 1Sourdough on December 07, 2014, 09:51:43 PM
Just before I stopped riding for the cold weather a couple of weeks ago I noticed a gas smell and found the '99 EV's TB bottoms damp with gas.    Your comments came at a good time.  It had recently begun expressing displeasure with cool temps, also.  If run hard enough to get the engine very well warmed up, all was sweetness & light until we got back into town.  Then it would turn surly again.  I had just replaced the fuel filter, and was thinking something I had done there was causing the poor running.  Looking forward to the next installment!
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: bigbikerrick on December 08, 2014, 03:28:25 PM
excellent, Bill!  I will also be checking back here in regards to the TB "seals". I bet my 03 Aluminum with 25K miles on it needs them looked at . as far as adjusting for altitude with a screw on the ecu....does my 03( built in 02) with the ECU behind the left side cover, have that adjustment screw? Ive never heard of it before. Or is it only on the earlier ECUs that reside under the seat....
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                 :pop
Rick.
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: rodekyll on December 08, 2014, 03:52:35 PM
Your '03 does not have the trim knob. 
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill N on December 08, 2014, 04:44:28 PM
Timely post for me. My 98 EV stumbles at idle so I have to pulse it like a Harley when stopped. Also when I clutch in, with throttle rolled off while coming to a stop, it sometimes dies and does a burp (backfire). I've been thinking of injector additives and will try that first. Will monitor this thread to see other's results.
Bill  :pop
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 08, 2014, 05:12:42 PM

My Viton seals arrived via UPS this morning.  My EV is sitting in the garage, up on blocks.  Yesterday I pulled the front end off to grease the steering head bearings, clean-lube-and-Doxit the ignition switch, and surface-and-Doxit the starter switch contacts.  It looks like a turkey carcass at 11:30pm on Christmas Day - eviscerated!

I now have the throttle bodies off and have begun to clean them.  I'll get the injectors off to Houston tomorrow and then I'll see if anything was happening with them.  I also hope to get the Viton seals in the throttle bodies, if they'll fit (oh please, oh please, oh please...I promise I'll be good until the end of the year...).

More later.

Bill
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: balvenie on December 08, 2014, 07:39:50 PM
ONYA Bill ;D ;-T
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 08, 2014, 08:22:30 PM

Seals don't fit...  :P  Oversized by at  least .25mm.  I guess now I don't have to be good till the end of the year.  ;D

Back to the internet... 

Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: balvenie on December 08, 2014, 09:01:57 PM
           Better luck next time and thanks too; your "research?" is very interesting to me.
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Wayne Orwig on December 08, 2014, 10:54:30 PM
Timely post for me. My 98 EV stumbles at idle so I have to pulse it like a Harley when stopped. Also when I clutch in, with throttle rolled off while coming to a stop, it sometimes dies and does a burp (backfire). I've been thinking of injector additives and will try that first. Will monitor this thread to see other's results.
Bill  :pop
Have the throttle bodies been synced and the TPS set lately?

Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 09, 2014, 10:12:23 AM
I just got off the telephone with a fellow at a company that makes seals.  I described the seals on the Magneti-Marelli Weber throttle bodies, and noted they do not have any metal in them; they are a simple U-cup "rod seal."  He was quick to say that "rod seals" are designed to seal rods that move in and out, not rods that rotate.  He said the seals I described are certain to fail because, as the rod turns, it causes the seal to want to rotate with it.  This eventually causes the seal to wear on its outside diameter and it then stops sealing.  He indicated we need "oil-type seals" that are press-fit into the bore around the pivot shaft.  That will keep the seals from rotating and, if made from the correct compound (e.g., Viton or similar) will allow them to seal much longer, if not indefinitely.

Heavy sigh...  :-\

I wonder if the more important issue is, without a metal ring embedded in the outside diameter, the present seals are able to pull away from the diameter of the bore as they soften/shrink (or whatever they do) with exposure to oxygenated fuel.

Dawg!  I dunno'.
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 09, 2014, 03:22:51 PM

The more I dig into this the deeper the hole gets...  Brilliant!

Early this afternoon I removed the butterfly from one of my donor throttle bodies.  This required grinding away the "peened" ends of the screws so they could be removed from the throttle shaft.  With the butterfly removed the shaft could be pulled from the throttle body.  I was then able to accurately measure the bores where the seals fit into the throttle body.

The bores for the seals are 11.5mm in diameter.  Dawg!  Nobody has an 11.5mm  O.D. seal that I have seen.

This vendor shows seals they had custom made for Ducati throttle bodies: http://ca-cycleworks.com/t-seal (http://ca-cycleworks.com/t-seal) .  I sent them an email last night asking for the specifications on the seals.  I called them a few minutes ago and was told "the tech guy has been in and out all day."  The woman on the phone said they would send me an email when he gets back.

I am considering calling the seal manufacturer back and asking them to do a short production run of seals to my specification.  The minimum order for such is $300, and the end result is "15 to 20" seals.  Despite the cost I may do it.

I sent my original injectors in to InjectorRX just after noon.  In a week I should have them back with a report of their status before and after cleaning.  Data are good when troubleshooting.

More later.
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill N on December 09, 2014, 03:25:09 PM
Have the throttle bodies been synced and the TPS set lately?


TPS yes, Throttle bodies no. Wish I knew someone who could do that for me.
Thanks, Bill
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 09, 2014, 05:47:45 PM

I got an email back from "Chris," the "tech guy" at California Cycleworks in San Diego.  Here are the measurements he gave for their Viton seals: "Our seals are 7.77 x 11.56 x 2.54."

As above, the bores the seals fit in measure 11.5mm exactly.  The butterfly shafts measure 7.95mm.  The quoted height of 2.54mm should be fine.  So it would appear that California Cycleworks is a source for appropriate seals.  I have four on the way and will install them as soon as they arrive (via Priority Mail).

Things are looking better.

Bill




Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Rumba on December 09, 2014, 06:31:32 PM
Chris Kelley runs California Cycle works for +10 years.
A shop with a very good reputation.

Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: mwrenn on December 10, 2014, 10:21:34 PM
Fascinating post. It will be very interesting to hear about the end result of your work!
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: LowRyter on December 11, 2014, 02:19:29 PM
I hope "all this wrong seal on Weber stuff" (my quotes), doesn't mean we are ALL doomed!
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 11, 2014, 02:54:24 PM

The Buna (or whatever rubber) seals on my throttle bodies were very easy to remove by probing on the outside diameter with an eyeglasses screwdriver.  They lifted up and out easily, both on my original EV throttle bodies and the "donor" throttle bodies.  I'll let a seals expert decide if the seals are "right," "wrong," or "fair-to-middling."  I dunno'.  In my case I don't think they were doing much, witness the fuel in my TPS.

Let's see if the California Cycleworks seals do the job.  I sure hope so.

Bill



Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 15, 2014, 03:22:31 PM
My original injectors just returned from Houston.  There wasn't anything "startling" in the report, very similar to what I posted, above.  Here's a quick summary:

Both injectors were in good shape electrically.  Both showed a "fair" spray pattern; neither demonstrated leaks.

The left injector (the one that sits on top of the TPS) showed a static flow of 282 cc/min. before cleaning - 288 after cleaning.  The right injector had a static flow of 284 before cleaning and 288 after.  Both demonstrated Good spray patterns after cleaning.

Cleaning produced a 2.13% change in the flow of the left injector and a 1.41% change in the right injector.

On another issue, I received the seals I ordered from California Cycleworks.  They look very similar to the seals that were in the throttle bodies; they are simple u-cups, just like the originals, but made of Viton.  They fit very snugly and will likely provide a good seal for some time.

I decided to replace the seal in the bottom of the right throttle body.  This required some delicate surgery to remove the "press fit" aluminum plug from the bottom bore.  The bottom of the throttle body shaft is very, very close to the inside surface of the plug.  I will machine a new plug and press fit it in the bottom of the bore.

It will be several days before I reassemble the intake side of the engine to test everything I have done.  I am in the midst of periodic maintenance on my EV so it looks like it ran over a land mine (parts are strewn all over the garage).  I will post results when I have my scooter running again.

Cheers!

Bill
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: rodekyll on December 15, 2014, 03:39:55 PM
Good data on he injector cleaning.   ;-T
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 15, 2014, 04:28:39 PM

Thanks, RK.  I don't think we give injectors (and seals) much thought as we try to tune our Guzzis.  What I've posted above is akin to having different sized sets of jets in the left and right carburetors.  That doesn't work very well.

And as far as the seals go.  I wonder (don't know for sure, yet) if that's like having cracks in the intake manifold boots.  That doesn't work too well either.

Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: wildduck on December 15, 2014, 05:54:37 PM
Bill;

Good work so far, and good thinking about the seals. It seems like a critical point to introduce air right there, or more accurately NOT to introduce air there. What's the point of all the computer power, accurate injectors and the sensors to make it work if you have a big hole there, or even a little one. Maybe I'm missing something but I think you are on the right path,

Do the injector guys charge as if we have limited-production exotic  Eye-talian machinery?

Best,

John



Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 15, 2014, 06:19:53 PM

Hi, John.

This particular injector shop charges $18 per injector.  In that price they do their testing, cleaning, re-cleaning if the first run wasn't enough, and then their after testing.  They also replace the o-rings (there are 2 per injector).

I ordered a couple of small tubes of "O-Ring Grease" at $1 per.  Then there was state tax since I'm also in Texas ($3.19) and $6 for priority mail.  Total bill $47.19.  In my book that was "Okie-Dokie Fine."  Figure what a couple of carburetor kits would cost, or a pair of new injectors.  To me it was a no-brainer.

Bill
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 18, 2014, 11:21:15 AM
I am setting up my Smithy to cut the plug to go in the bottom of my right side throttle body.  Remember, there is an aluminum plug that has to be removed to get to the bottom throttle body shaft seal and replacements plugs are not available.

Would anyone else like me to machine a plug for them?  Since I will be set up to do the lathe work I might as well cut several if other Wild Guzzi members think they will eventually change the seals on their throttle bodies.

Send me a PM even if you post a response here - I can keep track of the PMs in Outlook on my computer.

Bill

Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 19, 2014, 01:31:15 PM
Here is a photo of the plug I machined yesterday.  The nickel in the image offers a comparison to the plug's actual size.  The plug fits in the bore of the right hand throttle body (the hole in the middle of the photo.

(http://havinsdesigns.com/images/tps_seals/throttle_body_plug.JPG)

When I cleaned this throttle body the carburetor cleaner I used caused the old seal to swell.  This put drag on the pivot shaft.  After a couple of days the drag was still there so I decided to replace the seal.  That made it necessary to machine the plug.

I am going back together with everything this afternoon (unless it is too cold to "think" in the garage).  It will be a few more days before I start the engine to see how well all of this works.

Bill
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: balvenie on December 19, 2014, 04:39:14 PM
             Hope it turns out to be a good, early Christmas present for you Bill ;-T
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 24, 2014, 07:57:35 AM
I have received several PMs about the seal and aluminum plug in the bottom of the right throttle body.  "When and why do you replace that seal?"  Here are my thoughts.  Remember, no one appears to have ever paid any attention to this issue with Guzzis, so I may be a crazy man off in the woods attempting to change the growth habits of centuries-old trees.  And I may be known to the forest animals as "Nuts!"  So take this with a grain of salt.

I said early in the above that it may not be necessary to replace the seal in the bottom of the right hand throttle body because the aluminum plug that covers it makes the seal "redundant."  I still believe that is true.  But, and it's a big but, I used carburetor cleaner on my throttle bodies and this appears to have made that seal swell and "bind" on the pivot shaft.  When the binding was still present after two days I decided it was time to pull the plug (literally) and replace the seal.  I didn't want to leave that seal exposed to the elements so I made a replacement plug to cover it - the plug is a simple "press fit" in a vise.

Regarding this whole seals and throttle bodies thing, I have been asked, "Why do it?"  When I bought this scooter several years ago it had had "stuff" added to it (specifically, Bub mufflers and a Power Commander).  And I'm not sure it has a "stock" microcontroller in the ECU (the label is torn off).  So I set myself to taking the bike back to "baseline" so I might get it to run closer to "stock" (if such is possible).  When I had all of the "stuff" removed/replaced the bike still did not run consistently at low revs from one day to the next.  So I began to question what might be involved.  Using my experience with carburetors as an analogue, I finally arrived at the thought that the problem might be seals on the throttle body pivot shafts.  That's where I am now.

1Sourdough indicated he is waiting for me to finish this process to see if replacing the seals really helps.  He's not the only one!  So, for the next few days I will turn my attention to putting all of this back together.  And as soon as I'm done I'll report the results.  http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=73861.0 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=73861.0)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 26, 2014, 05:20:02 PM


Today my goal was to get the EV back together to the point where I could start it and ensure it would run given the fact that I had just rebuilt the throttle bodies.  The short version is, "Yes, it runs very nicely, thank you."

I have contaminated these data something fierce.  I did replace the seals in the throttle bodies.  And I did have the injectors cleaned and flow-tested.  But, I have done so many other things that have the potential to affect performance that the only conclusion I can draw from all of this will develop when I remove the TPS after a ride of a hundred miles or so.  If there is no fuel in the TPS then I can conclude that replacing the seal on the bottom of the left hand throttle body "stopped the blow-by," or drip or leak or whatever it has been.

While I have had my EV apart I cleaned and lubed the ignition switch.  I also cleaned and "doxit-ed" the starter switch and the kill switch.  I replaced the sheathing on the wiring harnesses that exit out from the front of the tank and go to all of the controls on the steering head (so all of the connectors were taken apart and treated with doxit).  I rebuilt the mounts for the ignition coils (one had been rubbing on the frame) and applied a little paint.  I replaced both spark plug wires (Dawg knows how old the others were).  I greased the steering head bearings (won't affect engine performance) and replaced the clutch cable (well...).

When I tried to start the bike a few minutes ago it...did...not...wa nt...to...run...  And then I remembered the bypass screw on the bottom of each throttle body...  This time it was ready to run, so I let it warm just a bit, tuned the idle "by ear," synched the throttle bodies "by ear,"  and revved the engine.  Our neighbors across the street have two pit bulls - the garage door points right at them...  ;D

Our Albuquerque daughter is due in here in a few minutes.  Tomorrow I'll attach the vacuum gauges and AFR meter and do a careful tuning.  Then when I have a chance I'll take the bike for a quick hundred mile ride.  I'm hopeful.

Bill
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: creaky99 on December 26, 2014, 08:51:57 PM
I will be giving my '98 EV a good going over soon and I've been following this thread with great interest, good job Bill.  Bottom plug on the TB............I have several small plugs of various sizes and would like to know what the correct diameter is.
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 26, 2014, 09:27:43 PM
The bore measures right at 15.20mm.  I made my plug with a 15.18mm diameter (Dawg knows what the actual diameter was - it's to the point of splitting hairs).  It seemed to be an "easy" press fit; sure won't move now.

The diameter of the plug can only go in about 2.5mm.  Any further and it hits the throttle body shaft.

Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 27, 2014, 08:30:19 AM

It's raining; the prediction is for snow and sleet with a high near 39.  I'm putting off the big test ride until tomorrow.  Frtzlfraken!

Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: creaky99 on December 27, 2014, 11:10:43 AM
Thanks for the info Bill. 
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 28, 2014, 06:05:51 PM
An update:

I have my EV back together and running well.  I have not been out on the road with it, though, so I can't say if this repair has really been worth the effort.  Seems like it has.  The engine starts easily from cold, idles well, revs well, and seems fine with all of the testing one can get done with the bike sitting on its center stand.  As soon as I can break free and the weather cooperates I'll do the road test.

Now, would I recommend that others perform this same maintenance task?  If you are confident in your mechanical skills, and if you have the necessary test equipment to set the TPS, set idle/synch the throttle bodies, and set the higher speed synch of the throttle bodies and CO level of the exhaust then, yes.  I'd recommend doing it.

But, if you are not confident in your mechanical and tuning skills, either get an "expert type" to help you, or pay a skilled Guzzi wrench to do it.  This task is a fiddly pain in the keester!  The throttle bodies have to be removed and disassembled (but the butterflies do not have to be removed from the throttle body shafts).  When you go back together you have to rebuild the throttle bodies assembly, reattach the throttle cable and "warm up lever" cable, and then adjust, adjust, adjust.  It is a task that takes patience and the luxury of being able to walk away when you get tired of working on the bike.  I believe it can be done in a weekend, but I would allow more time than that.  And, if you have even the least bit of arthritis in your hands/fingers, get a fresh bottle of ibuprofen before you start.  You end up working in tight spaces, trying to get fuel injection hose securely attached and many other tasks that want to rub the flesh from your fingers.  Lovely!

When I can find the time I'll attach my data logging stuff and go do a 100 mile run.  I don't need the data, I just want to see it.  Then I'll pull the TPS and look to see if fuel has found its way inside.  If the bike runs well and there's no fuel in the TPS I'll call this a worthwhile effort.
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: wildduck on December 28, 2014, 06:21:49 PM
This was a great series of posts and has got me thinking along the same lines. Thanks for documenting the many steps along the way,

thank you,

John
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
Post by: Bill Havins on December 30, 2014, 11:37:06 AM
One more quick update and I'll drop this for several days - freezing temps and frozen precipitation are setting in here.  Dawg!

Late yesterday afternoon I had enough time to do a twenty mile run, about half at highway speeds.  With the TPS set at 375 milliVolts and idle set at 1100 RPM I did have the old popping and backfiring stuff; it was especially noticeable when rapidly decelerating from >5500 RPM.  Otherwise the engine ran very well once warmed up (but the ambient air temp was just 56).  I pulled the plugs when I got home and they looked "normal" for a '98 EV (white on one side of the ceramic insulator and brown on the other).

We are due for about four days of yucky weather.  I'll reset the TPS to about 420 milliVolts at idle and reset the idle to 1100 RPM at that TPS setting.  I'll then attach my data logging stuff and, when roads are passable, I'll get in a 100 mile run.  I'll check gas mileage at the end of the run.

Winter.  Ugh...

EDIT:  Setting the TPS to 420 milliVolts was an absolute waste of time.  Back to 375mV.
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies - The Conclusion
Post by: Bill Havins on January 11, 2015, 03:53:15 PM
We finally had a bit of a break in the weather today so I wanted to get out on the highway with my EV and determine if the work described in this thread was worth it.  My conclusion is it was just the thing for me to do.

To review, I bought this '98 EV several years ago.  It was fitted with Bub mufflers, a crossover of an unknown brand, and a Power Commander III USB.  It was said to have been dyno-tuned to MAP the PCIII; I have a copy of that report.  I don't know if the microcontroller in the ECU is stock - the label is torn off.

The Bub mufflers were not installed well; they leaked where they met the crossover, in part, because the crossover was too short.  Shimming the joints and attempting to seal the joints with high-temp gasket sealer did not fix the problems.

Fuel was leaking into the throttle position sensor on the bottom of the left throttle body.

I did not care for the way the bike ran - I had a sense it could run more reliably from one day to the next.  That included variations when idling, and "dead spots" that came and went when revving the engine.  I attributed these "dead spots" to wear on the throttle position sensor.  When they appeared at cruising RPMs (around 3800 RPM) they were really annoying.

The purpose of this thread was to document attempting to get the bike back to a "baseline" of sorts.  So, I went through the ignition switch and kill switch and cleaned, lubed, and "doxit-ed" as appropriate.  I replaced the spark plug wires and plug caps.  I installed a new stainless steel crossover and stainless steel mufflers made by Keihan Systems in the U.K.  While installing these components I installed new exhaust gaskets on the heads, and ensured that each slip-joint was carefully clamped after sealing them with high-temp gasket sealer (Permatex Ultra Copper).

I sent my injectors off for testing and cleaning.  I installed new Viton gaskets on the top and bottom of both throttle body butterfly shafts after carefully cleaning the throttle bodies.  I set the TPS to 375 milliVolts (per Guzziology).  I performed other maintenance tasks as I waited for a break in the winter weather we have been having (lubed the steering head bearings, adjusted the positions of the coils in the frame so the right one didn't rub the frame, replaced the Y-shaped high pressure oil delivery tube on top of the block, replaced other sealing washers to stem oil weeping, and on the list goes).

It has been sunny here today and the temperature made it up to 50.  So I put on all of my riding gear layers and headed out for a mix of spirited riding, including both stop-and-go in-town riding, and highway travel at speeds in excess of..., well, let's say in excess.  What an absolutely wonderful ride!  Once the engine warmed up it ran perfectly!  If I didn't have obligations in just a few minutes I would have stayed gone all afternoon.

Coming back into town the idle seemed to be a bit fast, but I'm not going to worry about it for now - I'll wait until the weather warms and I have an entire Saturday to get the engine up to temperature and then pull it into the garage to do that fine-tuning.

When I got home I let the engine cool a bit and then pulled the right spark plug.  Almost perfect.  I need to install a new set of plugs and repeat the "read" - the plugs that are in the bike are old so any conclusions I might draw are potentially contaminated by "old news."

I then pulled the throttle position sensor to see if gas had dripped into it from the throttle body.  It was bone dry!  Yippee!

So, here is my conclusion: if you buy an older fuel-injected Guzzi and it is a bit tough to tune "just right," consider having the injectors tested and cleaned, and consider cleaning the throttle bodies and replacing the old rubber seals with Viton seals.  Then consider if there is a need to clean and "doxit" the TPS and those switches/connectors that supply power to the ignition.  And decide if you need to attend to the spark plug wires/caps and the exhaust system.  In the case of my '98 EV this all seems to have been worth the effort.

Now I get to do all of the driveline periodic maintenance.  Then we're off to Big Bend and the Gila Wilderness in the spring and early summer.

Cheers!

Bill
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies - The Conclusion
Post by: RinkRat II on January 11, 2015, 04:24:36 PM
 :bike Thanks for all the great info ;-T There's nothing like real world validation for all your efforts and the old injector cleaning and testing seems to be in my future ~;

     Paul B. :BEER:
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies - The Conclusion
Post by: balvenie on January 11, 2015, 04:28:36 PM
              Thanks Bill. This has been an enthralling topic ;-T
Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies - The Conclusion
Post by: AMGeneral on January 11, 2015, 04:40:29 PM
This is the sort of thread that needs to be pinned to the top forever!

 Great info and addresses to those with the parts and services needed. ;-T

Now how does the engine behave when going through town. Example when you are just trolling along not really accelerating or coasting. Your in that limbo area in between, that is where my Jackal really throws a fit. Now wondering if this fix will cure that. Guess it is worth a shot.

Nice work, keep us posted!

Rod

Title: Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies - The Conclusion
Post by: Bill Havins on January 11, 2015, 05:02:33 PM

...how does the engine behave when going through town. Example when you are just trolling along not really accelerating or coasting. Your in that limbo area in between, that is where my Jackal really throws a fit. Now wondering if this fix will cure that. Guess it is worth a shot....


Rod,

I purposefully got into some traffic that required tooling along at a constant speed (appx. 3000 RPM) both on the highway (5th gear) and in town (2nd or 3rd).  Wherever I set the throttle the engine speed stayed generally constant.  There was no bucking or surging or whatever you want to call it.  The throttle and engine seemed to be "hard-wired" (or maybe it was pure "placebo effect"  ;) ).

Now, this was not an exhaustive sample.  So I don't have any idea how this performance will continue "days on end."  But this first sample shows promise.

Bill