Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Pasta Hog on February 18, 2015, 11:34:28 AM

Title: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Pasta Hog on February 18, 2015, 11:34:28 AM
Folks may recall that I ran over a screw on my Harley and got a rear flat. The replacement tube blew out, as did the second replacement.

The shop finally looked at the bike. They said the tire is ruined, because I rode a long way after the tire started going down. I thought I was just feeling road bumps; I could not believe I was getting a third flat in a week. I assume they will expect me to buy a new tire.

They are still trying to figure out why two tubes died. The mechanic told me there was rust inside the rim. I'm going to go down and look at it. The problem with this explanation is that the first tube lasted a thousand miles, until I hit a screw. The rust didn't bother it.

Now I need to know whether rust inside a rim will ruin a tube, and I also need to know if there is a solution. I plan to post photos as soon as I get a chance to see the rim. There is no rust on the outside of the wheel.

It looks like Harley rims are extremely overpriced (surprise, surprise), so I would prefer not to replace the wheel.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: LowRyter on February 18, 2015, 11:41:48 AM
I can't tell you about the inner tube.  I do know some Harley owners have had some problems with rusted chrome.  Even some lawsuits over a fellow's $40k CVO bike.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Pasta Hog on February 18, 2015, 11:53:05 AM
I have read that you can remove the rust and then apply Extend Rust Neutralizer to discourage further problems.

I am wondering if the shop used water to put the tires on. I don't ride in wet weather.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: oldbike54 on February 18, 2015, 12:19:16 PM
 Tube type rims will condense moisture due to the heating/cooling cycles they are subjected to . In a humid climate like Florida this problem will be more pronounced . And yes , rust can cause a tube to fail , although W/O seeing your rim making a diagnoses is impossible . Take off HD rims are not too expensive .


  Dusty
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: lrutt on February 18, 2015, 12:19:23 PM
If it's a spoked rim, rust inside is not uncommon at all, even on newer bikes. Water finds it's way in through the spoke nipples. Rims are not chromed or protected all that great on the inside.

If I see any hint at all of rust scale, I wire brush the rims before I install rim strips or new tubes. Also can not hurt to brush a coat of rustoleum on there as well.

And speaking of rim strips. make sure they are covering the spoke nipples, or you will eat tubes.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: guzzitime on February 18, 2015, 01:35:05 PM
Best solution is not to buy Harley Davidsons.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Perazzimx14 on February 18, 2015, 01:45:17 PM
I have read that you can remove the rust and then apply Extend Rust Neutralizer to discourage further problems.

I am wondering if the shop used water to put the tires on. I don't ride in wet weather.

There are lots of things that can be done to correct the rust issue. Media blast or wire wheel the drop center and either paint with something like POR 15 or powdercoat. But 1st you need to find the root cause of the problem.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: arveno on February 18, 2015, 03:00:30 PM
# 1 rule if you own a Harley : do not take it to the dealer .

Second rule if you get a flat tire on a Harley : see rule # 1

...just kidding , not.

What model and year is your bike ?

Anyway the rear rim is the same size for years 16x3 since 1947,  you can easily find one on e bay for cheap .
I replaced the rear rim/wheel on my RK with the one from an electra , because it is tubeless. I have an extra rim in mint cond. if u like .( just the rim , not the whole wheel ) ..pay shipping and u got it .

If you have to pay someone to re-lace the rim over your hub , you better off buying a used complete wheel..they go for around 100s

keep us posted.
Marco


Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Pasta Hog on February 18, 2015, 03:51:03 PM
I went and checked it out. The tube has two problems. First, there is a circular tear all the way around the base of the valve stem. Second, there is a tear about 1.25" long in the sidewall area, in the radial direction. There are no signs of abrasion on the tube.

The dude at the shop said all tubes are Chinese now. I just checked the web and found one made in Japan, so I guess he's wrong.

I have the rim. There are a few spots of rust on it, but since there were no abraded areas on the tube, I don't think rust is the problem. I am going to take the rust off and hit the bare metal with Rust Reform.

Meanwhile, I am going to look on the Internet for a better tube.

(http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz329/TheNewSteveH/021815harleyrimrustspotsmall_zps1a6dc462.jpg)

(http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz329/TheNewSteveH/021815harleyrimstripsmall_zps6ba03ccd.jpg)
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: jetmechmarty on February 18, 2015, 04:04:17 PM
(http://gregsmotorcyclerepair.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/WSH-mrhot.jpg)

You can put the rim in this stuff as it won't bother the chrome.  It will remove the rust 100%.  Paint the affected areas with the inhibitor of your choice.  Done properly, you won't deal with the same spot twice.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Pasta Hog on February 18, 2015, 04:51:25 PM
I will keep that product in mind.

I used a brass brush and a Proxxon tool to get the rust off. I don't think the rust is even remotely related to the tube failures, though.

Tomorrow I plan to paint the affected areas with the best product I can find. I asked the shop to find me a European tube instead of Chinese/Indian/Mexican/whatever. They said the last tube was from Drag Specialties.

They're going to give me a break on the price of the new tire. Hopefully it will last an entire week.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: bassa99 on February 18, 2015, 04:56:18 PM
Rather interesting, HD rim Made In Italy :food
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Doppelgaenger on February 18, 2015, 05:01:21 PM
Rather interesting, HD rim Made In Italy :food

There's a recipe destined for success..
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Perazzimx14 on February 18, 2015, 06:04:56 PM
I bought a tube at the local Harley mega mart last summer. Thought it was funny that the Harley packaged tube was made in China. But like all the other tube I have bought over the years it holds air. What more can you ask for?
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: oldbike54 on February 18, 2015, 06:08:52 PM
Rather interesting, HD rim Made In Italy :food

 We referred to the Aermacchi made HD models as "spaghetti Harlettes" , just the latest in a tradition  :D

  Dusty
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: BrianK on February 18, 2015, 08:34:34 PM
I don't know where Pirelli tubes are made these days - perhaps Brazil or maybe still Italy - but they are awesome.  I was a Michelin tube guy for years (although always Pirelli for tires, if I could) but switched when I had a problem with a Michelin tube.  The difference in quality is such that you can readily see and feel it.

Try 'em.  You'll thank me.    ;-T
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: leafman60 on February 18, 2015, 08:44:16 PM
The inside of that rim doesn't look too bad at all. Unless you seal it or coat it, a little rust on any standard type steel spoked rim is not uncommon for reasons already noted. Clean it up as you plan to do and look at it again when you change tires.

You certainly don't need a new rim.  Good lord.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: youcanrunnaked on February 18, 2015, 09:41:26 PM
To me, the rip at the base of the valve stem suggests the tube is somehow binding and thereby putting stress on the rubber at that junction.  Maybe put some talcum powder on the next tube before installing it?
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Pasta Hog on February 18, 2015, 10:30:08 PM
Both of the failed tubes crapped out by the valve stem, so I agree that something weird is happening there. I am wondering if the deflated tube starts to yank on the stem. I do not understand the radial slit on the side. I will push them to hit it with some talc.

Maybe I can get them to order a Pirelli tube.

I feel like I need to get good at installing tires to avoid this crap. I really didn't want to go there.

I don't even know how to put the Jackal on my cheeseball Torin lift. I recall people coming up with weird adapters.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Perazzimx14 on February 19, 2015, 04:53:25 AM
Both of the failed tubes crapped out by the valve stem, so I agree that something weird is happening there. I am wondering if the deflated tube starts to yank on the stem. I do not understand the radial slit on the side. I will push them to hit it with some talc.



Is your tire installer getting over zealous with the tire lube? This can let the wheel spin faster than the tire shearing the valve stem off. This is why rider that run low pressure in their tires use rim locks.

Doing any burnouts?
Title: Re: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Kev m on February 19, 2015, 05:31:07 AM

I don't even know how to put the Jackal on my cheeseball Torin lift. I recall people coming up with weird adapters.

That's super easy. It basically equates to a couple blocks of wood and one plank.

The plank goes under the oil pan and extends back past the transmission to the point where a centerstand could attach.

The blocks are then used so the plank lifts on those centerstand attachment points at the same time it lifts on the pan, keeping the bike level on the lift or jack.

As a matter of fact, I actually have a welded steel adaptor plate that someone else on this board made to bolt to a plank. It's yours for postage if you want it. I can dig it out and take some pics if you're curious how it looks. Though I bet there are still pics in the GuzziTech archive of it.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Kev m on February 19, 2015, 06:59:18 AM
OK, sadly everything in the link at Guzzitech is dead except the text itself which leaves something to be desired without the pics.


http://archive.guzzitech.com/GuzziLift-Jeff_B.html


I THINK there may be more than just the one bracket, I have some angle brackets too, but as I never assembled it (I'd built my own years before acquiring this) I never bothered to check. I could play with it and see if anyone is interested in it.

But here's a photo of the all wood one I made, and of the plank and one support bracket I got from Jeff. I'm happy to ship that bracket to someone who wants it:

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-JAiqC3tYplE/VOXdG3R0tbI/AAAAAAAAD0s/hI6b587LNbU/w1039-h776-no/IMG_20110316_134749.jpg)

EDIT - AHHHH looking the plank from Jeff I think I figured it out, the two angle brackets are bolted on either end (just inboard of the support bracket). I BET they are for lateral stability, i.e. to keep the bike from shifting forward or backward on the lift!!! That's it. So if anyone wants this they just need to cut and drill a large block of wood/plank and I can send the brackets.

and here it is in use (though you can't really see the attachment points - jackstands are there for long term stability, but were not "necessary"):

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DzsBrfAIzLg/VOXd9aGSd8I/AAAAAAAAD1E/zYn-qGdtyIo/w1035-h776-no/IMG_8821.JPG)

on a related note, I think I miss that bike...

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7OqkAE5QA6M/VOXdG_wyJjI/AAAAAAAAD0w/rpXfJ8rIk1w/w987-h740-no/CDC3_4BC27C01.jpg)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uw4F6wLcw7w/VOXdG9dgILI/AAAAAAAAD0o/qcnrX01Oiig/w987-h776-no/2010-04-12%2B14.20.20a.jpg)
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: lrutt on February 19, 2015, 07:46:56 AM
BTW, I can't remember the last time I bought a rim strip. If I need one, I use electrical tape. I can make damn sure it covers everything it needs to cover, it's tight, does not slip, I can fully cover the whole spoke nipple section. I then use an exacto knife to cut out the hole for the valve stem. Been doing this for like 40 years.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: rocker59 on February 19, 2015, 08:44:18 AM
Sounds like a dealer installation issue to me.

I'd find someone else to mount tires and tubes.

Oh, and I used to use Continental tubes, when I had wire spoke wheels.  Usually in stock at the local BMW dealer.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Wayne Orwig on February 19, 2015, 08:44:25 AM
Both of the failed tubes crapped out by the valve stem, so I agree that something weird is happening there. I am wondering if the deflated tube starts to yank on the stem. I do not understand the radial slit on the side. I will push them to hit it with some talc.

Sounds like damage during the install. The main reason I do my own.

You need to apply talc to the tube and the tire inside so that the tube can move around a bit.
You want to inflate, FULLY deflate, then re-inflate the tube. That helps to seat the tire, then helps to relieve any stress on the tube.


On the rim, it sounds a bit 'cheap', but it is hard to beat duct tape. Pull off the bead protector and put a couple of wraps of narrow duct tape on there. Then put the rim protector back. Punch a hole for the valve stem of course. That will keep water from getting in around the spokes. That will help protect the tube if the rim protector moves. That might slow air escape if a tube does rip.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Pasta Hog on February 19, 2015, 12:20:11 PM
Thanks for the offer of the adaptor thing, Kev. Looks simple enough to do here, though.

I am thinking about putting the tube and tire on and then taking the wheel in to be mounted. I have to read up on installing tires, though.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Wayne Orwig on February 19, 2015, 01:46:29 PM
Thanks for the offer of the adaptor thing, Kev. Looks simple enough to do here, though.

I am thinking about putting the tube and tire on and then taking the wheel in to be mounted. I have to read up on installing tires, though.

Remember that you don't want the tube and tire to 'stick' together. That can tear the valve stem away from the tube. (though I generally have only seen that on dirt bikes with no rim locks) Excess lube may dry and stick them together. A nice layer of talc between the tub and tire is a good thing.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Perazzimx14 on February 19, 2015, 02:24:44 PM
Thanks for the offer of the adaptor thing, Kev. Looks simple enough to do here, though.

I am thinking about putting the tube and tire on and then taking the wheel in to be mounted. I have to read up on installing tires, though.

Installing tires and tubes is not as hard as you think nor is it as easy as it looks. One thing to remember if you are are forcing the tire over the bead you are doing it wrong. Small bites, 3 irons and make sure the tire 180 opposite of the irons is in the drop center. Also don't lift the irons  to much past 90 degrees when coaxing the bead over the rim. If you go to far you'll pinch the tube between the iron and rim.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Kev m on February 19, 2015, 02:58:30 PM
Thanks for the offer of the adaptor thing, Kev. Looks simple enough to do here, though.

No problem - open offer for the first person who notices it in this thread and wants it though. No reason to keep it languishing in my tool pile.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: krglorioso on February 19, 2015, 09:35:56 PM
The OEM Jackal wheels are easily enough converted to tubeless and there are many internet "How To" articles about this.  You have a Harley rear rim and if this has sufficient sidewall contact it too can be converted to tubeless.  I have converted both my Stones and highly recommend this modification as it makes patching a puncture very easy with the wheel on the bike, decreases total wheel weight and removes the friction problem of the tire to the tube.  The reduction in tire heat will extend your tire life.  Do it once; do it right.  Forget about it.  You also can forget about finding the perfect (non-Chinese) tube. 

Ralph
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Pasta Hog on February 20, 2015, 12:19:17 PM
Here's a new question. The liner says "17" on it, but I have a 16" wheel. Is this the wrong liner?
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Wayne Orwig on February 20, 2015, 01:02:50 PM
Here's a new question. The liner says "17" on it, but I have a 16" wheel. Is this the wrong liner?

hang it on the wall and admire it.
Replace it with a heavy tape, like duct tape. That solves a LOT of problems.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: oldbike54 on February 20, 2015, 01:18:20 PM
Here's a new question. The liner says "17" on it, but I have a 16" wheel. Is this the wrong liner?

 Some HDs run 17 inch front wheels . Sounds like the dealer that installed the tire cut a corner , not good . The last time I paid a shop to mount a tire , they installed a 17 inch tube on an 18 inch wheel , led to a whole series of issues, including a flat tire and out of pocket expenses . The shop is out of business , wonder why .
 
  Dusty
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Pasta Hog on February 20, 2015, 01:35:45 PM
I'm going to make them put a 16" strip on it, just in case.

I masked the wheel, and now I'm painting it with Rust Reformer. Hoping for the best.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: oldbike54 on February 20, 2015, 01:56:41 PM
 PH , seriously , I would find a different dealer .

  Dusty
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Pasta Hog on February 20, 2015, 01:58:39 PM
I got out my professional painting tools and went to work. I used the finest Chinese trash bag Home Depot sells.

I was worried that the product would get on the chrome in the wrong places, but it flakes right off, so I guess it only sticks to rust.

(http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz329/TheNewSteveH/022015harleyrimmasked_zpse443d0bc.jpg)
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: LowRyter on February 20, 2015, 09:57:11 PM
Here's a new question. The liner says "17" on it, but I have a 16" wheel. Is this the wrong liner?

outta be horse whipped.   >:(
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: krglorioso on February 20, 2015, 11:30:23 PM


The shop is out of business , wonder why .
 
  Dusty


You torched it?

Ralph
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: oldbike54 on February 20, 2015, 11:58:36 PM
You torched it?

Ralph

    :D :D :D :D :D :D
 Nope , they torched themselves , metaphorically  :o :D

  Dusty
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: bigbikerrick on February 21, 2015, 03:47:54 AM
I would recommend a michelin Airstop tube, they are good quality, and very thick. after the rust reformer you used, just talc up the tube real good, and it should be fine.
Rick.
Title: Re: Harley Rim Rust Issue - NGC
Post by: Pasta Hog on February 22, 2015, 08:22:06 PM
I got my Jackal out of the shop, and today I took it for a ride to Miami Beach. I was so paranoid from having three flats on the Harley, I thought I had a flat tire every time I hit a lump in the pavement. During the last three miles, I was positive the rear tire was squirming, and I limped home. Naturally, there was nothing wrong with it.

Before this, on my last four rides, I had three flats and a battery that went dead because the idle speed was too law. Four bad rides in a row will really get into your head.