Author Topic: Breather in Frame  (Read 3538 times)

Offline Groover

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Breather in Frame
« on: May 23, 2019, 08:07:48 AM »
Noticed that a lot of Guzzi models starting maybe around '82-'83 have the breather system going through the frame vs the canister. Is there any benefit to one over the other? Looks like someone has modified an old frame. Would you do this?



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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2019, 09:28:19 AM »
No.  :smiley:
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Offline dxhall

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2019, 10:09:18 AM »
Putting holes in a part of the frame that is subject to stress is dumb.  You will create a stress riser, i.e., a place where stresses will be focused, and where the piece will be most likely to crack.  A common example of a stress riser is a nick on a aluminum connecting rod. 

Offline wirespokes

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2019, 10:11:38 AM »
My 87LM utilizes the frame in the breather system, which I'm told, tends to rust from condensation. Not the best solution! 

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2019, 10:11:38 AM »

Offline Groover

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2019, 10:29:40 AM »
Just to be clear, I would not do this either. I saw that today, so thought I'd ask the benefit (if any) to one type of breather type over the other. Is it just a space efficiency thing?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 10:48:43 AM by Groover »
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Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2019, 10:39:22 AM »
Putting holes in a part of the frame that is subject to stress is dumb.  You will create a stress riser, i.e., a place where stresses will be focused, and where the piece will be most likely to crack.  A common example of a stress riser is a nick on a aluminum connecting rod.
but the factory put holes in the frame so they must not be worried about stress? the wall of that pipe are pretty thick so I wouldn't think stress is a factor.  ever heard of a frame cracking in that area?



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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2019, 10:59:58 AM »
The thing is.. they rust, and that rust eventually ends up in the pan. Occasionally, they should be cleaned, a total PITA.
No.  :smiley:
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Offline blackcat

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2019, 11:18:19 AM »
The thing is.. they rust, and that rust eventually ends up in the pan. Occasionally, they should be cleaned, a total PITA.
No.  :smiley:

A friend of mine had some rusty bits show up in his pan on a Lemans IV and he just converted it back to the early breather box.
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Offline dxhall

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2019, 11:52:28 AM »
The factory put a tube in the hole and then welded completely around the tube.  That would take care of the stress riser problem.  I don’t see that construction in your photo.

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2019, 11:59:04 AM »
The factory put a tube in the hole and then welded completely around the tube.  That would take care of the stress riser problem.  I don’t see that construction in your photo.

Welded would be fine..
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Offline Frenchfrog

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2019, 01:02:49 PM »
Using the frame as a breather box is not only cheap but not such a good idea as the frame will rust and then you have all sorts of crap going back into the engine.If I owned a bike with such a system one of the first things I'd do would be to revert back to the previous separate breather box...

Offline Idontwantapickle

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2019, 01:24:52 PM »
My 87LM utilizes the frame in the breather system, which I'm told, tends to rust from condensation. Not the best solution!

Most likely Guzzi wanted us to ride the Lemans hard, wear it out, and buy another in three or four years. Wouldn't that have been good for them?
That we cling to our old jalopies is on us. :laugh:
To the OP's question, no, it's not a great system in the long term unless cleaned on a regular basis. But that breather and airbox do work quite well together in my experience, better than most any pod filter.

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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2019, 01:39:52 PM »
 
So then what would you use, Stainless, Copper Aluminium?
Surely a frame could be treated with some sort of epoxy
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Offline Frenchfrog

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2019, 02:50:29 PM »
You'd never be able to get a sufficiently even coat in the tubes for that to work Kiwi...a new breather box either in plastic like some of the late bikes or stainless would be ideal I think. There is a nice but expensive aftermarket one available in Europe that's stainless and fits between the tank and frame rails on a tonti.You could quite easily fabricate something like that in copper tube or plastic waste pipe.

Offline bigbikerrick

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2019, 03:03:28 PM »
You'd never be able to get a sufficiently even coat in the tubes for that to work Kiwi...a new breather box either in plastic like some of the late bikes or stainless would be ideal I think. There is a nice but expensive aftermarket one available in Europe that's stainless and fits between the tank and frame rails on a tonti.You could quite easily fabricate something like that in copper tube or plastic waste pipe.

By any chance do you have a link or picture of this stainless aftermarket breather?
Thanks
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Offline Frenchfrog

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Offline Tom

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2019, 03:59:17 PM »
Cheap solution for the factory.  They don't think that their bikes will last as long as they have.  Besides, you would want to upgrade and buy the newer model.
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Offline Kiwi Dave

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2019, 04:10:52 PM »
but the factory put holes in the frame so they must not be worried about stress? the wall of that pipe are pretty thick so I wouldn't think stress is a factor.  ever heard of a frame cracking in that area?

My 97 California Anniversary 75° (purchased new in 2000) came with a small crack that leaked a little oil over the motor.  It took me quite some time to realize the oil wasn't being emitted from the motor, but from above.

Offline lucian

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2019, 06:48:32 PM »
I think that if the bike is ridden and not stored for long periods, the chance of corrosion inside the frame / breather section is minimal as the expelled oil will maintain a protective film on the steel.  If you are getting rust in your sump from a frame/ breather it's because it's not getting enough use.

Offline earemike

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2019, 03:53:36 AM »
I was hoping to make a box similar to the agostini breather, the stock early box may be too small, that moto special one does look good.

My reason for trying the ago style box is Manfred fitted them to some of his hot motors but the other one seems a very neat fit.

Given how often people complain about crap in their frame on the “in frame” models a nice breathing box sounds like a great option.
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Offline Roy gardner

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2019, 05:16:23 AM »
Wot Lucian said. The pre-frame oil condenser/catch pots were unpainted steel inside & dont have a rep for rusting, and they are thin. Sure, my V7Sport can had its thin spring rust away, but that was exactly as Lucian said, it sat while the rest of the bike was restored. I know it was popular among some owners to smash that non return valve & spring out to prevent a "restriction" but I dont buy that, I carefully cut mine open & replaced the spring, it works fine.
The reason for using the frame tube, I believe, is volume. The V7, 850T canister struggles to deal with a 950T because of the extra volume of air being compressed in the crank case. Hence the larger "Agostini" type which became available, & still is, through Steine Dinse & probably others.

The frame tube is ideal, heaps of volume, cool air passing under the tank & slopes down to a collection point for draining the condensed oil fumes back into the motor, except they dont, they drain somewhere else, air cleaner maybe? I dont have my LM 1000 frame here to look at right now, & I cant recall how the drain tube exits, is it from the lowest point, or is it a little higher, leaving a dam to catch the perceived rust particles?
I modified my Convert frame to replicate the LM frame, as close as reasonable, by brazing tubes into it. The top tube is in tension when the forces are greatest, under braking, a 19mm (3/4") divot filled with tube is not going to compromise it's strength.

The frame breather, Square Barrel, models dont have an oil drain down the back of the crank case like earlier models. The tapped hole was in my LM so I fitted the earlier style drain hoping that it might reduce  the mayonnaise generation in the rocker covers that Square Barrels seem so good at. Fail!
So I ran the rocker cover vents to a separate catch container, a Marmite jar, and vented that to atmosphere. Winner!
However, the mayo catching Marmite jar recently stopped generating mayo. I realised that my favorite oil,Castrol Activ 4T, had a change of packaging with "new improved" propaganda all over it. In this instance it was justified, Castrol must have recognised that their formulation was creating mayo & changed it.
Next oil change I will remove the Marmite jar & reintroduce the rocker vents to the frame.





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Offline Groover

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2019, 07:44:06 AM »
One of the Le Mans that I picked up a few years ago had a baby bottle setup like that Marmite jar.
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Offline Tom

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2019, 09:28:20 PM »
I have a hotel shampoo bottle for the transmission breather line on my SP1000NT.  Small and didn't cost anything.
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Online kidsmoke

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2021, 08:38:45 AM »
Chuck! I believe we have a winner!

resurrecting this old thread because I believe it solves a mystery that came up this summer.

Quick review of facts: out for a very vigorous day chasing a friend around Kentuckiana, halfway through the bike develops a terrible shudder. 200 miles back home, with all systems working normally, but feeling like I rode the entire return on the breakdown lane rumble strip.

culprit: toasted the carrier bearing @ 39K miles.



After replacing that bearing and the u joint, dropped the pan for an oil change, and the drain plug magnet held a treasure:



Was a sobering moment that had me examining everything I could, with everything in the block looking exceptionally good. head scratcher.

a Guzzi friend came across another thread  similar to this and had an a-ha moment, and I believe it's correct.  The excessive and constant vibration on the 200 mile return jarred loose debris in the breather. It was an atypical event, and certainly violent enough. The bike was dormant prior to my ownership (7 years now), and I did have a quiet 18 month period resulting in a bit of cheese in the sump during my ownership, and this damn Indiana rainforest humidity doesn't help.

So the question is, do ya'll concur? And how in the hell can you clean that spine tube on a tonti?
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Offline Frenchfrog

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2021, 09:15:54 AM »
Simply put a Le Mans or Ago one on it and forget the frame as a breather...

Offline Tom H

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2021, 11:06:26 AM »
On my '04 EVT, the "breather" lines to the heads are the oil return  lines from the frame breather. There is no simple way to set up a Tonti or Loop style breather can and still have the oil return to the engine.

With this said. A few years ago I was looking into this. I seem to remember that "I think" some spine frame bikes used a return that was attached to the oil pan drain bolt with a banjo type fitting. I just was never "sure" if that was actually a return line. If it was, then maybe my '04 can be set up that way with a breather can??

Tom
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Online kidsmoke

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2021, 11:27:57 AM »
I think that if the bike is ridden and not stored for long periods, the chance of corrosion inside the frame / breather section is minimal as the expelled oil will maintain a protective film on the steel.  If you are getting rust in your sump from a frame/ breather it's because it's not getting enough use.

or didn't, for some period of time.

I'd think this would come up often with 'barn finds'. All the tonti/cali's out there will be excellent candidates for what @frenchfrog linked to earlier, but for the whale dork tank...

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Offline xackley

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2021, 02:00:59 PM »
To make it simple, is it easy to remove the hose from frame, cap the tube going into the frame, and add a catch can somewhere low.

When I removed the valve covers there was mayo present. I used a little compressed air to open up the tubes while thinking that that was dumbest system I had ever seen.
I thought about my old R69 that just has a pipe to the open air that gets the job done,  and the goldwing that the catch can was full of water when I got it.

Don
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Online mechanicsavant

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Re: Breather in Frame
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2021, 03:06:54 PM »
V7II uses the top frame tube as a return for engine breather too. I noticed this while doing a fuel filter .
So the return hose now goes to a catch can & the return to the crankcase has an inline type fuel filter on it tucked up under tank , oh i left the check valve in place too.

 

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