Centauro gas mileage ** UPDATE **

[antmanbee]

JJ, let us know how it does!

Tom


This is from NORCAL Mike Sorge, Guzzi rider, master Lamborghini technician, and all around good guy...

Well the only way to adjust the fuel mixture is with a power commander or to retune the 15m stock ECU. If your happy with the way it runs then just feed it. No biggie. Not like your putting tons of miles.

This is a bunch of misinformation. The Centauro does not have a 15M ECU. Any bike with a 15M ECU can have the CO trim adjusted with Guzzidiag and or modify the map in Tunerpro.

[PJPR01]

I’ve already suggested Guzzidiag above a couple of times...seems to be falling on deaf ears for some reason.

[Chuck in Indiana]

This is a bunch of misinformation. The Centauro does not have a 15M ECU. Any bike with a 15M ECU can have the CO trim adjusted with Guzzidiag and or modify the map in Tunerpro.

True. You used to have to burn a chip in the Centauro computer. Will Creedon, Wayne Orwig, and I've forgotten  the name of the guy in Germany that did it..
I Don't Know.. if GuzziDiag can rewrite the Centauro computer.. or not.

[PJPR01]

The V10 Centauro is listed in the Guzzidiag drop down box of bikes....so I would  presume you can do all the normal operations.  If a new map was desired, Beetle could be contacted or Beard or Meinolf maybe as well...no idea on that specifically since I’ve never owned a Centauro.

[JJ]

True. You used to have to burn a chip in the Centauro computer. Will Creedon, Wayne Orwig, and I've forgotten  the name of the guy in Germany that did it..
I Don't Know.. if GuzziDiag can rewrite the Centauro computer.. or not.

Again, I already have the latest "Will Creedon chip" installed. 

The guy in Germany is Joe Caruso...and he's also the guy I got the STEEL timing / oil pump gears from, replacing the stock aluminum ones.

The new NGK spark plug caps + freshly cleaned spark plugs seemed to cure the 4000 RPM "BLIP"

Maybe I am being too "OCD / Anal" about the MPG.  In general, and as it is right now, I get 32-35 MPG in town....and 35-38 MPG on the highway, if I don't flog it too much.

My main concern is that everyone that rides behind me complains of SMELLING GAS (...and that's not ME....No Pun Intended)...and that is obviously an issue of it running too rich.

[Devildog]

Joe Caruso lives in the UK, near Leicester, but he may have a German supplier.

[Joliet Jim]

I think the other chip was a Karsten

[Chuck in Indiana]

I think the other chip was a Karsten

Yeah, that rings a bell..

[Tom H]

JJ, may I humbly suggest that you have the engine cold and have someone stand by and watch you leave. Again, at Henshaw I'm pretty sure it was you that had like smoke out of the pipes. By your MPG now, since you did some work, you sound about  right to me.

Again, my EVT is about 30mpg with a stop light every block (my Harley as well) and 40mpg on open freeway at about 70mph.

Tom

[Chuck in Indiana]

JJ, unless I've missed it, you still haven't said where the trim screw is set.. it *is* important.

[JJ]

JJ, unless I've missed it, you still haven't said where the trim screw is set.. it *is* important.

NOTED...and will check this!   In the meantime, you guys might find this interesting....

Recent OIL ANALYSIS report on the ol' Yellow Horse from Blackstone Labs in Fort Wayne, IN

[Chuck in Indiana]

Looks like she hasn't started eating the timing gears..   

[JJ]

JJ, unless I've missed it, you still haven't said where the trim screw is set.. it *is* important.

OK Chuck-O-Rama!! (lol) Here is the latest POOP with photos!!

Guzzi issues: (Although it ran GREAT overall during our recent 860+ mile round trip run to SOCAL...)

* Running way too rich...
* Idle running @ 2000 RPM, should be about 1250 RPM...
* Annoying "engine BILP" (hesitation....) between 3500-4000 RPM
* Enricher cable sticking...not returning...
* Spark plugs not malt colored, but black (too rich!!)
* Gas mileage 30-32MPG in town, 35-38MPG on the highway (...this may be the best I can get with an 8-Valve motor)
* People following me complained of smelling "GAS" and it was not me farting! (LOL)

SOLUTIONS:

* Installed new NGK spark plug caps...
* Pulled and cleaned spark plugs...replaced BEFORE Lake Henshaw, so they did not look too bad...
* Cleaned throttle bodies...they were nasty...see photos
* Cleaned Air Filter...
* Lubed Enricher and other throttle body cables
* Moved 270 degree Trim-Pot from 100 degrees (too rich) to 0 degrees (very lean)
* Road-tested - seems fine now..."BLIP" is now gone...engine idles correctly now at 1250 RPM
* Will pull plugs and check again after about 100 miles
* Will check the MPG on the next tank full and report accordingly...

[Chuck in Indiana]

It *appears* the trim pot is set full rich. Gently see if it will turn clockwise.. if so, you have found your problem.

[JJ]

It *appears* the trim pot is set full rich. Gently see if it will turn clockwise.. if so, you have found your problem.

It was...and we did....(gently turn it clockwise)....will run it for 100+ miles, pull the plugs, and let you know how they look.  The throttle bodies definitely needed ** CLEANING **, if you look at the photos. 

Thanks for all your advice, Chuck!

[Chuck in Indiana]

 Took you long enough. Four o'clock is full lean. Don't try to turn it past there. What you'll probably find is about 1 o'clock is where you'll end up. Keep turning it a little at a time until you get a lean stumble. Then, turn it ccw a smidgen, and Bob's your mother's brother.

[Wayne Orwig]

The V10 Centauro is listed in the Guzzidiag drop down box of bikes....so I would  presume you can do all the normal operations.  If a new map was desired, Beetle could be contacted or Beard or Meinolf maybe as well...no idea on that specifically since I’ve never owned a Centauro.

GuzziDiag will display the values for the TPS and sensors.
The 16M ECU does not 'remember' much, so even the idle trim is via trimpot. GuzziDiag can't write to the ECU.
The only way to program it is via a replacement rom. I burned a lot of roms back in the day. They used to be UV eraseable, but all you can get now are one time programable ones. Program it, then toss it to make a change. I probably still have a few left. Back in the day I even wrote some software that let you manipulate the rom values. Someone (Karsten?) made a more user friendly one.

[Nolan Woodbury]

The dated ECU and varying issues are the bane of the early EFI Guzzis, Sport 1100i included. The early K100 BMWs and Kawasaki GPz 1100 are two of the more popular machines using early EFI technology, many of which have been retrofitted with carbs. Thankfully, few are used for daily transportation or cross-country, but the motivated owner can make it happen. EFI has kept me away from a few motorcycles I'd otherwise enjoy owning. My 40-year old CX100 (with square-slide 30s and points) ripped the Henshaw rally mixing 85-mph freeway and twisty back roads, getting over 50-mpg. Old rules! 

[Chuck in Indiana]

The dated ECU and varying issues are the bane of the early EFI Guzzis, Sport 1100i included. The early K100 BMWs and Kawasaki GPz 1100 are two of the more popular machines using early EFI technology, many of which have been retrofitted with carbs. Thankfully, few are used for daily transportation or cross-country, but the motivated owner can make it happen. EFI has kept me away from a few motorcycles I'd otherwise enjoy owning. My 40-year old CX100 (with square-slide 30s and points) ripped the Henshaw rally mixing 85-mph freeway and twisty back roads, getting over 50-mpg. Old rules!

Ya know, Nolan.. that old crap works pretty well, as it did for *years.* Yes, you sort of have to know what you are doing with it, and maintain it. No set and forget.. but still.. 
Yeah, I'm a curmudgeon, too. 

[JJ]

Yes, after all the work we did yesterday, and a 30 mile shakedown ride, we discovered two (2) gas leaks - one braided gas line and one from the manual fuel petcock.

This morning, when I went out to the garage, if I would have lit a match, the whole house would have EXPLODED!! (lol)

Anyway, parts ordered and coming...so Mike and I will live to WRENCH another day. 

In the interim, when the going gets rough, the tough turn to The White Whale for solace...and it ran FINE without any leaks or issues!!

JJC

[Tusayan]

Ya know, Nolan.. that old crap works pretty well, as it did for *years.* Yes, you sort of have to know what you are doing with it, and maintain it. No set and forget.. but still.. 
Yeah, I'm a curmudgeon, too. 

The last carbureted bikes in particular, for example my SV650, run as well or better than most EFI bikes of any era.

Early digital EFI technology for Italian motorcycles means 1988, Ducati made EFI bikes that ran very well from that time on and the open loop technology of that time works as well as what Marelli makes now, arguably better.  The Centauro was developed roughly eight years after that so notwithstanding Guzzi’s success with their first EFI bikes (Californias) the five years or so of issues starting in 1996 were in implementation, not technology. The specifics include Guzzi having no emissions test cells that allowed them to dyno test prototype bikes until about 2002 when Aprilia bought and installed them at Mandello.

Also FWIW the engineer who ran those test cells at Guzzi told me face to face in 2002 that he understood Marelli shipped the Centauro EFI computers to Guzzi with an early version prototype chip by mistake. That may or may not be factually correct as he was at Ferrari in 1996 and joined Guzzi later.  He did ride a Centauro to work and told me he preferred Wayne’s map development software over what Marelli supplied 

[Wayne Orwig]

Also FWIW the engineer who ran those test cells at Guzzi told me face to face in 2002 that he understood Marelli shipped the Centauro EFI computers to Guzzi with an early version prototype chip by mistake. That may or may not be factually correct as he was at Ferrari in 1996 and joined Guzzi later.  He did ride a Centauro to work and told me he preferred Wayne’s map development software over what Marelli supplied 

Interesting.

Enough years have passed to mention this now. I was told by a person high up at Moto Guzzi North America, that there was a mistake in the delivered ROM. And it would be too time consuming and expensive to go through the testing of the correct ROM. But I was given the correct ROM, since it was known at the time that I could burn the ROMs. I gave a copy to anyone that wanted it. Including Will Creedon. He also remapped the fuel and timing to pass around.

[Joliet Jim]

The Wayne Chip is working great in my Beast still. Thanks again Wayne for that and fixing the trimpot.

[Tusayan]

Wayne, for the record (if anybody really cares 20 years later ) the fuel & spark maps and the map offset charts on the ‘corrected’ ROM you mention receiving from MGNA were identical to stock, but a comparison of other areas of the file showed maybe 10 hex values that were different and to my knowledge they were never explained, except by their significant effect on things remapping couldn’t fix MGNA didn’t know anything except what they were told by Italy (with all the reliability that implies) but a bunch of people looked at the file closely at the time, after you made it available.  Happy memories...  except for the untimely demise of Steve Van Twuyver (RIP) who was such a clever guy. His Fimfix.exe also comes to mind to those of us with enquiring minds 

Everybody who was ‘there’ then knows how horribly the original Centauro maps worked...  but I rode a bike delivered by the Slovenian distributor to a influential customer that ran perfectly as delivered, with a factory supplied chip.  It was a mystery... I think a great deal of confusion and organizational incompetence was involved in the overall situation, plus several other things that come into the category of conspiracy theories, those in particular involving chaos, compliance, screw ups, inability to reverse course and...  leaked files. 

[JJ]

While my Centauro is waiting for parts...Hell Hath No Fury...like "Moby Dick" aka The Great White Whale!!


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[Chuck in Indiana]

Enough years have passed to mention this now.

I knew about this, too.. and haven't mentioned it. All I've told people is to get Wayne's or Will's chip. My Centauro would barely run with the stock chip. When I took it out for a test ride, I seriously wondered if I would make it back to the dealer..but.. at WFO it made my hair stand on end. Had to have it. 

I think a great deal of confusion and organizational incompetence was involved in the overall situation,

With Guzzi at that time?? Shirley  you jest. I've said for a long time the only reason they assembled them was to make sure that you got all the parts..

[Sasquatch Jim]

The worst gas milage I have ever had on a motorcycle was a 400cc German bike.  Single cylinder two stroke Maico, it got about 15 miles per gallon unless Was using full throttle
 in the southern Oregon hills.  Then it got real bad milage.

[Wayne Orwig]

the fuel & spark maps and the map offset charts on the ‘corrected’ ROM you mention receiving from MGNA were identical to stock,

Yes, just a code change. The maps where the same.

[JJ]

Well, the new fuel petcock from MG Cycle is in...as is the new braided SS fuel line from JEGS...wrenching today...

Will try and get the poor ol' Yellow Horse BACK on the road and in the wind again!!

Still need to check the MPG since we leaned out the trim-pot...will file a report later

[John Ulrich]

Shirley  you jest. I've said for a long time the only reason they assembled them was to make sure that you got all the parts..

LMAO...That's the best assessment I've read in a long time!!!