Author Topic: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9  (Read 4372 times)

Online lucky phil

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2021, 10:37:10 PM »
Phil, I don't remember if it was you or one of your fellow countrymen that trolled me about the Chevy V8 on the LeMans board.  But I'm pretty sure it was you.

HAHA.

Funny you didn't mention pushrod Guzzi engines.   :rolleyes:

Really, I don't believe I've ever trolled anyone. It wouldn't be the first time I've been mistaken for some other poster though. What was I supposed to mention about Guzzi BB engine? We all know the BB is an archaic engine as is most of the rest of it. The Griso 8 valver roller tappet version is the zenith of the Guzzi BB line but its a Hi cam.
As for the Chev Gen111 and subsequent, well I like the engine but I'm under no illusions. It's not like the most efficient way to make torque, it's all about the cubic capacity which is a bit of a blunt instrument way to go about things.
Ciao     


 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 10:42:55 PM by lucky phil »
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Online jacksonracingcomau

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2021, 03:54:11 AM »
Really, I don't believe I've ever trolled anyone. It wouldn't be the first time I've been mistaken for some other poster though. What was I supposed to mention about Guzzi BB engine? We all know the BB is an archaic engine as is most of the rest of it. The Griso 8 valver roller tappet version is the zenith of the Guzzi BB line but its a Hi cam.
As for the Chev Gen111 and subsequent, well I like the engine but I'm under no illusions. It's not like the most efficient way to make torque, it's all about the cubic capacity which is a bit of a blunt instrument way to go about things.
Ciao     

Zenith ?
Making Carcano’s 700cc a 1200 follows the blunt thing
You may have meant omega
Dead now, for sure

Online lucky phil

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2021, 04:15:02 AM »
Zenith ?
Making Carcano’s 700cc a 1200 follows the blunt thing
You may have meant omega
Dead now, for sure

I actually meant Zenith, dictionary definition..... "the time at which something is most powerful or successful" The roller tappet Griso is the Zenith of the BB engine. Or the ultimate iteration if you like.

Ciao
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Offline Rough Edge racing

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2021, 05:17:43 AM »
Really, I don't believe I've ever trolled anyone. It wouldn't be the first time I've been mistaken for some other poster though. What was I supposed to mention about Guzzi BB engine? We all know the BB is an archaic engine as is most of the rest of it. The Griso 8 valver roller tappet version is the zenith of the Guzzi BB line but its a Hi cam.
As for the Chev Gen111 and subsequent, well I like the engine but I'm under no illusions. It's not like the most efficient way to make torque, it's all about the cubic capacity which is a bit of a blunt instrument way to go about things.
Ciao     

 The Chevy LS is lighter and far more compact than DOHC engines. It does need more capacity than a DOHC to make the same power but usually gets better fuel milage and displacement on a street engine only matters  to internet forums... :grin:
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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2021, 05:17:43 AM »

Offline mechanicsavant

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2021, 07:30:01 AM »
I’m on the fence on this one . I would prefer a solid crank , that said I’m guessing the current press fitting technology has come up a bit since the days of “adjusting” them with a wooden mallet ! BMW is fond of using heat & liquid nitrogen in many of its fitments . Perhaps someone like Kevin Cameron could help with this knowledge or someone equally smarter . Another thing I’ve noticed in this thread is the reference to “oversized “ bearings . All the crank shafts I’ve had done required “undersized “ bearings as you’re removing material , just sayin.

Online Kev m

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2021, 07:45:12 AM »
Another thing I’ve noticed in this thread is the reference to “oversized “ bearings . All the crank shafts I’ve had done required “undersized “ bearings as you’re removing material , just sayin.

Maybe saying the same thing but semantics - i.e. one talking about diameter and the other about physical size of the shell and amount of material?
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Offline LowRyter

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2021, 11:42:05 AM »
Really, I don't believe I've ever trolled anyone. It wouldn't be the first time I've been mistaken for some other poster though. What was I supposed to mention about Guzzi BB engine? We all know the BB is an archaic engine as is most of the rest of it. The Griso 8 valver roller tappet version is the zenith of the Guzzi BB line but its a Hi cam.
As for the Chev Gen111 and subsequent, well I like the engine but I'm under no illusions. It's not like the most efficient way to make torque, it's all about the cubic capacity which is a bit of a blunt instrument way to go about things.
Ciao     

Repeating my points from the LeMans forum.  Comparing the LS/LT series Chevy to the Ford DOHC.  Both engine have comparable power, torque and fuel economy.  The Chevy has a larger displacement at 376 cu in, whereas the Ford is 302 but revs higher.  The Chevy engine is less complicated, cheaper, smaller, lighter, and not as top heavy.   Not saying one is better than the other.  But sometimes hitting with blunt hammer once is better than hitting 20 times with a claw hammer.

I own an LS and have driven the Ford and both have their charm and drawbacks.  The big difference is whether the driver likes to rev a smaller engine or the muscle torque of the larger one. 

When comparing these engines to the big block Guzzi, consider that the 8v version had a larger displacement than the pushrod version so had advantages of both V8 engines.  Unfortunately, there were reliability problems in the first Guzzi iteration. 
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Online jacksonracingcomau

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2021, 06:43:24 PM »
I actually meant Zenith, dictionary definition..... "the time at which something is most powerful or successful" The roller tappet Griso is the Zenith of the BB engine. Or the ultimate iteration if you like.

Ciao

This is the internet and hence, opinion, you are entitled to yours
But I wonder about the criteria you use
For powerful, the MGS 01 is hard to beat, especially when you take in power to weight, my choice for zenith there
Hp/litre ? Your Daytona ?

Successful ?
Sales ?
Competition ?
Last time I looked there were 3 NOS Grisos for sale in Aus, made in 2016 I believe.
Worldwide there could be 100’s on showroom floors, I seriously doubt history will ever record the last BB as being the most successful of the line.
Anyone ever enter one in any form of competition? Let alone won?

The 750 Land Speed loopy might top chart
Or the original Le Mans in proddy racing
Mk3/4 in US Endurance racing ?

Perhaps you measure success as most recalls and least sold ?

Omega and sad death for the 50 years of BB Guzzis
By all accounts the worst BSFC figure of the whole lot, so perhaps if we use use the most fuel to make same power, it wins hands down. My favourite criteria , just my opinion, of course

Online lucky phil

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2021, 07:17:55 PM »
This is the internet and hence, opinion, you are entitled to yours
But I wonder about the criteria you use
For powerful, the MGS 01 is hard to beat, especially when you take in power to weight, my choice for zenith there
Hp/litre ? Your Daytona ?

Successful ?
Sales ?
Competition ?
Last time I looked there were 3 NOS Grisos for sale in Aus, made in 2016 I believe.
Worldwide there could be 100’s on showroom floors, I seriously doubt history will ever record the last BB as being the most successful of the line.
Anyone ever enter one in any form of competition? Let alone won?

The 750 Land Speed loopy might top chart
Or the original Le Mans in proddy racing
Mk3/4 in US Endurance racing ?

Perhaps you measure success as most recalls and least sold ?

Omega and sad death for the 50 years of BB Guzzis
By all accounts the worst BSFC figure of the whole lot, so perhaps if we use use the most fuel to make same power, it wins hands down. My favourite criteria , just my opinion, of course

My opinion is an engineering based one. The Griso roller engine is a way better engine from an engineering standpoint that the Daytona/Centy engine and all the other BB engines for mine. I dont believe anyone that knows the Daytona/Centy/MGS engine intimately would even consider it a contender. Just my view based on my experience and what I've seen of the BB engines.
Out of interest who has NOS Grisos available in aus? sounds tempting esp an SE.

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 07:35:28 PM by lucky phil »
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Online jacksonracingcomau

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #69 on: February 05, 2021, 04:03:27 AM »
My opinion is an engineering based one. The Griso roller engine is a way better engine from an engineering standpoint that the Daytona/Centy engine and all the other BB engines for mine. I dont believe anyone that knows the Daytona/Centy/MGS engine intimately would even consider it a contender. Just my view based on my experience and what I've seen of the BB engines.
Out of interest who has NOS Grisos available in aus? sounds tempting esp an SE.

Ciao
Lovely, truly
Nothing to do with logic or performance or success
You might want to read about Luap’s MGX (same engine, hit with blunt thing)
Hydraulic camchain adjusters might turn you on
But disaster to bloke who rides the fkn thing,

Re buying one 5 years after the last off line, try google but entirely possible Aussie dealers have cut losses and parted them out. Plenty of slightly used private sales, buy em up

Offline bikensail

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #70 on: March 02, 2021, 04:36:45 PM »

I believe that all the V7iii engines have one piece rods, unlike the V7ii before and the V85. I am not clear about the new V7 850 and would love to know.

I hypothesize that the new 850 has the pressed together crank and that is why they have limited the output to 65 hp. Indeed there may be other features of the V85 internals that are not in this new engine.

Here is a photo of a crank from a V7iii racer that is a used part on ebay.


« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 08:48:35 AM by bikensail »
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Offline kingoffleece

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #71 on: March 02, 2021, 05:20:44 PM »
I have a heron head which means I'm unfit for further discussion.  Or something like that.
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Offline Don G

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2021, 12:18:27 PM »
That crank assembly in the photo above sums up the nowadays throw away culture, it seems that it is a BIC lighter, the timing sprocket looks like it is non replaceable too.  :undecided:  DonG

Online lucky phil

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #73 on: March 03, 2021, 03:47:55 PM »
That crank assembly in the photo above sums up the nowadays throw away culture, it seems that it is a BIC lighter, the timing sprocket looks like it is non replaceable too.  :undecided:  DonG

It wouldn't surprise me if you cant even buy big and shells and rods for these as a spare part. Triumph engines were also like this 25 years ago. Have a worn valve guide in your Triumph Daytona engine? buy a complete cylinder head sir because we don't sell guides a spare part. Yes the cam sprocket looks like its been machined into the crank nose. It MAY be on an integral sleeve thats a shrink/interference fit on the crank. Triumph also did this on their 90's triple engines for the balancer drive gear. When they moved as they did occasionally it would destroy the engine. I hate this throw away engineering shit.

Ciao     
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 03:48:38 PM by lucky phil »
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Offline bikensail

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #74 on: March 03, 2021, 03:54:09 PM »
Although this design rubs traditionalists including me the wrong way, maybe it is no big deal. Someone pointed out that small block cranks could not be reground anyway because shells are not available.  If that is so then making a crank assembly that is not intended to be dismantled to minimize costs may be good.
It seems that the V7iii cranks are very reliable and long lasting as dealers I spoke to have never had to replace one.
I saw that crank assemblies are only $500 or so in Europe so much less than reconditioning an old one unless you had a machine shop.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 03:58:00 PM by bikensail »
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Online lucky phil

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #75 on: March 03, 2021, 04:25:36 PM »
Although this design rubs traditionalists including me the wrong way, maybe it is no big deal. Someone pointed out that small block cranks could not be reground anyway because shells are not available.  If that is so then making a crank assembly that is not intended to be dismantled to minimize costs may be good.
It seems that the V7iii cranks are very reliable and long lasting as dealers I spoke to have never had to replace one.
I saw that crank assemblies are only $500 or so in Europe so much less than reconditioning an old one unless you had a machine shop.

It's all logical arguments in the here and now but as a general concept what about when you have a single component failure. In this case like a cam drive sprocket tooth and you need to go and buy a whole assembly. Will whole assemblies be available in 20 years time? Everything is getting this way now and the Triumph cylinder head is an example I have given. I know you can re sleeve guides, I've done a few now but to eliminate the new guide option is not good. What about the modern car engine now, the cams are driven by friction from the crank, no keyways on the crank or the cams. On the engine in both my cars removing the front timing cover to simply replace the oil seal is now a major piece of work with half the engine coming apart and the cam timing needing to be done again. And from a lot of personal experience I can tell you the average dealership mechanic doesn't have the skills to do it now. Personally I'd pay an extra grand on the purchase price and have some maintainability retained. I don't like the concept of the throw away car or bike which is exactly the direction we are well into now. Then they just become a consumer item like a fridge or washing machine which aren't worth fixing anymore either.

Ciao   
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 04:27:48 PM by lucky phil »
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Offline Frenchfrog

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #76 on: March 03, 2021, 05:27:30 PM »
That crank assembly in the photo above sums up the nowadays throw away culture, it seems that it is a BIC lighter, the timing sprocket looks like it is non replaceable too.  :undecided:  DonG

Every single small block engine has the sprocket cast into the crank since day one..God knows why...

Online jacksonracingcomau

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #77 on: March 03, 2021, 10:37:46 PM »
Every single small block engine has the sprocket cast into the crank since day one..God knows why...

Yea, amazing ain’t it ?
44 years and no one’s worn a sprocket out
Tonti wasn’t silly after all, design was meant to be cheap transport for the masses, whole bike was half the price of my Le Mans, cheap and cheerful we said. Time has proven otherwise.
One piece rods may last as long, I certainly wouldn’t lose sleep if I had them in my Lario, in fact if I ever build a long stroke one I will use them, just to prove point.

Offline DaSwami

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2021, 08:38:07 AM »
I believe that all the V7iii engines have one piece rods, unlike the V7ii before and the V85. I am not clear about the new V7 850 and would love to know.

I hypothesize that the new 850 has the pressed together crank and that is why they have limited the output to 65 hp. Indeed there may be other features of the V85 internals that are not in this new engine.

Here is a photo of a crank from a V7iii racer that is a used part on ebay.




So this means the article was wrong?  MG has gone to this design beginning with the V7III series?  I'm not an expert.  But if you look at the parts catalogues, they show a 2-piece con rod in the V7II series and what appears to be the same assembly in the pic for the V7III series.  So my smugness was premature?

Much ado about nothing?  Just take good care of the motor and it will be ok?


Offline bikensail

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #79 on: March 05, 2021, 09:44:04 AM »
When I check the online parts diagrams the 2017 V7iii ones show the conventional two piece rods. The 2018 ones show the one piece. If anyone has access to the official ones that a dealer has it would be good to confirm this.
When I enter the 2017 part numbers it does show the two piece rods as being available and the crank by itself. The only part number for 2018 is for the complete crank with one piece rods on it.
Note that the price of the latter is way less than the former.
From this it would seem that the change was made in 2018, in the second year of the V7iii. Strange! Or maybe it took a year for the parts diagrams to be updated and they never went back to correct them.
As an aside I called one of the large US dealers. He had never had the need to open a V7iii but had an engine that had been torn open in a wreck, He checked and confirmed that the crank was pressed with one piece rods.
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Offline bikensail

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #80 on: March 05, 2021, 10:38:05 AM »
RESOLVED!
I have just seen the parts diagram for the new V7 850 engine and the crank and rods are the same configuration as in the current V7iii. The rods are  one piece. The part number for the assembly is different so I assume it is beefier.
It is not a detuned V85 engine at all but a new engine based more on the 750. Not really all that much to get excited about.
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Offline DaSwami

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2021, 07:34:39 AM »
So my 2018 Milano and Carbon Shine have the "newer" style crank and con rod assembly.  Time to ride them until they wear out!

Offline stimpoff

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Re: New crankshaft/connecting rod design for 2021 V7/V9
« Reply #82 on: May 02, 2021, 11:38:19 AM »
This is interesting topic. I suppose that pressed crankshaft has roller bearing instead plain bearing. But how they managed to put oil thru bearing to hollow rod?


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Harper's Moto Guzzi. Where we still answer the phone, use the highest quality parts, and also do Transmission, rear drive, and carb rebuilds fast. Call us at 816.697.3411 and get your problems resolved.
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