Author Topic: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid  (Read 932 times)

Offline Roy gardner

  • Sunday Rider
  • **
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: NZ
Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« on: April 24, 2021, 03:06:19 AM »
What is the current preference for ATF in Converts?
A few years ago, when I was on the Yahoo Convert Group, there was enthusiasm for Mil 5606 Aero Oil. I was reluctant, but eventually was persuaded, and have been using it in my LM IV powered Convert for 5 or 6 years. I see Rodekyll was using it, is this still the case?
A friend who is running 5606 in his very standard Vert, alerted me to his second round of problems. He set to change the feed hose from tank to pump and discovered a huge amount of emulsion and water living amongst his oil. He had previously had contamination & the filter was full of crap.
I promptly proceeded to dip mine with a plastic hose to get a core sample that I could read, crikey, it's its a diabolical boars nest!! Same crap, water on the bottom, emulsion above it, and dirty oil on top. It was last run 4 days ago.
I'm confident that the Aero oil is attracting water, it's got to go, whats the current thinking guys?
MGNOC L112
1973  850 GT (sold 1979)
1974  160 Stornello (bought new 1978)
1972 V7 Sport, (bought 1979, still running strong)
1977 Convert (bought 2009)
1974  850T (ComposT, pawned to buy Vincent parts!
1985? LM 1000 (saved from a savage, has become hotrod Convert)

Offline Don McKinnon

  • New Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Location: New Zealand
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2021, 04:43:07 AM »
Here are photos of the 'emulsion' etc. Normal looking fluid drained before removing filter. "Milo" drained from tank when off bike.







1973 V7 Sport
1975 Convert (project)
1976 Convert

Online ray bear

  • Sunday Rider
  • **
  • *
  • Posts: 136
  • Location: South Australia
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2021, 04:47:41 AM »
Hi Roy, now you have me concerned, I also have been running aeroshell 41  5606 for the 12 months Ive had my convert for but have not yet sampled the tank, will take a sample tomorrow. My convert gets  used weekly and so far only travelled 12000 kilometres with it   and would like to think the fluid gets enough heat to dissipate any condensation . I live in a warm dry climate in south Australia and condensation is not  really an issue. Perhaps your in a colder damp climate that may be causing you issues but will check it out tomorrow .Bill
72 V7 sport
73 Eldo police special
68 BSA rocket 3
74 Norton Commando
78 Honda CBX 1000
47 HRD vincent Rapide
XT 500 Yamaha
76 Convert
84 FLHX limited edition electra glide

Online ray bear

  • Sunday Rider
  • **
  • *
  • Posts: 136
  • Location: South Australia
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2021, 04:53:44 AM »
That's not an ingress of engine oil getting in the system via a leaking converter pump seal. Hmm hopefully some one with more knowledge on this will chime in.    just a thought.
72 V7 sport
73 Eldo police special
68 BSA rocket 3
74 Norton Commando
78 Honda CBX 1000
47 HRD vincent Rapide
XT 500 Yamaha
76 Convert
84 FLHX limited edition electra glide

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2021, 04:53:44 AM »

Offline Roy gardner

  • Sunday Rider
  • **
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: NZ
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2021, 05:06:23 AM »
Hi Roy, now you have me concerned, I also have been running aeroshell 41  5606 for the 12 months Ive had my convert for but have not yet sampled the tank, will take a sample tomorrow. My convert gets  used weekly and so far only travelled 12000 kilometres with it   and would like to think the fluid gets enough heat to dissipate any condensation . I live in a warm dry climate in south Australia and condensation is not  really an issue. Perhaps your in a colder damp climate that may be causing you issues but will check it out tomorrow .Bill

Hi Bill,
Thanks for insinuating that because we live behind the Long White Cloud, that we have a cold damp climate! I live at the top of the South Island where wine grapes are grown in the warm dry stony river beds. Sure, not quite as dry as the the desert of WA, but not quite damp enough to cultivate condensation in oil tanks, thank you. :wink:
BTW, NGC, I guess your '47 Rap has a 3 digit engine number? My Dec 48 is 1398.
Roy
MGNOC L112
1973  850 GT (sold 1979)
1974  160 Stornello (bought new 1978)
1972 V7 Sport, (bought 1979, still running strong)
1977 Convert (bought 2009)
1974  850T (ComposT, pawned to buy Vincent parts!
1985? LM 1000 (saved from a savage, has become hotrod Convert)

Online ray bear

  • Sunday Rider
  • **
  • *
  • Posts: 136
  • Location: South Australia
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2021, 05:34:11 AM »
engine number 471  .it has the early long wheel base, 8 inch headlamp





get monitor size
72 V7 sport
73 Eldo police special
68 BSA rocket 3
74 Norton Commando
78 Honda CBX 1000
47 HRD vincent Rapide
XT 500 Yamaha
76 Convert
84 FLHX limited edition electra glide

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 12513
  • Happily stuck in the past.
    • Antietam Classic Cycle
  • Location: Rohrersville, Maryland
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2021, 08:02:02 AM »
I've always just used the closest equivalent to the factory specified Dexron II. Right now, that seems to be Dexron III/Mercon. I'll be changing all of the fluids soon and plan to use Redline D4 ATF this time. https://www.redlineoil.com/d4-atf
Charlie

Offline Roy gardner

  • Sunday Rider
  • **
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: NZ
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2021, 03:22:42 PM »
I've always just used the closest equivalent to the factory specified Dexron II. Right now, that seems to be Dexron III/Mercon. I'll be changing all of the fluids soon and plan to use Redline D4 ATF this time. https://www.redlineoil.com/d4-atf
Thanks Charlie. Do Guzzi specify Dexron II for the Cali II Converts? They specified Dexron for the Round Barrel models. (That is first generation Dexron with whale oil, no subsequent upgrade numbers)


keyboard symbols copy paste


IIRC previous discussions centered around folklore that said Dexron II & III with "friction modifiers" are too slippery for our old torque converters, hence the use of Mil 5606 which is a simple mineral oil used in hydraulics. My understanding is that the slippery friction modifiers are to enable smooth shifting of sophisticated self changing gearboxes which are full of clever valving and small oil passages. The matching TC's must be built to closer tolerances, and maybe different shaped vanes, to work with this slippery stuff??
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 03:32:30 PM by Roy gardner »
MGNOC L112
1973  850 GT (sold 1979)
1974  160 Stornello (bought new 1978)
1972 V7 Sport, (bought 1979, still running strong)
1977 Convert (bought 2009)
1974  850T (ComposT, pawned to buy Vincent parts!
1985? LM 1000 (saved from a savage, has become hotrod Convert)

Offline Roy gardner

  • Sunday Rider
  • **
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: NZ
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2021, 03:24:57 PM »

That's not an ingress of engine oil getting in the system via a leaking converter pump seal. Hmm hopefully some one with more knowledge on this will chime in.    just a thought.
[/quote]
I dont believe so Bill. I would expect a darker colour, maybe black from engine oil, & no water content. Here is what I found by dipping the tank.




« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 03:31:07 PM by Roy gardner »
MGNOC L112
1973  850 GT (sold 1979)
1974  160 Stornello (bought new 1978)
1972 V7 Sport, (bought 1979, still running strong)
1977 Convert (bought 2009)
1974  850T (ComposT, pawned to buy Vincent parts!
1985? LM 1000 (saved from a savage, has become hotrod Convert)

Offline Roy gardner

  • Sunday Rider
  • **
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: NZ
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2021, 03:46:32 PM »
engine number 471  .it has the early long wheel base, 8 inch headlamp





get monitor size

Very nice! Here's my B,1398 and the die cast C,10545 which I enjoy riding. It has just turned over 10,000 miles and is having a service. You may notice that they are both twin cylinder Comets with separate gearboxes.  :grin:





MGNOC L112
1973  850 GT (sold 1979)
1974  160 Stornello (bought new 1978)
1972 V7 Sport, (bought 1979, still running strong)
1977 Convert (bought 2009)
1974  850T (ComposT, pawned to buy Vincent parts!
1985? LM 1000 (saved from a savage, has become hotrod Convert)

Online Bulldog9

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1817
  • Location: United States
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2021, 05:01:04 PM »
I've got a 1 gal can of that aviation fluid if anyone wants it. I won't be using it.
The Living: 1976 Convert, 2007 GRiSO, 2016 Stornello #742, 2008 1200 Sport
The Departed: 2017 MGX, 2014 Norge GT,  In Stasis: 1978 XS750, XS1100SF (134K miles and going)

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 12513
  • Happily stuck in the past.
    • Antietam Classic Cycle
  • Location: Rohrersville, Maryland
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2021, 05:02:54 PM »
Thanks Charlie. Do Guzzi specify Dexron II for the Cali II Converts? They specified Dexron for the Round Barrel models. (That is first generation Dexron with whale oil, no subsequent upgrade numbers)


keyboard symbols copy paste


IIRC previous discussions centered around folklore that said Dexron II & III with "friction modifiers" are too slippery for our old torque converters, hence the use of Mil 5606 which is a simple mineral oil used in hydraulics. My understanding is that the slippery friction modifiers are to enable smooth shifting of sophisticated self changing gearboxes which are full of clever valving and small oil passages. The matching TC's must be built to closer tolerances, and maybe different shaped vanes, to work with this slippery stuff??

I've been running Dexron II/Mercon for the last 20k miles. Hooks up well, mpg in the low 40s, so it must not be "too slippery". Guzziology says to use Dexron.
 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 06:33:03 PM by Antietam Classic Cycle »
Charlie

Online ray bear

  • Sunday Rider
  • **
  • *
  • Posts: 136
  • Location: South Australia
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2021, 02:10:23 AM »
Hi Roy, dipped my tank this morning after 12000km and am happy with what my aero shell 41 looks like. Maybe you have internal hose problems. Apart from the atf pump seal allowing engine oil in from the timing cover I cant think of any other way contaminant can  ingress the system. If there was a fault at the convertor you would think there would be fluid residue around the bell housing



« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 02:12:11 AM by raybear »
72 V7 sport
73 Eldo police special
68 BSA rocket 3
74 Norton Commando
78 Honda CBX 1000
47 HRD vincent Rapide
XT 500 Yamaha
76 Convert
84 FLHX limited edition electra glide

Offline Roy gardner

  • Sunday Rider
  • **
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: NZ
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2021, 05:10:41 AM »
Hi Roy, dipped my tank this morning after 12000km and am happy with what my aero shell 41 looks like. Maybe you have internal hose problems. Apart from the atf pump seal allowing engine oil in from the timing cover I cant think of any other way contaminant can  ingress the system. If there was a fault at the convertor you would think there would be fluid residue around the bell housing




Well done! The syringe hose did go to the tank bottom I presume? Maybe the desert of WA is dryer than sunny Marlborough!  :grin:Keep an eye on it. At 12000kM you only have 18000kM left before your next oil change.
I have a confession; I have just toted up the miles I have done since fitting the Square Barrel engine and it comes to 25000 Miles which is 5000, or 7000 miles, over the recommended 20000 or 18000 , depending which book you read, Owner's manual, or Workshop manual. I never thought I would go that far on it but it has done some trips up & down the two islands.
Re your comment about fluid residue at the bell housing; yes, I have that. :sad: But I dont believe it's drawing moisture in there, being under pressure, only leaking a small amount of fluid out.
I suspect that Don's one has not done anywhere near this number of miles on recently changed fluid; Don?

This event will hasten the transfer of the LM IV motor back to it's original frame, the intention is to rectify the TC leak while the power plant is out, flush the system and fit new hoses & fluid. Yes, a Le Mans IV Convert, (Lemonvert) and it will have a sidecar shortly as well!

The choice of two oils which I have selected to make a decision on are;
Penrite ATF 33 Type F    https://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/atf-33-type-f-mineral
or Penrite Classic  ATF Dexron II D     https://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/classic-atf-mineral

Taking on board the message from Charlie, maybe the Classic Dexron II D  is the right answer.

Just for interest, does anybody know what Mike Tiberio uses in his LSR Eldovert?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0BVOTC38nc&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3kob3C6OJ2-dt9S2jULnsSp4bKkFPUtefAGeketC3_p6uoqu6c__PKOIQ
MGNOC L112
1973  850 GT (sold 1979)
1974  160 Stornello (bought new 1978)
1972 V7 Sport, (bought 1979, still running strong)
1977 Convert (bought 2009)
1974  850T (ComposT, pawned to buy Vincent parts!
1985? LM 1000 (saved from a savage, has become hotrod Convert)

Offline Roy gardner

  • Sunday Rider
  • **
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: NZ
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2021, 03:09:48 AM »
So, here is my conclusion;
I chose to contradict Guzziology recommendations this time. Doesn't happen often,I have large respect, and value Richardson's advice.
After emails & phone discussions with Penrite, we agreed that the simple system consisting of a pump & TC didnt need friction modifiers, just a good hydraulic oil suitable for exactly that. So I purchased the Penrite ATF 33, Ford spec, no friction modifiers.
I removed the tank, cooler & 3 easily accessible hoses, washed them in solvent and dried them with air & heat gun, then reassembled and added the ATF.
The return hose from cooler to tank was left with the tank end in a container. On startup,it took a few seconds,  it then burped contaminated oil into the container while I poured clean oil into the tank. The exiting oil never ran perfectly clear, but the colour changed from cack brown to aerated pink fairly quickly so I stopped & reconnected the hose to the tank then finished the topping up procedure.





First thing this morning, after sitting overnight, I dipped the tank with my 3/16" bore hose. Clean oil to the bottom!




That was followed by a test ride, 30 miles, open road, short burst to 110 on the speedo, close to 100 real (MPH that is), in high, and around town in low.
 Thoughts? It felt more responsive straight out of the driveway, crisper response to the throttle right across the range and clearly transmitting good power to get to the ton quickly without any hesitation.

I would expect any fresh, clean oil would perform better that the dirty water emulsion that was living in there.
It has been a lesson to me in keeping better track of my maintenance. (I religiously do the other oil & filter changes on time) I have made a note on my maintenance blackboard of the next TC oil change along with the others.

Thank you to those who responded and offered thoughts and advice.

MGNOC L112
1973  850 GT (sold 1979)
1974  160 Stornello (bought new 1978)
1972 V7 Sport, (bought 1979, still running strong)
1977 Convert (bought 2009)
1974  850T (ComposT, pawned to buy Vincent parts!
1985? LM 1000 (saved from a savage, has become hotrod Convert)

Offline Loop Tonti EV

  • New Goose
  • *
  • Posts: 87
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2021, 05:30:23 PM »
Glad you got it sorted. I have a 76 convert that I'll be putting back on the road after 10 years. I'll try your method above. I also thought of trying regular power steering fluid. Years ago they recommended atf dexron or dexron II in power steering units. I can't seem to find the specs on ps fluid but I thought of trying it just to see how it would work.

Offline Roy gardner

  • Sunday Rider
  • **
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: NZ
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2021, 03:35:20 AM »
Glad you got it sorted. I have a 76 convert that I'll be putting back on the road after 10 years. I'll try your method above. I also thought of trying regular power steering fluid. Years ago they recommended atf dexron or dexron II in power steering units. I can't seem to find the specs on ps fluid but I thought of trying it just to see how it would work.
Yea, you might get lucky. There are some older type power steering fluids which seem interchangeable. Most of them seem to have extra "slippery stuff" in them.  Good luck!
MGNOC L112
1973  850 GT (sold 1979)
1974  160 Stornello (bought new 1978)
1972 V7 Sport, (bought 1979, still running strong)
1977 Convert (bought 2009)
1974  850T (ComposT, pawned to buy Vincent parts!
1985? LM 1000 (saved from a savage, has become hotrod Convert)

Offline Muzz

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6862
  • On the backside of the planet.
  • Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2021, 05:29:56 AM »
Very nice! Here's my B,1398 and the die cast C,10545 which I enjoy riding. It has just turned over 10,000 miles and is having a service. You may notice that they are both twin cylinder Comets with separate gearboxes.  :grin:





Is that a Seeley frame there Roy?

Muzz. Cristchurch, New Zealand
03 Breva

Life is just a bowl of Allbran
Ya wake up in the morning and it's there

Offline Roy gardner

  • Sunday Rider
  • **
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: NZ
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2021, 01:44:58 PM »
Is that a Seeley frame there Roy?


No Muzz, it a replica Egli that I built. One day, when you least expect it, I'll bring it to a Guzzi Rally and show you. I think it's eligible, it has all sorts of Guzzi bits, Sport/Eldo front brake lever, V50 Carbs, tank rubbers, fork stem bits etc.  :wink:
MGNOC L112
1973  850 GT (sold 1979)
1974  160 Stornello (bought new 1978)
1972 V7 Sport, (bought 1979, still running strong)
1977 Convert (bought 2009)
1974  850T (ComposT, pawned to buy Vincent parts!
1985? LM 1000 (saved from a savage, has become hotrod Convert)

Offline Muzz

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6862
  • On the backside of the planet.
  • Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Re: Convert, Auto Trans Fluid
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2021, 08:03:01 PM »
No Muzz, it a replica Egli that I built. One day, when you least expect it, I'll bring it to a Guzzi Rally and show you. I think it's eligible, it has all sorts of Guzzi bits, Sport/Eldo front brake lever, V50 Carbs, tank rubbers, fork stem bits etc.  :wink:

Hang, in Motueka the guy with the Harley (wife had a V7) suffered only a bit of good natured ribbing.  I am sure that beast would be greeted with open arms. :thumb:
Muzz. Cristchurch, New Zealand
03 Breva

Life is just a bowl of Allbran
Ya wake up in the morning and it's there

 


Harper's Moto Guzzi : Go Ride , Break Parts, Call me!
Harper's Moto Guzzi. Where we still answer the phone, use the highest quality parts, and also do Transmission, rear drive, and carb rebuilds fast. Call us at 816.697.3411 and get your problems resolved.
http://www.harpermoto.com
Advertise Here