What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil

[Luap McKeever]

I got 10w60 at my local BMW dealership (car dealership, not bike), they carry Castrol TWS which Castrol specially design for BMW M cars, price is the appox same as Agip 10w60. my Guzzi dealership is 100 km away. got 3 BMW dealership within 30 km

Thats what I do.  Except my local bmw motorcycle shop carries it.  He meant to buy 1 case just for us local Guzzi guys.  He somehow ended up with 4 cases.  He sells them to me $12 per quart.

[Lannis]

Also read a response from a letter written to Amsoil Corporation.  They recommend their 20W-50 MCV in place of the 10W-60.

And along with that, you'll find that Amsoil doesn't sell a 10w-60 oil.   

A cop sees a guy looking for something on Elm Street.   "You lose something?"   "Yeah, a $50 bill".     "Lose it right around here?"   "No, over on 2nd street".   "Why you looking here then?"   "'Cause the light's better here!"

Of COURSE Amsoil's recommending their own brand ... even if it's different.   That's what they DO!

How come it's some kind of scam for Guzzi to recommend Agip, but Amsoil has only our interests at heart in recommending THEIR 20w-50 instead of anyone else's 10w60?

Lannis

[PeteT]

OK- I've read and considered all the responses to my posts, and have one question:  Can anyone... anyone,  present actual data which shows the requirement for a 10w-60 weight synthetic oil in the later bikes?  Other than the suggestion by Guzzi- which may just as well have originated in their marketing department or warranty claims department as their engineering department?

PeteT.

[old head]

Moto Guzzi Technical bulletin

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/mg_manuals/moto_guzzi_technical_note_010-2006.pdf

Old Head

[Kev m]

Since no one here is privy to Guzzi engineering and testing data I'll say no.

That said I've posted temp data showing my stock Breva runs hotter than my stock Jackal despite having an oil cooler.

Similarly Pete Roper has shown pics of the 8V heads and the new exhaust valve oil cooling passages.

It's also obvious how lean and hot late model bikes run to meet leaner emissions standards.

[rodekyll]

OK- I've read and considered all the responses to my posts, and have one question:  Can anyone... anyone,  present actual data which shows the requirement for a 10w-60 weight synthetic oil in the later bikes?  Other than the suggestion by Guzzi- which may just as well have originated in their marketing department or warranty claims department as their engineering department?

PeteT.

Very simply put:  It's up to you, not me to give your argument credibility, and vague innuendo is not credible unless you're pandering it like Glenn Beck.  If you are arguing that the current factory specs are mere 'suggestions' and originating in the marketing department, it is your job to prove it, not mine.  After all, it is you making the argument.  If you can't find any specs, how do you know what you're disagreeing with?

[PeteT]

Moto Guzzi Technical bulletin

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/mg_manuals/moto_guzzi_technical_note_010-2006.pdf

Old Head

Interesting reading!  Especially the opening line:  "Due to the stricter homologating specifications, our motorcycles use oils with more evolved technical features".  A quick search for the defination of the word "homologating" lead me to the following Wikipedia explaination:

"Homologation is a technical term, derived from the Greek homologeo (ὁμολογέω) for "to agree", which is generally used in English to signify the granting of approval by an official authority. This may be a court of law, a government department, or an academic or professional body, any of which would normally work from a set of strict rules or standards to determine whether such approval should be given. The word may be considered very roughly synonymous with accreditation, and in fact in French may be used with regard to academic degrees (see apostille). Certified is another possible synonym, while to homologate is the infinitive verb form.

In today's marketplace, for instance, products must often be homologated by some public agency to assure that they meet standards for such things as safety and environmental impact. A court action may also sometimes be homologated by a judicial authority before it can proceed, and the term has a precise legal meaning in the judicial codes of some countries".

My apologies to the Marketing and Warranty departments- it looks as though this Urban Myth had it's beginnings in the Legal department. ;D  Absolutely no mention of engeneering concernes mentioned.

PeteT.

[Kev m]

Wow,  it can't be just me who understood that line in the bulletin to mean "ever tightening emissions standards".

That in turn means ever leaner mixtures and hotter engine temps which put a higher demand on the oil.

This isn't some evil plot.

[Lank]

That's funnier than hell   "we warmly recommend"  because at high temperatures we feel that the higher viscosity is needed!!!!!...  I think they just don't want people running crap oil in their engines, and I don't blame them for saying and printing as they are because if people were running crap oil and engines suffered they would be the recipient of bad publicity.   But "warmly recommend"  is a far cry from "severe engine damage may result"  "other oils will result in failure"  etc etc      

[kballowe]

Didn't the Ducati link with MCN data claim all oils lose viscosity pretty quickly?

So if 10-60 quickly goes to 50, then 40, what do you think likely happens to 20-50 or 15-50?

Is it possible that the company ENGINEERS took this into account with THEIR RECOMMENDATIONS?

Some of the 20W-50 also shear quite readily.
However, there are others that do not.  In comparing used oil analysis(s) for the same application between the AGIP 10W-60 and some of the better 20W-50 oils, it appears that that particular 10W-60 doesn't stay in grade nearly as well as many of the 20W-50's.

That was my point.  The only way to know for sure us to submit an oil sample....  or cheat and go to bobistheoilguy.com and read the used oil analysis(s) provided by the members.

[rodekyll]

First, this paper reads like an autogenerated translation from some foreign language.  Nobody uses the term anymore, which means there's probably a better synonym for whatever they were trying to get across.  

That said, going from no supporting evidence to the wikkipeedonya in support of an obscure term isn't helping.  The W hasn't been homologated as an authority on anything.   ;)  

Also, you need to offer a discrete context for the definition in your argument.  You just toss it all out in a jumble, take the part where they used it in a sentence as part of the definition, draw a line that doesn't exist between the [random examples for use in a sentence] and Guzzi, and assume that since the aura of legal officialness somehow surrounded the random examples, you can conclude a lawyer did it.  From there you jump the tracks completely and declare factory oil specifications to be an urban myth started in the Moto Guzzi legal department.

I'll let the lurkers sort that out for themselves.


Let's look at a more "standard" definition from Websters:


Definition of HOMOLOGATE
transitive verb
: sanction, allow; especially : to approve or confirm officially
— ho·mol·o·ga·tion \-ˌmä-lə-ˈgā-shən\ noun

Synonyms: accredit, approbate, authorize, clear, confirm, finalize, formalize, approve, OK (or okay), ratify, sanction, warrant
Antonyms: decline, deny, disallow, disapprove, negative, reject, turn down, veto

How does this standard useage (not the ancient greek and random examples) NOT apply to engineering decisions when we are in an engineering context?

[PeteT]

I still haven't seen any actual numbers put forth, only opinion and conjecture.  Just out of curiosity, what is the average operating oil temperature of some of the later bikes?  Once we know for sure, it will be a lot easier to make an informed decision.

PeteT.

[rodekyll]

I agree that the lack of data can be frustrating.  I've had temp/pres gauges on my rigs since the 70s.  I've offered the numbers up up in these discussions and they're largely ignored, so I gave up.  I imagine just about everyone else with something educated to say about it gave up a long time ago.  Now the real debate is which is better -- oil or air popt corn.

[insert that popcorn smarm here]

[PeteT]

First, this paper reads like an autogenerated translation from some foreign language. Nobody uses the term anymore, which means there's probably a better synonym for whatever they were trying to get across.  

That said, going from no supporting evidence to the wikkipeedonya in support of an obscure term isn't helping.  The W hasn't been homologated as an authority on anything.   ;)  

Also, you need to offer a discrete context for the definition in your argument.  You just toss it all out in a jumble, take the part where they used it in a sentence as part of the definition, draw a line that doesn't exist between the [random examples for use in a sentence] and Guzzi, and assume that since the aura of legal officialness somehow surrounded the random examples, you can conclude a lawyer did it.  From there you jump the tracks completely and declare factory oil specifications to be an urban myth started in the Moto Guzzi legal department.

I'll let the lurkers sort that out for themselves.


Let's look at a more "standard" definition from Websters:


Definition of HOMOLOGATE
transitive verb
: sanction, allow; especially : to approve or confirm officially
— ho·mol·o·ga·tion \-ˌmä-lə-ˈgā-shən\ noun

Synonyms: accredit, approbate, authorize, clear, confirm, finalize, formalize, approve, OK (or okay), ratify, sanction, warrant
Antonyms: decline, deny, disallow, disapprove, negative, reject, turn down, veto

How does this standard useage (not the ancient greek and random examples) NOT apply to engineering decisions when we are in an engineering context?

Looks to me like Moto Guzzi's still using the term.  In fact, they chose it over the phrase:  "Due to the bloody incredible demands our engines place upon lubricating oil, we strongly suggest you use XXX" ;D

Actually, the Webster's definations are not all that different from the Wikipedia's definations.  I'm not all that great a fan of "Wikkipeedonya" either- but it was the first thing to come up and the definition didn't seem all that unbeleivable- at least not to me.  The similarity of the Webster's definations with the Wikipedia explaination does somewhat seem to homogolate Wikipedia in this case.  

Still, MG should have been more straight forward and stated the real reason behind their requirements, in plain English, if they wanted their customers to understand.

PeteT.

[PeteT]

I agree that the lack of data can be frustrating.  I've had temp/pres gauges on my rigs since the 70s.  I've offered the numbers up up in these discussions and they're largely ignored, so I gave up.  I imagine just about everyone else with something educated to say about it gave up a long time ago.  Now the real debate is which is better -- oil or air popt corn.

[insert that popcorn smarm here]

The warranty peroid will be up on my V7C late this summer, and I'm planning some oil system mods- mainly a remote, external spin on filter and insturmentation for temperature and pressure.  I'll post my findings.

Oil or air popt?  I don't know- my wife won't let me near either one! ;D

PeteT.

[rodekyll]

[Kev m]

I still haven't seen any actual numbers put forth, only opinion and conjecture.

And this is so different from what you've been putting forth?

I'd have to use the search function to go find the cylinder head temps I measured and posted.  Maybe next time I sit down at a PC.

That said has something changed from the service bulletin? You keep talking about a smallblock and the bulletin doesn't say the same thing for smallblocks which suggests a difference in needs no?

[Vasco DG]

I still haven't seen any actual numbers put forth, only opinion and conjecture.  Just out of curiosity, what is the average operating oil temperature of some of the later bikes?  Once we know for sure, it will be a lot easier to make an informed decision.

PeteT.

Ambient temp 30*C. On the open road in 'Cruise mode', ie legal speeds oil temp on my 8V hovers between 115*C and 120*C. Get up it and give it heaps of welly, especially in the lower gears with comensurate slower air movement through the cooler and it'll get up to 130*C.

In traffic in Canberra this arvo with the ambient temperaure in the mid thirties  checked the temp at the traffic lights and the guage was at about 135-140*C indicated.

Measurements taken with one of those dipstick thermometers. Once moving again the temperature rapidly falls back to about 120*C indicated.

Remember that is the oil in the sump. NOT the oil that has just passed through the galleries around the exhaust valve seats and drained back via the frot of the cylinder castings.

IMHO the actual viscosity rating is of LESS importance than the fact you need a full ester oil more able to withstand heat but the higher hot rating can't do anything but help in the prevention of boundary lubrication.

Penrite's top oil has just been changed slightly from being called Sin 10 to 10 Tenths Premium Full Synthetic. Apart from the fct it is now supposed to be safe for wet clutches the claims made are the same. A 20 litre drum costs me a bit over $200AU. No 8V I've ever serviced has failed due to even the possibility of oiling problems. as I said. Put what you want in. I won't be puting yak-fat in any of my or my customers' bikes any time soon.

Pete

[PeteT]

Ambient temp 30*C. On the open road in 'Cruise mode', ie legal speeds oil temp on my 8V hovers between 115*C and 120*C. Get up it and give it heaps of welly, especially in the lower gears with comensurate slower air movement through the cooler and it'll get up to 130*C.

In traffic in Canberra this arvo with the ambient temperaure in the mid thirties  checked the temp at the traffic lights and the guage was at about 135-140*C indicated.

Measurements taken with one of those dipstick thermometers. Once moving again the temperature rapidly falls back to about 120*C indicated.

Remember that is the oil in the sump. NOT the oil that has just passed through the galleries around the exhaust valve seats and drained back via the frot of the cylinder castings.

IMHO the actual viscosity rating is of LESS importance than the fact you need a full ester oil more able to withstand heat but the higher hot rating can't do anything but help in the prevention of boundary lubrication.

Penrite's top oil has just been changed slightly from being called Sin 10 to 10 Tenths Premium Full Synthetic. Apart from the fct it is now supposed to be safe for wet clutches the claims made are the same. A 20 litre drum costs me a bit over $200AU. No 8V I've ever serviced has failed due to even the possibility of oiling problems. as I said. Put what you want in. I won't be puting yak-fat in any of my or my customers' bikes any time soon.

Pete

I agree about the ability of the oil to withstand heat being more important than the viscosity rating.  Some oils just break down into crud if you run them too hot.  Just for reference, in air cooled VWs, I regularly ran 180F- 250F, and sometimes even higher using common Castrol GTX 20w-50.  Oil and filter changes at 2000 miles.  Had a Yamaha TX500A back in the mid 70's.  Dang thing would run 250+F and often hit 300F+ at times.  Had it for 35,000 miles before I sold it.  Squeeky clean inside- excelent compression- no problems noted.  Same Castrol GTX.

PeteT.   

[blakebird]

I love a January oil argument to. 

no kidding....everyone has their mind made up, yet they think they're going to convince others they are right and those that don't agree are wrong.


I've been using Motorex 10W-60 Cross Power full synthetic in my KTM dirtbikes for years, and in a performance motor that uses about a liter of oil, it can't be bad form to use a quality lubricant. I'll use Silkolene or Agip if I can't find Motorex, but in the same viscosity.
My XR628 held twice as much oil, and it got Castrol GTX...so I'm certainly no oil snob.

I have no problem paying a few bucks more for 10W-60 Power Synt for the Guzzi.

[Kev m]

Pete s, on the VWs where were you measuring that 250-300°F?

Remember Pete R is saying that he sees peak sump temps of about 284°F (140°C), which means head temps are likely higher ESPECIALLY when the oil passes through that dedicated exhaust valve passage. Granted that's 8V motors only but still.

Bottom line, the fact that members using quality 20w-50 have reported flickering oil lights on some 2V big blocks under summer conditions is enough to suggest to me that the factory recommendations are NOT ALL MARKETING.

I am sure other brands and viscosities will work much of the time,  but equally sure that the OEM recommended oil will work more often than most so I have no motivation to stray from it.

I've not told anyone what they need to do in this thread, I've only answered the question posed by the op and refuted at least some of your objections with data and logic. Believe and use what you will.

More importantly, you've got a different machine than the op which may be enough to change the demands on the oil enough anyway.

[guznax]

In traffic in Canberra this arvo with the ambient temperaure in the mid thirties  checked the temp at the traffic lights and the guage was at about 135-140*C indicated.
Measurements taken with one of those dipstick thermometers. Once moving again the temperature rapidly falls back to about 120*C indicated.
Remember that is the oil in the sump. NOT the oil that has just passed through the galleries around the exhaust valve seats and drained back via the frot of the cylinder castings.

Someone in Germany measured the temperature of the head cover of a centauro. It was about 20 dgr C higher than the oil-sump temperature.
If the oil temperature in the head would be approximately the same, it would be about 155-160 C.
I would NEVER put other oil in my daytona than 10W60 because of the occasional very high temperatures in the heads.
It's important that the oil has enough viscosity at those high temperatures to maintain pressure for the big-ends among others.
(manuals recommend 20W50 for the old 8 valvers by the way)

[kitze2]

Wow. It is definitely winter.  :D

I've installed/removed and worked on dozens of these over the years...



They cost anywhere from $500K to $700K each...
A major overhaul starts at $100K...
I've been to training at the factory in Friedrichshafen...
Been to maintenance seminars bunches of times...
I've seen a 2500HP V16 throw a rod at full power. The destruction can not be described in words.
I've worked 24 hour shifts to replace large generators on ships at anchorage. Sitting idle for unscheduled  maintenance can cost over $400K a day and up...
In all this, oil grade/rating/viscosity has not once been the subject of discussion.
Why not? You use the manufacturers recommendations and change it at the specified intervals. It's a fait accompli.

But hey...Put whatever goo gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling in your bike. :)


Now the important question really is...Boxers or Briefs  :D ;)

[PeteT]

Pete s, on the VWs where were you measuring that 250-300°F?

Remember Pete R is saying that he sees peak sump temps of about 284°F (140°C), which means head temps are likely higher ESPECIALLY when the oil passes through that dedicated exhaust valve passage. Granted that's 8V motors only but still.

Bottom line, the fact that members using quality 20w-50 have reported flickering oil lights on some 2V big blocks under summer conditions is enough to suggest to me that the factory recommendations are NOT ALL MARKETING.

I am sure other brands and viscosities will work much of the time,  but equally sure that the OEM recommended oil will work more often than most so I have no motivation to stray from it.

I've not told anyone what they need to do in this thread, I've only answered the question posed by the op and refuted at least some of your objections with data and logic. Believe and use what you will.

More importantly, you've got a different machine than the op which may be enough to change the demands on the oil enough anyway.

In the aircraft world, oil temp is generally refered to as "engine in"- the temperature of the oil as it leaves the reservoir and enters the engine proper.  I tend to think in those terms.  On the VWs, it was taken at the oil pump, the first stop after leaving the sump.  I also had a VW Type II for a while that had the sender in the drain plug at the bottom of the sump.  That thing ran hotter than bloody heck, and about the highest I ever saw was about 160F indicated.  Where you take the measurement makes a big difference in what you see.

You're right- there's probably a lot of difference between the Smallblock (which I'm more interested in) and the various Big Blocks (which everybody else is interested in).  The point is:  one should never blindly do something based on what somebody else says.   If one is going to push the envelope a bit, one should approach it with caution and back off at the first sign of problems.  What might work in one application may not work in another.  I don't know, but from what I've heard the running clearances on the big blocks are probably larger and the oil pump lacks the flow to keep the pressure up at low RPMs when the oil is hot.  I don't know about the Small Block either- but I'll probably be finding out after the warranty expires in August.   I'll be generating my own data... using logic.

PeteT.

[Wayne Orwig]

Just plain butter for me thanks.

[Chuck in Indiana]

If one is going to push the envelope a bit, one should approach it with caution and back off at the first sign of problems.

;D ;D

[demills]

Bacon Grease









For the Popcorn, Yummy.

[PeteT]

Wow. It is definitely winter.  :D

I've installed/removed and worked on dozens of these over the years...



They cost anywhere from $500K to $700K each...
A major overhaul starts at $100K...
I've been to training at the factory in Friedrichshafen...
Been to maintenance seminars bunches of times...
I've seen a 2500HP V16 throw a rod at full power. The destruction can not be described in words.
I've worked 24 hour shifts to replace large generators on ships at anchorage. Sitting idle for unscheduled  maintenance can cost over $400K a day and up...
In all this, oil grade/rating/viscosity has not once been the subject of discussion.
Why not? You use the manufacturers recommendations and change it at the specified intervals. It's a fait accompli.

But hey...Put whatever goo gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling in your bike. :)


Now the important question really is...Boxers or Briefs  :D ;)

That's pretty neat.  I've worked on a few diesels over the years- mostly Detroit Diesel -53, -71, and -92 series two strokes, and the occasional Catapillar used on the 60's-70's D7 and D8.  My real Forte' is turbines.  These days mostly the CFM56-3 and -7.  Don't know what they cost now, but replacement cost for a -3 twenty years ago was a little over six million (I know because one of our idiot pilots burned one up).  

The -3 produces 20,000-22,00 pounds of static thrust, and the -7's are limited to 24,000 pounds.  They can make up to 30,000 pounds just by turning a screw... and juggling a few numbers.  I've also done my time with IAE 2500 and 2700's  (25,000-27,000 pound thrust),  Rolls Royce RB211-535's  (42, 000 pounds thrust), Pratt&Whitney JT8D -7, -9, -15, and -17's  (12,000-17,000 pounds thrust)... and even some Pratt&Whitney JT9D's years ago.  Can't recall the thrust rating on those, but I think it was in the neighborhood of 48,000 pounds.  Given the thrust, you can calculate the HP- the standard speed for the calculation is 375 MPH. The modern engines are marvels of engineering- variable guide and stater vanes,  600+ PSI defuser pressures, double spool compressors and turbines (tripple spools on the Rolls)... by the 1990's they could propel a 120,000 pound airplane at Mach .74 while burning only 2 gallons of fuel per mile- and the latest generation (CFM56-7) is a lot more fuel efficient than that.

I've been to the Pratt&Whitney factory training for the JT9D (twenty+ years ago), CFM56 school in Cincinatti, and every once in a while to Dallas for refresher training on the stuff we're flying now.

I can visualize a V16 shedding a rod- but picture an APU shelling itself while turning 68,000 RPM.  It's pretty memorable.

Not sure about now, but in the 1990's lost revenue for an out of service 757 was about $5,000 an hour.

I've done my share of 24+ hour shifts as well.  When an airplane breaks out of town (with no company maintenance on the field), we get sent "downline" to fix it.  I've been sent to more outstations than I care to recall to fix just about everything imaginable- from avionics problems to engine changes.  A "small engine (CFM56-3) weighs about 7,000 pounds.  Generally, once you leave your home base, you're gone 'till it's fixed.. but a few years ago the company decided that after 16 hours you had the option to take 8 hours off or keep working.  

We use MIL-L-23699 spec turbine oil in our engines- usually Exxon 2380 or MobilJet II.  Works great!  I've seen engines go over 30K hours between shop visits.  Wouldn't use it in my bike or car on a bet!  Engineered for a completely different application. (Makes a great gun oil, however).

As for the "boxers or briefs" question- definately Boxers.  I've had Beemers in the past, and I have a Ural that I wouldn't part with ;D.

And this concludes the "Mine's bigger than yours" portion of our broadcast. ::)

PeteT.  

[PeteT]

;D ;D

   Looks like someone wasn't listening to what the engine was trying to tell them, and it had to do something more obvious to get that person's attention.

PeteT.

[Chuck in Indiana]

He said he was just coasting down hill at about 35 mph, and it just suddenly stopped.  ;D