Author Topic: Those crappy Grisos!  (Read 21833 times)

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2014, 05:03:49 PM »
Ok, I think we've learnt something here.

Sorry Martin. Look after yourself.

Pete


Sorry, I failed 'Macho Posturing' at school.  ;D

Apologies accepted, Merchant banking more up your alley ?

Offline Ad B

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2014, 02:31:01 AM »
Hi Pete,
....
I bought my own kit, it wasn't cheap, so far I haven't felt the need to install it, my bike is running so superbly at the moment I can't see any reason to pull it to bits.

If your bike doesn't have a FSH it might be worth considering replacing them on spec simply because of the damage that may be caused by the disintegrating tappets.

Pete
I too want to change my G12 to roller tappets.
It's what you wrote, my engine is still clean on the inside.
What will happen to the rest of the engine if my tappets are going to fail?
I want to do this rebuild this coming winter in Europe.
My G12 has no official history at Moto Guzzi, so I have to pay it myself.
But I can chose to rebuild it before something bad happens.
Which kit did you buy?
My G12 2009 probably needs kit C, but it costs 1350 (almost Aus $ 2000)
What if I buy kit B, 702, (Aus $ 1030). Together with the extra parts from kit C?
Such head gaskets, inlet and outlet gaskets, sims for under the valve springs and other small parts.
It's a lot cheaper.
Or isn't that possible, for some reason?

Ad B
I love my... wife and Griso. Cat is in his heaven after 19 years...

Vasco DG

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2014, 02:45:48 AM »
Perfectly possible. The reason for the extra expense is almost certainly that the 'C' kit includes three sets of head gaskets as well as the shims and knick-knacks like guide seals.

The gasket choices are important as not only will getting the squish correct combat detonation and reduce oxides of nitrogen but they also have a bearing on cam chain tension and therefore life.

You can pull the heads though and measure the gaskets, you don't need the DTI holder, then simply buy the ones you need. As long as you aren't replacing barrels? No issue.

Pete

Offline Phang

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2014, 07:31:45 AM »
Pete, there are three thickness for the head gasket in 0.2mm increment from 0.65mm

0.65mm
0.85mm
1.05mm

Will the old gasket get compressed and gives measurements in between the three thickness i.e. 0.75mm, 0.95mm?

I was hoping there is some marking/indication on the gasket itself for easier identification.
2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2014, 07:31:45 AM »

Vasco DG

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2014, 10:40:53 AM »
Being laminated steel they don't really compress in any meaningful way. You can micrometer them up and pick which you need. They have a coating on them but it's very thin, if push came to shove you could probably spray them with copper based gasket sealant and re-use them but why would you?

Pete
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 04:05:59 PM by Vasco DG »

Offline Phang

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2014, 10:49:38 AM »
Being laminated steel they don't really compress in any meaningful way. You can micrometer them up and pick which you need. They have a coating on them but it's very thin, if push came to shove you could probably at them with copper based gasket sealant and re-use them but why would you?

Pete

Learnt a new English sentence today - "if push came to shove"  ;D
2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

Vasco DG

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2014, 11:07:42 AM »
You're welcome. What on earth are you doing sitting in front of a computer at this time in the morning? Don't tell me you're a chronic insomniac too!  ???

Pete

Offline Phang

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2014, 11:25:52 AM »
The last good sleep I had was probably in 2005.

I am reading the squish setting in Guzzi manual, interesting piece of gadget the Italian had designed.

2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

Offline lucky phil

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2014, 08:42:13 PM »
The last good sleep I had was probably in 2005.

I am reading the squish setting in Guzzi manual, interesting piece of gadget the Italian had designed.


Its just a dial indicator and mount plate...nothing special
Ciao
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Vasco DG

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2014, 04:09:05 PM »
Pete, there are three thickness for the head gasket in 0.2mm increment from 0.65mm

0.65mm
0.85mm
1.05mm

Will the old gasket get compressed and gives measurements in between the three thickness i.e. 0.75mm, 0.95mm?

I was hoping there is some marking/indication on the gasket itself for easier identification.

Oh, Phang, the gaskets may have a paint mark on the edge. White for thin ones, yellow for middle ones and none I could see on the thick ones.

Pete

Offline Phang

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2014, 10:56:09 PM »
I just found this photo

It is a 0.85mm (part# 874622) medium thickness head gasket.

A stroke of yellow paint confirms that  ;-T

2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

Offline lucky phil

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2014, 03:28:29 PM »
I just found this photo

It is a 0.85mm (part# 874622) medium thickness head gasket.

A stroke of yellow paint confirms that  ;-T


No, a pair of verniers confirms that. These are parts from Italy remember:)
Ciao
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Offline Phang

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2014, 11:08:52 PM »
No, a pair of verniers confirms that. These are parts from Italy remember:)
Ciao

You are damn right, I have encountered many errors i.e. engine oil fill volume, spark plug torque, colour codes in the wiring diagram etc.

Stay skeptical is the word of the day  ;D
2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

Offline Ad B

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2014, 11:48:44 AM »
Hi Pete and Phang,

thanks for all your info.
The more I read, the more I'm getting to know about our Griso's.

Pete, here's a part of a quote.
....
The gasket choices are important as not only will getting the squish correct combat detonation and reduce oxides of nitrogen but they also have a bearing on cam chain tension and therefore life.
...
Pete
What did you mean with the part "but they also have a bearing on cam chain tension "??
Something else...
If I can't find a color mark on the used head gasket and I measure its thickness, I can order the head gaskets with the right thickness
A bit less as 1.05 but no 0.85 I have to order 1.05 gaskets... between 0.85 and 0.65 --> 0,85  gasket; less as 0.65 -->0.65 gasket

I'm thinking to order kit B together with the extra parts, which are extra on kit C.
I don't know how long I have to wait for delevery.
And I want to make the change to roller tappets this winter, which is starting around now till +/- march.

Ad B
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 11:49:20 AM by Ad B »
I love my... wife and Griso. Cat is in his heaven after 19 years...

Vasco DG

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2014, 12:27:19 PM »
Think about it. If the distance between the axis of the idler shaft and the camshaft is greater the chain will be tighter. If it is smaller the chain will be looser. The thicker the gasket the tighter the chain. Is this important in an real terms? Hard to tell but if you think about how small adjustments to a final drive chain make a huge difference to its overall tension when you are talking about a much smaller chain run the difference in distance will have a proportionally greater effect.

Pete

Offline Ad B

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2014, 08:08:15 AM »
Hi,

here's my Christmas present, I bought myself:

The content is to preserve my G12...

camshaft with rollertappets.
I had my set within a week from ordering.
My G12 is in allmost more than excellent condition...
It has to stay that way.
I have to pay this modification myself, so I can chose to do this as a precaution.
While my engine is in new condition and very clean.
I bought Kit B (in Holland 702,- , ~$575 US).
According to Moto Guzzi I have to use Kit C (1355,- , ~$1110,- US).
I have to buy other parts like headgaskets, gaskets inlet-outlet, shims for under the valvesprings and a few other parts.
Thats for +/- 150,-.
I'm going to install this modification coming winter, so next spring my G12 will be ready for the next ?? thausends of km's.
I have to sort out which mapping I'm going to use, a visit to a power bench is on my list.

Ad B
I love my... wife and Griso. Cat is in his heaven after 19 years...

Offline Phang

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2014, 08:43:15 AM »
Well done Ad B  ;-T

I think, for early A5 engine Griso like yours and mine, we also need a pair of new rocker covers which the spark plug tube is sealed differently.

new type part# 880124


old type part#872607
2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

Vasco DG

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2014, 10:05:23 AM »
Phang, they got around that by machining the top of the casting on the plug tube of the cambox. You use the original cover and retain the early 'Long' plug tube.

As well as the head gaskets and the shims for the inlet valves you'll also need valve guide oil seals for the guides you need to put the shims over. It's wise to get new o-rings for the breather plates too.

Be careful of the oil dowels, both the ones between the barrel and the head and the ones between the head and the cambox. You won't know which head gaskets you'll need until you have the heads off, I have 'em all in stock so if you want I can send you a set and you can just send 'em back with replacements for the ones you use if you don't want to have the bike off the road longer than you have to.

Pete

Offline Phang

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2014, 10:32:04 AM »
thanks Pete, that explained the price difference of Kit-C and also the two chewed up areas around the sealing surface  :bow

2009 Griso 8V SE Tenni (Green)
2000 V11 Sport (Green)
1973 V7 Sport (Green)

Vasco DG

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2014, 10:53:19 AM »
It's a pain in the arse but the 'B' kit plus the other bits you need will work out cheaper than a 'C' kit because you won't be paying for the extra gaskets.

What is splendidly annoying for me at the moment is that there are no 'C' kits in the country and they aren't expected to get here until February 15th. I was able to get the 1200 Sport I had here up and running again by using my 'C' kit that I had purchased but hadn't yet installed on my old rattler on it but that means that if mine decides to go tits I'll be up shit creek until February instead. I don't forsee mine going bad but you never know. They do have at least one 'B' kit in stock but no valve shims! I've got everything else I need to do a swap apart from the blessed shims and I forgot to measure them when I stuck them in the Sport so I don't know what to grind up as a substitute.

If Ad B has them for his old nail perhaps he could measure it and give me the dimensions?

Pete

Offline Ad B

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2014, 12:37:09 PM »
Hi Pete,

I'm on a holliday trip to Berlin for the next 10 days...
When I'm back home, I Will order these party as quickly as possible.
I shall give you the answers quickly after.

Ad B
I love my... wife and Griso. Cat is in his heaven after 19 years...

Vasco DG

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2014, 04:43:43 PM »
Thanks Mate. I have a feeling that I'll probably have something very close to ideal in my selector drum shim box ;D

Pete

Offline Ad B

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2015, 04:43:45 AM »
Hi Pete,
Yesterday I've ordered 2 inlet- and outletgaskets, 4 valve guide seals and 4 valve spring shims.
This morning, I received them.
I've measered the shims: 25,5 mm x 10,3 mm x 0,4 mm
I've ordered them at TLM in Holland, part nr GU877847
He still has 8 on stock...
http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/nl/shim-877847-moto-guzzi

Ad B
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 04:44:42 AM by Ad B »
I love my... wife and Griso. Cat is in his heaven after 19 years...

Vasco DG

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2015, 04:50:05 AM »
Hi Pete,
Yesterday I've ordered 2 inlet- and outletgaskets, 4 valve guide seals and 4 valve spring shims.
This morning, I received them.
I've measered the shims: 25,5 mm x 10,3 mm x 0,4 mm
I've ordered them at TLM in Holland, part nr GU877847
He still has 8 on stock...
http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/nl/shim-877847-moto-guzzi

Ad B

Bonza! Thanks.

Pete

Online JJ

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2015, 08:35:53 AM »
Hi Pete from Arizona. 8)

Do you think the build quality of the 2015 Griso 1200 8V has improved over what you have seen and experienced  previously?  In today's modern times, and with all the new improved components and quality control metrics that should be in place at the Mandello factory, why are these Griso's having such issues as you have described?

Last question:  In your experience, which years and model Guzzi motor, in terms of overall reliability, do you think is the best as a daily driver and for sport touring?  Thanks in advance.

JJC
Life Member: MGNOC L-772, AMA, HOG
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'14 Victory Vision Tour
Village of Oak Creek, AZ

Offline Ad B

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2015, 12:36:49 PM »


oooh dear....
I love my... wife and Griso. Cat is in his heaven after 19 years...

Vasco DG

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2015, 01:51:52 PM »
What do you think was wrong with the build quality of the earlier bikes? Apart from the roller top end and a different sump they are essentially the same machine.

Pete

Online bad Chad

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2015, 01:58:50 PM »
JJ got to be fishing, right? 

Build quality has been very good for years now.
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Penderic

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2015, 06:50:16 PM »

 :pop


Vasco DG

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Re: Those crappy Grisos!
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2015, 11:29:55 PM »
Max power won't of changed but as it stands now my bike is running a Mistral Hi-Pipe, with dB killer and it is seriously silly from nothing to rev limiter.

Can you remember what I was running when I did that run or was it somebody else's bike? I can't remember?

All of my runs have been done at about 800 metres elevation on hot, dry days with temperatures in the high twenties to low thirties centigrade and very low humidity. Run the same bike in cooler, damper conditions at sea level and you'd find peak power up by probably two to four HP at the rear wheel but to be honest that is an irrelevance, nobody travels anywhere at WFO in top gear and the torque tables in the map will alter performance in each gear.

Pete
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 11:50:57 PM by Vasco DG »

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