Author Topic: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies - The Conclusion  (Read 15173 times)

Bill Havins

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Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies - The Conclusion
« on: December 06, 2014, 11:25:15 PM »
 I'm a bit "fastidious" about some things.  And other things?  Meh!  I could care less about water spots.  But I want my Guzzi to run well.  I don't want a high performance bike.  I just want it to run well.

This '98 EV I have been, er, "restoring," is my first fuel-injected bike.  I am very comfortable with carbs and distributors, but it has taken me a while to really wrap my head around this fuel injection thing.

I have been puzzled for many months that I can't get this engine to perform consistently at idle and just above.  One day I think I have it.  The next day...heavy sigh.  Then on our trip to New Mexico a few weeks ago I thought the TPS was acting up.  Then the symptom cleared a couple of days later, only to return as we neared home on the last day of the trip.  When I pulled the TPS off in the garage there was fuel in it.

I have begun to consider that some of the performance issues with my Guzzi are the seals on the throttle bodies, combined with "tired" injectors.  I bought a set of throttle bodies from Pinwall Cycles and am using them as my "guinea pigs."  I posted last week that the seals in these throttle bodies were obviously bad (the donor bike had 19K on it).  The "rubber" seals used in these throttle bodies just don't hold up to "oxygenated" fuels.  So I ordered replacement seals at a cost of $11+ each.  The ones I ordered are made with Viton "wipers."  I should have the seals early next week.  I'll post photos of their installation.

Regarding injectors, I decided to send the "donor" injectors to a Houston-based injector reconditioning shop.  Before I mailed them I checked their electrics to ensure they were still patent (they measured 17.2 ohms resistance).  Today I received the reconditioned injectors in the mail.  The shop that did the work included the report you see below.  Before their cleaning, I wonder if these injectors would have caused symptoms similar to what has been frustrating me.



I won't "firm up" my opinion until I install the reconditioned injectors and rebuild the throttle bodies on my Guzzi.  But I am beginning to lean toward an opinion that we need to pay more attention to throttle body seals and the condition of injectors as our Guzzis age.  Heck, if my EV had carbs on it I would have rebuilt them at least four times by now (assuming I bought the bike in 1998).  And I would change the points at least every two years, adjusting them each time I set the valves.

When I swap the reconditioned injectors with the injectors on my EV I will send my originals in for reconditioning.  It will be interesting to see how that report reads.

Make sense?

Bill
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 03:07:23 PM by Bill Havins »

Bill Hagan

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2014, 07:06:58 AM »
I'm a bit "fastidious" about some things.  And other things?  Meh!  I could care less about water spots.  But I want my Guzzi to run well.  I don't want a high performance bike.  I just want it to run well.

****

When I swap the reconditioned injectors with the injectors on my EV I will send my originals in for reconditioning.  It will be interesting to see how that report reads.

Make sense?

Bill


Well, as for "make sense," dunno.  I am likely to be way more successful with water spots than with throttle bodies and injectors  ::), but I am interested in the results.

Have the EV on the lift awaiting various tasks, and will consider adding that to the list.  That said, am reluctant to mess with "success," as when I rode it last week, it was flawless ... or mebbe I am just getting used to flaws!

Seriously, it idles at 11, and doesn't stumble whatever on out to 7+.  Did not get to rev limiter, but nary a complaint.  Yes, it has some flat spots along the way, but nothing new, I think.

Still, that R&R sounds as if it's in my limited skill set and would be useful PM, so I'm game, especially as it also sounds inexpensive.   ;)

Thanks for the report; please do update on completion ... or snags.

Bill


Online Wayne Orwig

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2014, 08:49:23 AM »
Still, that R&R sounds as if it's in my limited skill set and would be useful PM, so I'm game, especially as it also sounds inexpensive.   ;)


Yes Bill, you need to fix it until it is broken.  ;-T



 :D
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 08:52:56 AM by Wayne Orwig »
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Offline Dean Rose

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2014, 08:59:48 AM »

Yes Bill, you need to fix it until it is broken.  ;-T

 :D



 ;-T


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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2014, 08:59:48 AM »

Offline M0T0Geezer

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2014, 10:07:48 AM »
Rough idle and occasional stumbling can be caused by "non-compliant" (i.e., dirty) injectors that fail to accurately follow instructions from the ECU.

The ECU says "Open to X" but the injector does something a little different, "Opening to X minus delta" because it is dirty.

The tiny valve body ("pintle") can become stiff from contaminant deposits. Each injector also has a tiny fuel filter which can become partially clogged with impurities.

I find a dose of Techron fuel injector cleaner always makes my 2004 Breva 750 (30,000 miles) run smoother.

I suggest everyone try that before spending time and $$ on new or rebuilt injectors.
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Offline LowRyter

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2014, 01:27:17 PM »
just for grins, have you played the fuel enriching knob on the ecu.  Could be that it's set for the wrong altitude?  Although, the gas issue sounds pretyy serious. 

And that reminds me, I thought I might play with the knob to perhaps mitigate my suspected TPS issue.   
John L 
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Bill Havins

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2014, 01:57:32 PM »

...have you played the fuel enriching knob on the ecu...
  

Oh, yeah.  I even put my oscilloscope on the fuel injector leads to watch how the pulse changed as I turned the potentiometer.

I think MOTOGeezer has a point, running a little fuel injector cleaner through the tank from time-to-time might help.  But that assumes your fuel injectors were good to start with and have only "cleanable" issues going on with them.  I'm not sure what condition mine are in.

I have arrived at a point in my "piddling" where I am convinced I had to try to get back to a baseline of some sort.  So, in the next few weeks I'm going to have restored fuel system components and then go from there.

Vasco DG

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2014, 03:06:57 PM »
Note that Guzzi are now recommending that TB's be removed and cleaned every 10,000km!

While this is complete overkill the fact remains that especially if owners are analabout keeping their oil at the 'Full' mark on the stick a fair bit gets blown out and ends up fouling the TB's. This is true for all models although some are worse than others, most likely because of the way they are ridden. Bellagios which beg to be flogged mercilessly are particularly bad for it! ;D

When I removed mine for a thorough cleaning about 15,000Km ago they were pretty grubby. Since it isn't really a hard job to pull them on a Griso I'll probably do them every 25,000 or so or if I think they need it.

Pete

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2014, 03:13:25 PM »
just for grins, have you played the fuel enriching knob on the ecu.  Could be that it's set for the wrong altitude?  Although, the gas issue sounds pretyy serious. 

And that reminds me, I thought I might play with the knob to perhaps mitigate my suspected TPS issue.   
Very good point! don't turn it more than about a 1/4 turn at a time then ride 10 minutes to know if it made a difference.
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Offline 1Sourdough

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2014, 09:51:43 PM »
Just before I stopped riding for the cold weather a couple of weeks ago I noticed a gas smell and found the '99 EV's TB bottoms damp with gas.    Your comments came at a good time.  It had recently begun expressing displeasure with cool temps, also.  If run hard enough to get the engine very well warmed up, all was sweetness & light until we got back into town.  Then it would turn surly again.  I had just replaced the fuel filter, and was thinking something I had done there was causing the poor running.  Looking forward to the next installment!
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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2014, 03:28:25 PM »
excellent, Bill!  I will also be checking back here in regards to the TB "seals". I bet my 03 Aluminum with 25K miles on it needs them looked at . as far as adjusting for altitude with a screw on the ecu....does my 03( built in 02) with the ECU behind the left side cover, have that adjustment screw? Ive never heard of it before. Or is it only on the earlier ECUs that reside under the seat....
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                 :pop
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Offline rodekyll

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2014, 03:52:35 PM »
Your '03 does not have the trim knob. 

Offline Bill N

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2014, 04:44:28 PM »
Timely post for me. My 98 EV stumbles at idle so I have to pulse it like a Harley when stopped. Also when I clutch in, with throttle rolled off while coming to a stop, it sometimes dies and does a burp (backfire). I've been thinking of injector additives and will try that first. Will monitor this thread to see other's results.
Bill  :pop

Bill Havins

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2014, 05:12:42 PM »

My Viton seals arrived via UPS this morning.  My EV is sitting in the garage, up on blocks.  Yesterday I pulled the front end off to grease the steering head bearings, clean-lube-and-Doxit the ignition switch, and surface-and-Doxit the starter switch contacts.  It looks like a turkey carcass at 11:30pm on Christmas Day - eviscerated!

I now have the throttle bodies off and have begun to clean them.  I'll get the injectors off to Houston tomorrow and then I'll see if anything was happening with them.  I also hope to get the Viton seals in the throttle bodies, if they'll fit (oh please, oh please, oh please...I promise I'll be good until the end of the year...).

More later.

Bill

Offline balvenie

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2014, 07:39:50 PM »
ONYA Bill ;D ;-T
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Bill Havins

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2014, 08:22:30 PM »

Seals don't fit...  :P  Oversized by at  least .25mm.  I guess now I don't have to be good till the end of the year.  ;D

Back to the internet... 


Offline balvenie

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2014, 09:01:57 PM »
           Better luck next time and thanks too; your "research?" is very interesting to me.
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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2014, 10:54:30 PM »
Timely post for me. My 98 EV stumbles at idle so I have to pulse it like a Harley when stopped. Also when I clutch in, with throttle rolled off while coming to a stop, it sometimes dies and does a burp (backfire). I've been thinking of injector additives and will try that first. Will monitor this thread to see other's results.
Bill  :pop
Have the throttle bodies been synced and the TPS set lately?

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Bill Havins

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2014, 10:12:23 AM »
I just got off the telephone with a fellow at a company that makes seals.  I described the seals on the Magneti-Marelli Weber throttle bodies, and noted they do not have any metal in them; they are a simple U-cup "rod seal."  He was quick to say that "rod seals" are designed to seal rods that move in and out, not rods that rotate.  He said the seals I described are certain to fail because, as the rod turns, it causes the seal to want to rotate with it.  This eventually causes the seal to wear on its outside diameter and it then stops sealing.  He indicated we need "oil-type seals" that are press-fit into the bore around the pivot shaft.  That will keep the seals from rotating and, if made from the correct compound (e.g., Viton or similar) will allow them to seal much longer, if not indefinitely.

Heavy sigh...  :-\

I wonder if the more important issue is, without a metal ring embedded in the outside diameter, the present seals are able to pull away from the diameter of the bore as they soften/shrink (or whatever they do) with exposure to oxygenated fuel.

Dawg!  I dunno'.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 07:59:18 AM by Bill Havins »

Bill Havins

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2014, 03:22:51 PM »

The more I dig into this the deeper the hole gets...  Brilliant!

Early this afternoon I removed the butterfly from one of my donor throttle bodies.  This required grinding away the "peened" ends of the screws so they could be removed from the throttle shaft.  With the butterfly removed the shaft could be pulled from the throttle body.  I was then able to accurately measure the bores where the seals fit into the throttle body.

The bores for the seals are 11.5mm in diameter.  Dawg!  Nobody has an 11.5mm  O.D. seal that I have seen.

This vendor shows seals they had custom made for Ducati throttle bodies: http://ca-cycleworks.com/t-seal .  I sent them an email last night asking for the specifications on the seals.  I called them a few minutes ago and was told "the tech guy has been in and out all day."  The woman on the phone said they would send me an email when he gets back.

I am considering calling the seal manufacturer back and asking them to do a short production run of seals to my specification.  The minimum order for such is $300, and the end result is "15 to 20" seals.  Despite the cost I may do it.

I sent my original injectors in to InjectorRX just after noon.  In a week I should have them back with a report of their status before and after cleaning.  Data are good when troubleshooting.

More later.

Offline Bill N

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2014, 03:25:09 PM »
Have the throttle bodies been synced and the TPS set lately?


TPS yes, Throttle bodies no. Wish I knew someone who could do that for me.
Thanks, Bill

Bill Havins

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2014, 05:47:45 PM »

I got an email back from "Chris," the "tech guy" at California Cycleworks in San Diego.  Here are the measurements he gave for their Viton seals: "Our seals are 7.77 x 11.56 x 2.54."

As above, the bores the seals fit in measure 11.5mm exactly.  The butterfly shafts measure 7.95mm.  The quoted height of 2.54mm should be fine.  So it would appear that California Cycleworks is a source for appropriate seals.  I have four on the way and will install them as soon as they arrive (via Priority Mail).

Things are looking better.

Bill





Rumba

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2014, 06:31:32 PM »
Chris Kelley runs California Cycle works for +10 years.
A shop with a very good reputation.


Offline mwrenn

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2014, 10:21:34 PM »
Fascinating post. It will be very interesting to hear about the end result of your work!

Offline LowRyter

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2014, 02:19:29 PM »
I hope "all this wrong seal on Weber stuff" (my quotes), doesn't mean we are ALL doomed!
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Bill Havins

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2014, 02:54:24 PM »

The Buna (or whatever rubber) seals on my throttle bodies were very easy to remove by probing on the outside diameter with an eyeglasses screwdriver.  They lifted up and out easily, both on my original EV throttle bodies and the "donor" throttle bodies.  I'll let a seals expert decide if the seals are "right," "wrong," or "fair-to-middling."  I dunno'.  In my case I don't think they were doing much, witness the fuel in my TPS.

Let's see if the California Cycleworks seals do the job.  I sure hope so.

Bill




Bill Havins

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2014, 03:22:31 PM »
My original injectors just returned from Houston.  There wasn't anything "startling" in the report, very similar to what I posted, above.  Here's a quick summary:

Both injectors were in good shape electrically.  Both showed a "fair" spray pattern; neither demonstrated leaks.

The left injector (the one that sits on top of the TPS) showed a static flow of 282 cc/min. before cleaning - 288 after cleaning.  The right injector had a static flow of 284 before cleaning and 288 after.  Both demonstrated Good spray patterns after cleaning.

Cleaning produced a 2.13% change in the flow of the left injector and a 1.41% change in the right injector.

On another issue, I received the seals I ordered from California Cycleworks.  They look very similar to the seals that were in the throttle bodies; they are simple u-cups, just like the originals, but made of Viton.  They fit very snugly and will likely provide a good seal for some time.

I decided to replace the seal in the bottom of the right throttle body.  This required some delicate surgery to remove the "press fit" aluminum plug from the bottom bore.  The bottom of the throttle body shaft is very, very close to the inside surface of the plug.  I will machine a new plug and press fit it in the bottom of the bore.

It will be several days before I reassemble the intake side of the engine to test everything I have done.  I am in the midst of periodic maintenance on my EV so it looks like it ran over a land mine (parts are strewn all over the garage).  I will post results when I have my scooter running again.

Cheers!

Bill
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 08:56:39 PM by Bill Havins »

Offline rodekyll

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2014, 03:39:55 PM »
Good data on he injector cleaning.   ;-T

Bill Havins

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2014, 04:28:39 PM »

Thanks, RK.  I don't think we give injectors (and seals) much thought as we try to tune our Guzzis.  What I've posted above is akin to having different sized sets of jets in the left and right carburetors.  That doesn't work very well.

And as far as the seals go.  I wonder (don't know for sure, yet) if that's like having cracks in the intake manifold boots.  That doesn't work too well either.


wildduck

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Re: Attention To Injectors & Throttle Bodies
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2014, 05:54:37 PM »
Bill;

Good work so far, and good thinking about the seals. It seems like a critical point to introduce air right there, or more accurately NOT to introduce air there. What's the point of all the computer power, accurate injectors and the sensors to make it work if you have a big hole there, or even a little one. Maybe I'm missing something but I think you are on the right path,

Do the injector guys charge as if we have limited-production exotic  Eye-talian machinery?

Best,

John



« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 05:55:22 PM by wildduck »

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