Author Topic: Stelvio 4V Final Drive  (Read 10106 times)

Wacholek

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Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« on: January 23, 2015, 06:08:02 PM »
Hallo everyone!!!
A the first i would like to apologize for may bad English. Please forgive me.

I've recently bough a second hand Stelvio with a 13000 mils on the clock.
I thought that i was a real deal. But now I'm not so sure.
I have few question about the final drive and transmission behavior. 
1. On the cold engine when I'm riding on the one of the lower gears and suddenly open or close the throttle, a quite loud bang can be heard from the Gerbox or Final Dirve. It is much quieter when engine and FD is hot, like after a 20 mils ride. Is it normal?
2. I put my MG on the central stand with the engine turn off. Than engage the first gear and try to rotate the real wheel back and forth i have a free play of about an inch and a quarter.(35mm). Is it normal that big free play?
3. I haven't disassemble the FD yet, but i remove the dust guard between the gearbox and the FD. I've noticed that part of the U-joint which is pushed on the gearbox shaft has a vertical/horizontal free play (u-joint groved part). It's bouncing up and down for less than 15mils. It is not a big free play but I don't know is it ok.
4. Do bevel gear can have any free play (between the wheels)?

I also have a BMW F650CS and I know a lot about that bike, but MG and shaft drive is something new for me.
Thats for now. If you would need some photos i can provide those.





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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2015, 06:29:01 PM »
I'd say your "bad" English is pretty good.. at least compared to how it's spoken around here in the hood..
MINNEAPOLIS, MN

Vasco DG

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2015, 07:39:49 PM »
Firstly I don't think you have anything to be seriously concerned about so relax.

The free play in the wheel isn't in fact in the wheel. It is in the gearbox between the engagement dogs on the pinions. You'll find that there is backlash like this in every gear, it is perfectly normal.

As for the 'Clunk' when engaging a gear or rolling on and off the throttle? This too will be related to the backlash in the engagement dogs but it can be reduced and mitigated in various ways.

1.) Remove as much free play as possible from the throttle cables without the engine speed changing when you move the handlebars lock to lock, (Side to side.) While this may not sound relevant, believe me. It will make a difference.

2.) Make sure your throttle bodies are balanced correctly and your TPS is re-set along with the self learning parameters in the ECU so that the bike can trim its fuel correctly from a known baseline.

3.) The only driveline shock absorber in the entire drivetrain is the bonded rubber coupling in the driveshaft. This is not a particularly subtle or forgiving set up so ride sympathetically.

4.) The stock mapping is less than brilliant. There are a variety of fixes for this, some of which are expensive and some of which are downright dangerous to the running and reliability of your engine so before you embark down this route I suggest you research thoroughly. There is a very good thread on the Guzzidiag system on this board and many people are having great success with it for minimal financial outlay and there is lots of help available if you ask.

If you have any more questions? Ask away!

Pete

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2015, 08:04:27 PM »
What Pete said, use Guzzidiag and get it fueling good on the low end and your clunk will be a thing of the past, same with sorting the throttle cables.  Your free rotation is actually less than I have experienced, sounds like a good tune and you are good to go

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2015, 08:04:27 PM »

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2015, 08:09:42 PM »
Sorry, but I'm not exactly clear on what you are saying is happening. I believe what you are stating, is normal. As Vasco mentions, making sure the throttle cables don't have excess slack, and balancing the throttle bodies, may help a lot.


3.) The only driveline shock absorber in the entire drivetrain is the bonded rubber coupling in the driveshaft. This is not a particularly subtle or forgiving set up so ride sympathetically.

I think there a springs in the clutch plate itself too, but I suspect they don't do a lot under lighter impacts.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Vasco DG

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2015, 09:47:44 PM »
Yeah, they're more anti chatter springs for when the clutch is taking up I'd say but what I was implying is that the 8V-1200 gearbox doesn't have the face cam shock absorber on the input shaft like the boxes fitted to the two valve per cylinder engined bikes do.

Pete

Offline leafman60

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2015, 03:01:47 AM »
"...a quite loud bang can be heard from the Gerbox or Final Drive..."

Despite all that has been said in reply, this statement from the OP is noteworthy. The normal backlash inherent to the CARC drive train is not such that I would characterize it as creating any sort of "loud bang" during its normal lash even when the cables etc are not perfectly set.

Of course, one person's loud bang is another person's normal mechanical noise.

If you are anywhere in reasonable proximity to someone knowledgeable or at least familiar with these bikes, taking it by and letting them hear your "loud bang" may be a good idea.  Someone with Guzzi experience who can actually listen to your bike can better judge whether you have a problem or not.

Having owned and ridden many shaft-driven motorcycles of all brands, I would not describe the CARC Guzzi bikes as relatively prone to excessive driveline lash or loud bangs.

Vasco DG

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2015, 03:48:01 AM »
OK David. Let's go deeper. What do you think would cause a 'Loud Bang'?

As an early bike it might be related to the torque rod bushing which was *Upgraded* at some point. Problem is I've never seen a properly tuned CARC bike that made what I would consider an unacceptable noise when power is being engaged. This makes me tend to think that using a softer damping medium May of been a desperate attempt to mitigate the issue of bikes being serviced and tuned by shaved apes who haven't got a clue.

There is NOTHING between crank and rear wheel that should 'Bang' if the bike is correctly set up. Any issues related to a spur gear transmission, a cardan shaft or a spiral bevel rear drive will produce vibration and excessive noise but no 'Bangs' I can think of.

If you have some form of Great Insight into this? Please, illuminate us! Otherwise how about not making a new owner worried about something that is almost certainly a minor tuning issue! You have history on this and I can't understand why you bother with the marque as you seem to be so convinced that they are inexplicably failure prone shitboxes! God's teeth man! Get a grip!

Pete

Offline leafman60

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2015, 07:18:51 AM »
To the OP-

Again, "Having owned and ridden many shaft-driven motorcycles of all brands, I would not describe the CARC Guzzi bikes as relatively prone to excessive driveline lash or loud bangs."

Nobody, no matter how inflated their ego or how bellicose and their countenance, can dismiss your observation by only an internet exchange.

Maybe you hear something that's a problem and maybe you hear normal noises caused by adjustable issues. I've ridden a lot of miles on a Guzzi CARC and snatched it to and fro along dirt roads etc and I have never heard what I would term "loud bangs" coming from the drive train.

Such a noise could be emanating from any number of unexpected places other than the drive train as you suspect. Loose motor mounts, steering head etc etc could be the culprit. I just happened to find most of the upper motor mount bolts completely vibrated out of my Stelvio a while back (pictures posted here).

If I could see and hear your particular bike, I could offer an informed opinion as to the noise that you are describing- as could many others on this site. My suggestion is to take it by someone familiar with these bikes and let them offer an informed opinion, not just a myopic and dismissive flip-off from someone who has not examined what you are talking about.

Otherwise, you can completely ignore your own concerns, make sure everything is adjusted properly, and ride the thing until kingdom come or until something breaks.

.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 07:40:32 AM by leafman60 »

Bill Havins

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2015, 07:40:41 AM »

Idioms don't translate easily.  Wacholek implied he was concerned that he was not going to be able to describe his bike's symptoms well.

"Loud bang" may be a term that is close to, but not quite accurate for Wacholek's concern.  Many native English speakers will interpret the term as an indication of a significant problem; heck, when I first read it I was thinking, "Backfire?"  And as we are all aware, Guzzis come equipped with "clunks" of varying degrees.  Some models' "clunks" are louder than others.

Wacholek, can you describe the sound using other words?  Look up the definition of the words "clunk," "clatter," and "knock."  Do any of these seem more like the noise you are hearing?  The word "bang" is generally used to describe the sound of a gun, or similar noises.

Good luck!

Bill

Wacholek

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2015, 10:23:37 AM »
Thank You guys for all your comments.
To be even more precise I've made a video to show You what I was talking about.

http://youtu.be/mVqg2Ug75kE

I'm not a novice in the mechanics stuff.
For me "loud band coming from the FD/Gearbox" it is coming from those regions. Not a backfiring or from upper motor mount bolts.
It sound like the clicking on the first part of the video but much louder.
It happens when You change from engine breaking to full/partial load and from full/partial load to engine breaking.
Remember that this bang gets less noticeable after a 10-20 miles when engine and FD riches it's operating temperature. 

I will disassemble FD next weekend just in case.
Chris
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 02:12:08 PM by Wacholek »

Vasco DG

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2015, 02:45:06 PM »
Right, Chris. Firstly the backlash in the wheel is perfectly normal. As I explained it is between the engagement dogs in the gearbox.

As for the movement in the front yoke of the driveshaft? Is there any debris inside the boot? If not you are probably fine. If there is debris then you have a problem.

As it is removing the Swingarm is a very good idea anyway as the swingarm bearings are rarely greased well from the factory so it's worth re-packing them along with the suspension linkage bearings. Be careful with these though as the needle rollers are crowded not caged and will fall out when you push the inner races out if you are not super-careful.

Once the swingarm is off you'll be able to have a good look at the front coupling on thevdriveshaft. The yoke is retained on the gearbox output shaft by an internal circlip and requires a shock from a carefully weilded dead blow hammer to remove but simply inspecting it in-situ should enable you to judge its condition.

Note that the final drive box has to be separated from the swingarm to enable it to be reinstalled and it is much easier to do this as part of the disassembley rather than taking it off with the swingarm.

Pete

Wacholek

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2015, 05:04:20 PM »

As for the movement in the front yoke of the driveshaft? Is there any debris inside the boot? If not you are probably fine. If there is debris then you have a problem.
I haven't noticed any but I haven't disassemble the FD either.

As it is removing the Swingarm is a very good idea anyway as the swingarm bearings are rarely greased well from the factory so it's worth re-packing them along with the suspension linkage bearings. Be careful with these though as the needle rollers are crowded not caged and will fall out when you push the inner races out if you are not super-careful.
Are You talking about that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Pj8IfkyJs
I've already ordered new suspension linkage plus two bearings and sealing for the forged arm. Previews owner was driving in a bad weather conditions quite frequently without appropriate preparation.
Funny thing tough, the same Aprilla bearings where used in my BMW F650CS. And when I ordered it from BMW the cost was about half of the MG price. 

Thanks also for the information about the drive shaft. Without it I would straggle with the shaft for an hour or two.
I have a MG workshop manual but comparing to other manuals from BMW or Yamaha it's ridiculously shallow.
Thanks once again. I'll keep you posted.

Chris
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 05:05:52 PM by Wacholek »

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2015, 05:53:29 PM »
Are You talking about that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Pj8IfkyJs
I've already ordered new suspension linkage plus two bearings and sealing for the forged arm. Previews owner was driving in a bad weather conditions quite frequently without appropriate preparation.

The bearings that the swingarm pivots on in the frame aren't sealed real well. At least not on my Stelvio. They rust easily, since the factory doesn't go use and abundance of lube. The bearings in the linkage appeared to be sealed better, and easier to get to to lube too.

Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Vasco DG

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2015, 06:31:46 PM »
It's all fairly straightforward. Rear brake off, wheel off, disconnect torque rod, unbolt final drive box. With a Stelvio you don't even have to remove a side plate to access the swingarm spindle, just undo the pinch bolts at the spindle and wind out the castellated sleeve. Then the spindle can be unwound.



And removed. The cable ties holding the boot between the arm and the gearbox can be snipped.

The shock linkage can be disconnected from the swingarm underneath after which the swingarm can be slid down and off the still attached driveshaft.



The bearings can then be removed from the frame.







If the bearings haven't been looked after the results can be pretty nasty. This was a 1200 Sport at 50,000 Km.










« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 06:43:24 PM by Vasco DG »

Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2015, 06:46:40 PM »
Butting in here...when I took my swingarm off the bike to check the bearings I was surprised with how hard it was to get the drive shaft free from the transmission output shaft.  Hell, it was a simple splined shaft...WRONG.  As Pete has said, there is internal clip on the drive shaft that engages a groove on the output shaft.  Here's a photo of the output shaft and that groove.

Note the groove in the splined output shaft.
It takes a right smart smack from a dead blow hammer to break the driveshaft free.  Then it's easy to take care of anything else you have on your mind.
Growing old ain't for sissies.

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Offline Lannis

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2015, 06:54:49 PM »
Butting in here...when I took my swingarm off the bike to check the bearings I was surprised with how hard it was to get the drive shaft free from the transmission output shaft.  Hell, it was a simple splined shaft...WRONG.  As Pete has said, there is internal clip on the drive shaft that engages a groove on the output shaft.  Here's a photo of the output shaft and that groove.

Note the groove in the splined output shaft.
It takes a right smart smack from a dead blow hammer to break the driveshaft free.  Then it's easy to take care of anything else you have on your mind.

I read about that groove and clip in leafman60's description, and implied in Pete's description, and .... and ... is it REALLY OK (and as designed?) to just smack the clip off the groove?   That's not how most C-clips and E-clips work in a groove on a shaft .... ?

Lannis
"Hard pounding, this, gentlemen; let's see who pounds the longest".

Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2015, 07:37:55 PM »
Lannis, that clip is not accessable.  It's contained inside the female splined part of the drive shaft U joint.  The only way to dislodge that clip is with some kind of pressure.  I used a large screwdriver blade and hammer to spring mine free.  Your mileage may vary.
Peter Y.
Growing old ain't for sissies.

'13 V7 Special (red/white)

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2015, 08:14:55 PM »
I read about that groove and clip in leafman60's description, and implied in Pete's description, and .... and ... is it REALLY OK (and as designed?) to just smack the clip off the groove?   That's not how most C-clips and E-clips work in a groove on a shaft .... ?

It is a spring wire, not a real 'clip'. And there is no other way to access it.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Vasco DG

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2015, 12:05:04 AM »
You don't really smack the clip off the groove, the clip is slightly undersized for the groove in the yoke and oversized for the groove in the output shaft. Therefore when it is not under compression it expands enough to prevent the yoke sliding off the shaft but when you preload it by tugging the shaft rearwards and giving the front yoke a Biff it will ride up on the groove in the splines in the shaft and expand into the larger groove in the yoke. Once it has expanded thusly the yoke will slide off the shaft.

To re-install it you just slide it briskly forward on the shaft and the clip pops out and then closes into the groove on the shaft securing it again.

Pete
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 04:28:16 AM by Vasco DG »

Wacholek

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2015, 11:24:31 AM »
Hi everyone,
I've just resolved a loud bang problem.
Bolt marked red was loose and that was the only problem.

I also changed suspension bearing in connecting rod(triangle) and lubricated those one in the swing-arm. Despise the fact that both inner seals where fitted backwards the bearing where in a good shape. Now Stelvio is running great. It is the first time since it left factory. The knocking was there since the day one and my dealer said that is is normal in all Guzzi ??? ???.
Now I have only one problem. My lambda doesn't work, but I will deal with it later.
Best for You all guys.

One more think.
I didn't smack my shaft off with the blow hammer. A just consider it to be possibly to destructive. I've user the lever instead.

I user a very wide (half of an inch) flat screwdriver. And I just lifted the shaft and press gently but firmly one the screwdriver (red arrow). The shaft jumped off instantly. I didn't put anything between the screwdriver and the aluminum gearbox cover but since my screwdriver has also very long tip the flat surface of it was exactly at the flat surface of the flange.
Not even a scratch on both.

Once again thank You all,
Chris


« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 11:49:13 AM by Wacholek »

Offline John A

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2015, 12:23:08 PM »
Good job Wacholek! Once again I am impressed with the way this forum works and the level of intelligence found here, myself excepted of course!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 12:24:58 PM by john A »
John
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2015, 12:43:58 PM »
Chris -

Thanks a lot.   You were asking the question to get help, but you have ended up helping us other Stelvio owners quite a bit!   I understand a lot more about my rear suspension assembly than I did before!!

Lannis
"Hard pounding, this, gentlemen; let's see who pounds the longest".

Wacholek

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2015, 01:09:24 PM »
And all of those problems and misunderstandings have the same cause. Crappy workshop manual. Probably no other motorcycle brand have that ridiculously poor service manual. This in not a workshop manual. This suppose to be a user manual :D.
I'm glad that we have this forum. In my country I have only one importer and two repair shops. After all there is around 15 Stelvios in hole country.
 ;D

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2015, 01:31:19 PM »
And all of those problems and misunderstandings have the same cause. Crappy workshop manual. Probably no other motorcycle brand have that ridiculously poor service manual. This in not a workshop manual. This suppose to be a user manual :D.
I'm glad that we have this forum. In my country I have only one importer and two repair shops. After all there is around 15 Stelvios in hole country.
 ;D

Maybe you have the wrong manual. I thought the Stelvio workshop manual was fair.

Glad you found the problem.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline Spuddy

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Re: Stelvio 4V Final Drive
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2015, 07:17:39 PM »
I learned I'm gunna havta clean out the garage [but then my wife will want to park in it] if I want to try to do some involved wrenching.  For now I'll stick with changing the fog lamp bulbs.

[Suppose a second garage is a better option, as it complies with Montana motor toy requirements.]

Spuddy
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'01 W650
'00 Quota 1100ES + Ural

 

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