Author Topic: points booster  (Read 17877 times)

erik_w

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points booster
« on: February 15, 2015, 04:50:29 AM »
I've ordered a velleman diy points booster kit - seems like a fun way of improving ignition performance, has anybody tried this kit or smt similar?

it is built for a single coil system - but if I want to use it on a dual coil system, would that mean I need two of them? or could I just connect both coils to it and make a wasted spark setup?

anybody tried this?

oldbike54

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Re: points booster
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2015, 10:00:29 AM »
 Is this like the ignition amplifiers used on dual plugged beemers ?

  Dusty

erik_w

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Re:
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2015, 10:34:52 AM »
yes!

erik_w

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Re:
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2015, 10:35:36 AM »
Instead of the points creating the energy to fire the coil - this thing does and the breakers only function like a switch

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re:
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2015, 10:35:36 AM »

oldbike54

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Re: points booster
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2015, 11:38:37 AM »
 Not sure of any performance gain , should make the points last longer .

  Dusty

Online Stevex

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Re: points booster
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2015, 12:55:05 PM »
I've got two of these made up and ready to use on my LM2 (they don't come pre built in Europe, you have to solder them up).
Each set of points requires a separate kit.
Two reasons I've yet to install them...
1) According to the instructions they use 4A each (so 8A in total), which appears to be quite a bit when the alternator only produces 20A and if you're run lights,  indicators etc, it doesn't leave a lot to spare.
2) Having read threads by people who've installed them in cars, there are reports that some heat sinks get very hot.
Be interested in your thoughts if you install and use them.



« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 12:58:39 PM by Stevex »
Steve
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Offline rodekyll

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Re:
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2015, 02:25:54 PM »
Instead of the points creating the energy to fire the coil - this thing does and the breakers only function like a switch

I'm not sure what you mean.  Points don't create energy.  They act as a switch.

erik_w

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Re:
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2015, 02:44:20 PM »
no, your right - what I meant is that they take the current off the points and also makes it so the points gap doesn't matter

Offline rodekyll

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Re: points booster
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2015, 02:46:00 PM »
Thanks.  I understand now.   :)

Online Stevex

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Re:
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2015, 02:52:13 PM »
I'm not sure what you mean.  Points don't create energy.  They act as a switch.

These kits work by using the existing points to fire a transistor.
The transistor then earths the coil instead of the points. This reduces the load on the points from several amps to a few milliamps and so reduces points wear and the requirement to adjust them as often.
When installed, the original condensers must be removed or disconnected.
Steve
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Offline Seagondollar

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Re: points booster
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2015, 02:59:22 PM »
I've had previous electronic ignitions on cars and I had to disconnect them every couple of years to cook off any oil that wasn't burned off by the lower current.  YMMV  (Your Mileage May Vary - i.e. you may have different results.) 
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Re: points booster
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2015, 03:02:41 PM »
 There's wiring diaghrams on the Internet showing a GM  75-90 ish HEI module to handle the current with the points as a trigger. GM HEI modules are 10-30 bucks and you need two..... Nice thing about the GM HEI is every parts store in North America has them in stock. Another option for a guy who can build a very simple circuit.
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oldbike54

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Re: points booster
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2015, 03:14:00 PM »
True those GM modules are cheap and available , which is good , because you are gonna need 4 of them . 2 as spares , they are after all , GM parts   :o ;D

  Dusty

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Re: points booster
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2015, 03:25:39 PM »

1) According to the instructions they use 4A each (so 8A in total), which appears to be quite a bit when the alternator only produces 20A and if you're run lights,  indicators etc, it doesn't leave a lot to spare.
2) Having read threads by people who've installed them in cars, there are reports that some heat sinks get very hot.
Be interested in your thoughts if you install and use them.



They aren't going to use an EXTRA 4 amps. They are just talking about the 4 amps that the coil needs, which it also needs with the points.

Do you have a schematic?
I found the schematic. The electronics will use about 1/3 amp. The antique design uses a darlington transistor. There is going to be a good bit of heat at that transistor, and a bit less energy at the coil. But then the dwell time is so long on a Guzzi motor, it won't mean a thing.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 03:41:05 PM by Wayne Orwig »
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erik_w

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Re:
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2015, 03:44:06 PM »
Wayne,  do you mean the velleman kit? I thought I could rebuild it to accommodate two points and coils by doubling up on some wiring while letting the transistor work for both. what do you think about that?

Online Wayne Orwig

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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2015, 03:58:06 PM »
Wayne,  do you mean the velleman kit? I thought I could rebuild it to accommodate two points and coils by doubling up on some wiring while letting the transistor work for both. what do you think about that?
Yes the Vellman kit.
Doesn't Guzzi need separate coils, or a distributor?
What are you trying to do?
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Re: points booster
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2015, 04:10:15 PM »
I have the dyna made boosters on my shelf. When installed, I got an annoying spark when the ignition was turned on. I removed them.

erik_w

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Re:
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2015, 04:14:57 PM »
I thought that instead of having two systems working side by side - I would modify one to work with two points and two coils - I have a two coil two stroke bike wo  distributor I am working on - would that be advisable?

erik_w

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Re:
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2015, 04:15:25 PM »
annoying spark?

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Re: points booster
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2015, 04:22:18 PM »
Quote
They aren't going to use an EXTRA 4 amps. They are just talking about the 4 amps that the coil needs, which it also needs with the points.

Do you have a schematic?
I found the schematic. The electronics will use about 1/3 amp. The antique design uses a darlington transistor. There is going to be a good bit of heat at that transistor, and a bit less energy at the coil. But then the dwell time is so long on a Guzzi motor, it won't mean a thing.

Thanks, that's answered one of my questions.
I don't think I'll ever fit them; they're going to take up a fair bit of room and I don't ride the Guzzi enough for points wear to be much of a problem.
Heat from two heatsinks may also be a problem.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 04:23:14 PM by Stevex »
Steve
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Online Wayne Orwig

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Re: points booster
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2015, 04:58:40 PM »
Thanks, that's answered one of my questions.
I don't think I'll ever fit them; they're going to take up a fair bit of room and I don't ride the Guzzi enough for points wear to be much of a problem.
Heat from two heatsinks may also be a problem.

And they aren't waterproof. All told, it looks like a recipe for additional failure.
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Online Wayne Orwig

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Re:
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2015, 05:03:35 PM »
I thought that instead of having two systems working side by side - I would modify one to work with two points and two coils - I have a two coil two stroke bike wo  distributor I am working on - would that be advisable?

 ???

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Re: points booster
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2015, 05:52:53 PM »
annoying spark?

yes, depending on where the motor stops when you turn it off, the bogus ignition signal generated by turing on the ignition can happen when the intake valves are open, and create a backfire. sub-optimal...

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Re: points booster
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2015, 05:56:46 PM »
I have a single point version of these, and a dual point version sitting on my shelf. make me an offer...

http://www.dynaonline.com/skins/products/accessories/Dyna_Boosters/

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Re: points booster
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2015, 09:58:19 PM »
I bought two of the Velleman kits, just to have.  Fearful that they'd stop making them, since it's to support an archaic technology.  I even bought a 1970's vintage Popular Mechanics issue that explained and rated the different ignition booster systems.  Fascinating reading.

Ended up never using them.  All my points based machines use magnetos, not battery-coil systems, so there's less benefit to the kit.

Still an interesting idea though.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 10:04:14 PM by sign216 »
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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: points booster
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2015, 10:08:27 PM »
And they aren't waterproof. All told, it looks like a recipe for additional failure.


+1
I tried something like this in 70"s, it hated the rain, I wrapped it in plastic bag on side of road before removing it completely.
fixed a problem I didn't have and gave me one I can live without. Got soaked before I got going again!!!

35 + years later I can say with absolute authority, points live indefinitely without a magic box, just lube the wick annually. Condensors have never died.
What was the problem ?

Offline John A

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Re: points booster
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2015, 07:44:19 AM »
I got to see a lunar eclipse 35 years ago when the condenser failed on my Ambassador. Otherwise never had one stop me. I'm sure it was the eclipse that caused the failure :D
John
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Re: points booster
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2015, 07:22:56 PM »
Reportedly, there are two gains from the points booster.

1) Point surfaces get less current, and last longer.  With the booster, the points act simply as a switch, so they pass a very small signal current.  Less arcing and degradation of the point faces.
This may be moot.  My experience is that the rubbing arm and point mounts are more of a problem than the contact surfaces. 


2) Stronger spark.  The spark is actuated by the sudden collapse of the coil current when the points open.  The booster switches off the coil current electronically, which is faster than the mechanical points.  The faster collapse gives a greater spark.  Dynatek claims "Ultra fast spark voltage rise time; 50% faster than points." 
Actually, I'd think an electronic "switch" is more than 50% faster than a mechanical switch.  Is their claim just a guess?


3) Longer plug life.  With the booster the plug is passing much less amperage, so less erosion. 
Relevant?  My plugs get discarded more for contaminants and carbon deposits than for genuine erosion. 


I'd welcome more info on this topic.
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: points booster
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2015, 08:04:40 PM »
3) Longer plug life.  With the booster the plug is passing much less amperage, so less erosion. 

That one doesn't make much sense.  Lower current to the spark plug = weaker spark, by definition.  The points are carrying much less current and last lnger, but you hope the plugs get the same or more current.
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Re: points booster
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2015, 08:15:57 PM »
That one doesn't make much sense.  Lower current to the spark plug = weaker spark, by definition.  The points are carrying much less current and last lnger, but you hope the plugs get the same or more current.

Yea, the plugs should be getting the same current as before.  After all, the points are now simply a switch.   

As for "extending plug life," I am merely repeating the claim for more educated people to illuminate me.  There is much I don't know. 
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