Author Topic: points booster  (Read 17922 times)

Offline rodekyll

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Re: points booster
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2015, 08:37:43 PM »
#2 is also moot.

Electricity I often say is lazy stuff.  It's not going to work harder than it has to do get the job done.  If you've got a gap for it to cross, it will use the required amount of power to do the work.  If you got more power, goodonya -- frame it and put it on the wall.  The spark won't care.  It got what it needed.

Offline sign216

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Re: points booster
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2015, 08:43:59 PM »
#2 is also moot.

Electricity I often say is lazy stuff.  It's not going to work harder than it has to do get the job done.  If you've got a gap for it to cross, it will use the required amount of power to do the work.  If you got more power, goodonya -- frame it and put it on the wall.  The spark won't care.  It got what it needed.

Then what's the difference between a strong blue spark and weak one?

More, is more.  Stronger, equals a powerful spark.  Less, is just less.  And we've all seen that.
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Offline redrider90

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Re:
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2015, 08:50:54 PM »
Instead of the points creating the energy to fire the coil - this thing does and the breakers only function like a switch


How many remember the years ago the portable ignition system. If your ignition failed you hooked this up to your dizzy. It just provided constant spark to the points  and let the dizzy distribute it. It is sort of like slime for  an old style ignition system. I do not remember exactly how it worked but it was for temporary use in case of ignition failure.
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Offline rodekyll

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Re: points booster
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2015, 09:12:43 PM »
Then what's the difference between a strong blue spark and weak one?

More, is more.  Stronger, equals a powerful spark.  Less, is just less.  And we've all seen that.

The observation is empirical.  The causes not so simple.

My point is that if it takes 40w to light a bulb and you have 60w available, it still takes 40w to light the bulb.  You can have high resistence in your wires or a bad connection that makes the current draw more than 40w, but that's occurring independently of the set amount of 40w required to pass the current through the filament. 

In our case, the filament is the plug gap.  At 0.032, it takes some certain amount of juice to jump the gap.  Less than that amount and it won't go.  More than that amount and it won't care.  If you have a blue spark, it's skookum.  If you don't then the gap is wrong, the plug is fouled, the wires have high resistence or are leaky, the dwell is insufficient, quench is wrong, compression is wrong, heat is wrong, available power is bad or the coil is failing, etc.  None of those cases change the part where it takes some certain amount of voltage to jump the gap.

You can overcome contamination, bad gaps, and a lot of the other stuff I listed above by upping the current.  Nobody argues that.  But it's like turning up the radio to fix a funny noise in the engine -- you're not solving your problem.  If your spark is dirty, you need to find out why and clean it up.


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Re: points booster
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2015, 09:12:43 PM »

erik_w

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Re:
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2015, 05:50:16 AM »
Wayne,  you seem to know your way around a electrical schematic - do you suggest one would achieve much better results by altering this kit a bit?

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re:
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2015, 06:00:23 AM »
Wayne,  you seem to know your way around a electrical schematic - do you suggest one would achieve much better results by altering this kit a bit?

Uh, yeah he does.  ;D Sounds to me that you could achieve better results by giving it the flotation test..
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Online Rough Edge racing

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Re: points booster
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2015, 06:44:09 AM »
 Generally speaking an engine like a Guzzi requires about 12 thousand volts to fire the plug under normal conditions. If the coil is rated for 40K volts,no more than necessary to fire the plugs is required. If you can increase the duration of the spark, now's that's a good thing.
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Offline rboe

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Re: points booster
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2015, 07:58:43 AM »
There was a fellow over on the Honda Single Over Head Cam forum that sold kits and they seemed to like 'em. Seemed to have some promise but by the time I learned of it I had gone the Dyna route.

The two big pluses they pushed, pointed lasted a LOT longer, it was very easy, stupid easy, to unplug and go back to stock.
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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re:
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2015, 09:32:43 AM »
Wayne,  you seem to know your way around a electrical schematic - do you suggest one would achieve much better results by altering this kit a bit?

What Chuck said.

A quick search turned up the SPA17N80C3 mosfet. Twice the voltage rating and a nearly twice the current rating, compared to the TIP162 used in the kit.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SPA17N80C3/SPA17N80C3IN-ND/593227
The RDS(on) is a bit high, so you may want to parallel two of them. Two in parallel means the heatsink might be eliminated, or at least very small. Reduce or eliminate the zeners which may be wasting power. It would take some design changes. But in the end, other than the knowledge you have gained, the motor could care less. Well, until it gets wet and fails that is.
You really can't change the dwell time. Nothing gained there.
You really don't get any additional power to the coil, it is saturated. Nothing gained there.
You really need to retain the cap on the coil to get the 'multi strike' feature of the ringing field. Nothing gained there.


Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline sign216

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Re: points booster
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2015, 09:38:44 AM »
Yea, it should make the points last much longer.  You only deal w the points "cam" wear now.

It should also make a stronger spark,  especially when starting.   When cranking the engine to start, the points open so slowly.  The electronic switch of the booster is much faster,  giving a faster collapse of the coil current and a better spark.

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Offline geodoc

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Re: points booster
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2015, 11:25:53 AM »
I installed a Vellman unit on my Loop & very pleased with it. After about 10,000 km, it's on the original points with very little wear on the fiber heal and just a little evidence of pitting on the points surfaces, not enough to warrant replacing.

Starts easily hot or cold and after some experimenting with different advance springs, no evidence of detonation even when pulling a steep hill in hot temps w/o revving it unduly.

http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/K2543




Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: points booster
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2015, 12:38:08 PM »
Pretty bike..  :drool
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Offline lrutt

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Re: points booster
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2015, 12:49:20 PM »
HondaMan on the SOHC4 Honda website makes a dual point ignition booster like that for the old Honda 4's. I see no reason why it wouldn't work in a Goose if it would fit in the dizzy.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 12:52:02 PM by lrutt »
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Offline sign216

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Re: points booster
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2015, 02:36:55 PM »
NO.

Just look at the schematic and the TIP162 specs.


Wayne,

I disagree.  But instead of arguing, why not put it into SPICE and see how the circuit plays out?
Have you used it before, and can you enter the data? 
I'm traveling, working off my phone right now, so it'd be difficult for me until I get home.

Joe


(For others, SPICE is the most popular open source circuit simulator. )
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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: points booster
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2015, 08:11:04 PM »
I installed a Vellman unit on my Loop & very pleased with it. After about 10,000 km, it's on the original points with very little wear on the fiber heal and just a little evidence of pitting on the points surfaces, not enough to warrant replacing.

Starts easily hot or cold and after some experimenting with different advance springs, no evidence of detonation even when pulling a steep hill in hot temps w/o revving it unduly.




Interesting leg shields, how hot does that motor get at speed on a hot day ? not surprised you had to retard it, outside design brief to cut off air cooling.
But , as said previously, this unit won't effect heel wear and pitting after 10K Km (6 miles) is not good, I'd guess points are arcing (hard to see on a loop dizzy)
I'd try running without it but same springs/settings, might fix the pitting issue, no spark across points is much better for them.

erik_w

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Re:
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2015, 12:55:34 AM »
very nice looking bike you have! how have you packaged the wellman unit? I thought I would resin coat it and put it inside an aluminum box - letting the box work as a heat sink while doing without the issued hs - how have you done it?

erik_w

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Re:
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2015, 12:57:38 AM »
Wayne, what would happen if I simply hooked up both points and coils to this unit? it would spark one of the cylinders on the off stroke, but it should still work?

if not, if I wanted to build another box for dual points use, is there any component that could work as a distributor?

Offline John A

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Re: points booster
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2015, 05:55:23 AM »
Geodoc it is nice to see someone has saved a distributor machine, I would gladly make room in my crowded shop for one. Probly only use it every other decade but I learned most of them went in the scrap bin!
John
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Offline geodoc

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Re: points booster
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2015, 11:37:03 AM »
RE: leg shields - I've not noticed any problems with getting too hot, but here in Vancouver it rarely gets up there.

As for the Vellman package, I installed it in a little aluminum box that lives behind the RH side cover w/ some holes drilled in the rear and bottom to allow a bit of ventilation.

Since the engine is from a 1000SP / Convert (it was never clear which when I bought it), I used its standard advance curve as a target when setting up the distributor. Basically, I wanted to just slow down the rate of advance so dispensed with the "long loop" spring and tried different ones I got from a local guy that had an old Sun distributor machine with a drawer full of misc. springs. Here's something I sent to Greg Bender about fussing around with the distributor:

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_distributor_advance_curve_information.html

For your amusement, here's a Ducati 900SS project that I just finished an electrical system installation on. Yes, it took a while, but when I switched it on it didn't catch fire!



« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 11:58:50 AM by geodoc »

Offline sign216

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Re: points booster
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2015, 10:21:37 PM »
Regarding the points booster, in particular the orig. poster's Velleman kit, I examined it closely.  Asked some friends about it, even played with electronic circuit simulations.  More importantly, I sought the advice of people with greater electronic wisdom.

The bottom line is that the Velleman kit (and most ignition boosters/amplifiers) can provide a 10% increase in the spark.  Primarily due to recovering whatever loss there is in the slight points arcing during opening. 

That's it. 

Of course the kit will make the points last much longer, since the amperage is greatly reduced, but as for a greater spark you get roughly 10% more.  Even that is an approximation.  Whether 10% is great, or insignificant, I leave that up to the individual rider.

I like it.
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Offline mtiberio

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Re: points booster
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2015, 08:04:13 AM »
Geodoc, what is the carb/manifold setup on that v700?

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Re:
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2015, 08:15:18 PM »
no, your right - what I meant is that they take the current off the points and also makes it so the points gap doesn't matter

Having a incorrect gap will still alter the correct timing. 

Offline rodekyll

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Re: points booster
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2015, 12:50:13 AM »
It will alter the timing if you don't reset the timing after doing whatever you plan to do with the gap.

In practice, as long as the points open on time, with a 2-cyl, especially a dual coil 2-cyl, dwell isn't really an issue.  The coil has way more time to saturate than it needs.  Remember -- a bosch blue coil is also used on some V8's.  If it can fire 8 in a full cycle with a standard gap, it can fire one with a super wide gap.  The only think I can see suffering for it is the spark plug.

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Re: points booster
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2015, 08:10:11 AM »
As I said RK, Having a incorrect gap will still alter the correct timing. 

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Re: points booster
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2015, 08:42:50 AM »
It will alter the timing if you don't reset the timing after doing whatever you plan to do with the gap.

In practice, as long as the points open on time, with a 2-cyl, especially a dual coil 2-cyl, dwell isn't really an issue.  The coil has way more time to saturate than it needs.  Remember -- a bosch blue coil is also used on some V8's.  If it can fire 8 in a full cycle with a standard gap, it can fire one with a super wide gap.  The only think I can see suffering for it is the spark plug.

  Yup,somehow  points with one coil lit the fire in 4 inch bore 10-1 compression V8's at 7000 rpm until electronic ignition cam along.  On plug gap, the engine  sees a larger than required plug gap as an increase in timing.. Generally speaking a larger gap is required for leaner fuel mixtures..Sometimes a larger plug gap can make a bit more torque or a smoother idle but it all depends on many variables.
96 Ducati 900M , 79 Triumph 750,61 BSA A10, 650 Triumph land speed racer , dual 650 Triumph engine land speed racer.
" I  don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"

dilligaf

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Re: points booster
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2015, 08:44:25 AM »
[quote author=jacksonracingcomau link=topic=74724.msg1171486#msg1171486 date=1424059707
35 + years later I can say with absolute authority, points live indefinitely without a magic box, just lube the wick annually. Condensors have never died.
What was the problem ?
[/quote]

What Jackson said.  Keep the wick lubed.  Be all right.  ;D  :BEER:
Matt

Offline geodoc

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Re: points booster
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2015, 11:43:13 AM »
The manifolds on mine were modified 30mm ones from an 850T. This was to adapt 36mm Dellortos to an angle that would allow use of the stock air box. Later I made some that were easier to fabricate otherwise better using steel u-bend and water-jet cut flanges for a guy's Eldo:





Geodoc, what is the carb/manifold setup on that v700?

« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 11:46:07 AM by geodoc »

 


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