Author Topic: Transmission question #2 mainshaft/clustershaft torrington flat needle question  (Read 8626 times)

Offline NCAmother

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So, I've replaced all the case bearings in my 1975 850T gearbox.  I'm mocking up assembly, and noticed there are three washers (one bronze) on the front of the main shaft/ cluster shaft.  In the great Pete Roper tutorial, there is a torrington flat needle bearing,  and not the thick washers in my cluster shaft.  Is it that later 5 speed gearboxes used a bearing instead of bronze washer?  Would the upgrade to a bearing be worth it?  Thanks  :BEER:   Nate
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 03:15:29 PM by NCAmother »

Offline NCAmother

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Thought I'd refresh this post in case someone has an answer :)

Offline Old Jock

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Can't really help not that familiar with the 850T, is that a loop?

I looked at the parts manual from This old tractor at an 850GT and it showed what looks like flat washers where the needle thrust is on my bike (LM 1000), but its not 100% conclusive.

Might also be worth trying Guzztech and also asking the question if going to the Torringdon thrust would be a worthwhile mod while your in there.

Sorry I cannot be of more help

Hopefully Pete will be along or possibly Jackson Racing to put the question to bed................ .......at least I've gave it a bump

John

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That's interesting as to the best of my knowledge the bronze thrust washer had been superceeded by the Torrington bearing either at the end of Eldorado production or slightly earlier. I may be quite wrong on that and hopefully someone like Charlie will be able to give you a better steer.

What I do know is that there are differences in the machining of the face of the forth gear on the clustershaft that mean that you can't simply swap out the thrust washer for the later Torrington bearing and shim arrangement.

Early five speeds could I know be 'Different' and I have little experience with the, as Loops are rare over here. On this I'm sure the likes of Charlie or the resources of Greg Bender's site will be a lot more useful than anything else I might be able to add.

Pete

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Online Two Checks

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The T is a Tonti frame.
IIRC and my memory these days is more pornographic than photographic, that bearing is the one that failed in my Ts tranny after I bought it as a basket case. It had been stored dry for who knows how long. I put it back into service and it took a short while for it to fail along with other bearings.
It was my first and last (hopefully) venture into a Guzzi transmission. The shims on either sde of said bearing were destroyed, too.
1990 Cal III f/f  "Il Duce' III"
1987 1000 SPII "Il Duce' II"

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Quote
my memory these days is more pornographic than photographic

I'm familiar with that one..  ;D  ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
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I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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That's interesting as to the best of my knowledge the bronze thrust washer had been superceeded by the Torrington bearing either at the end of Eldorado production or slightly earlier. I may be quite wrong on that and hopefully someone like Charlie will be able to give you a better steer.

What I do know is that there are differences in the machining of the face of the forth gear on the clustershaft that mean that you can't simply swap out the thrust washer for the later Torrington bearing and shim arrangement.

Early five speeds could I know be 'Different' and I have little experience with the, as Loops are rare over here. On this I'm sure the likes of Charlie or the resources of Greg Bender's site will be a lot more useful than anything else I might be able to add.

Pete

The "other" Charley (Cole) could give the definitive answer about when the change from thrust washer to thrust bearing occurred since he has tons more experience than me. But, in my limited experience with five-speeds, all Eldos had the thrust washers and this was carried on through the 850-T. The T3 parts manual seems to be the first that specifically shows that bearing as a needle bearing.
Charlie

Offline NCAmother

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That's interesting as to the best of my knowledge the bronze thrust washer had been superceeded by the Torrington bearing either at the end of Eldorado production or slightly earlier. I may be quite wrong on that and hopefully someone like Charlie will be able to give you a better steer.

What I do know is that there are differences in the machining of the face of the forth gear on the clustershaft that mean that you can't simply swap out the thrust washer for the later Torrington bearing and shim arrangement.

Early five speeds could I know be 'Different' and I have little experience with the, as Loops are rare over here. On this I'm sure the likes of Charlie or the resources of Greg Bender's site will be a lot more useful than anything else I might be able to add.

Pete
Thanks Pete,
I really don't see much wear on the thrust washer, I might just stick with the washers unless you know of failure issues with the other other "non" torrington transmissions

Offline NCAmother

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The "other" Charley (Cole) could give the definitive answer about when the change from thrust washer to thrust bearing occurred since he has tons more experience than me. But, in my limited experience with five-speeds, all Eldos had the thrust washers and this was carried on through the 850-T. The T3 parts manual seems to be the first that specifically shows that bearing as a needle bearing.
Thanks, it's mid production 850T (build date October 1974).

Offline Hahnda

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As we know the T was a bit of a transitional bike. The parts manual I have shows it as a needle bearing. My 850T has that needle bearing. Parts manual does not show anything about the change to an oil filter.

Here is a screen shot from the 850T manual.

2003 V11 Lemans - 2000 Quota w/ Sidecar
1996 California - 1976 Convert
1975 850T -750S Project - 1975 Eldorado Police
1973 Eldorado - 3x 1971 Ambassador
1970 Ambassador - 1963 Stornello Sport
1949 GTV - 1948 Airone

www.scramblercycle. com

Online Two Checks

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Hahnda, that's what I was about to post. My T had both the thrust bearing and oil filter.
I suspect Guido decided 75 was to be the last year for the T and stopped making the T specific parts and then had to use T3 parts to finish the model year.
If it's any help the s/n was 94404.
1990 Cal III f/f  "Il Duce' III"
1987 1000 SPII "Il Duce' II"

Offline NCAmother

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My serial number is 93252

Offline NCAmother

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Hahnda, that's what I was about to post. My T had both the thrust bearing and oil filter.
I suspect Guido decided 75 was to be the last year for the T and stopped making the T specific parts and then had to use T3 parts to finish the model year.
If it's any help the s/n was 94404.

It would make sense as you say, that the later T's would have some of the T3's upgrades

Offline Hahnda

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My number is 97280.
2003 V11 Lemans - 2000 Quota w/ Sidecar
1996 California - 1976 Convert
1975 850T -750S Project - 1975 Eldorado Police
1973 Eldorado - 3x 1971 Ambassador
1970 Ambassador - 1963 Stornello Sport
1949 GTV - 1948 Airone

www.scramblercycle. com

Offline Dick

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Like Pete say; there is a dimensional difference in mainshafts, so you can't change out the thrust washers to thrust bearing without changing the mainshaft too. It's also possible:
You have an Eldo trans in your T. Examine your cover for speedo drive placement, but then again the covers could have been swapped out during transmission swap, if a swap was done?
Could be you have a very early T trans, before change was made. Wouldn't hurt to check the shim pack per the repair manual specs. before installation. Good luck.

Online mtiberio

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The "other" Charley (Cole) could give the definitive answer about when the change from thrust washer to thrust bearing occurred since he has tons more experience than me. But, in my limited experience with five-speeds, all Eldos had the thrust washers and this was carried on through the 850-T. The T3 parts manual seems to be the first that specifically shows that bearing as a needle bearing.

+1

I'd asume your 850-T got a "eldo" tranny. FWIW, when I was racing, I liked the Eldo 5 speed with the bronze thrust washer, I feel it shifted "tighter". meaning it had less slop. may have been the shift drum was shimmed better, but a mainshaft slopping around would manifest itself similarly for certain gears.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 04:19:01 PM by mtiberio »

Offline NCAmother

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Like Pete say; there is a dimensional difference in mainshafts, so you can't change out the thrust washers to thrust bearing without changing the mainshaft too. It's also possible:
You have an Eldo trans in your T. Examine your cover for speedo drive placement, but then again the covers could have been swapped out during transmission swap, if a swap was done?
Could be you have a very early T trans, before change was made. Wouldn't hurt to check the shim pack per the repair manual specs. before installation. Good luck.

Thanks, I'm guessing it's the original transmission as the stake nuts on the output shaft and clutch hub nut didn't look messed with and was in a complete but dead motorcycle that had been in storage since  '84, but then again maybe that would explain an eldorado trans swap?  I'm using Pete Roper's shimming guide and John Nobles lemans IV rebuild guide http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/pdf/gearbox-rebuilding-john-noble.pdf and besides the non existent bearing, the parts look the same, the case looks the same as well.  BTW, those are just a couple of amazing guides on 'this old tractor' site, there's also a really good bearing cross reference guide

Offline NCAmother

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+1

I'd asume your 850-T got a "eldo" tranny. FWIW, when I was racing, I liked the Eldo 5 speed with the bronze thrust washer, I feel it shifter "tighter". meaning it had less slop. may have been the shift drum was shimmed better, but a mainshaft slopping around would manifest itself similarly for certain gears.

This gives me the confidence of just reusing the thrust washer, thank you

Offline Old Jock

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I'm using Pete Roper's shimming guide and John Nobles lemans IV rebuild guide

Well we have both replied to your post too.  ;D

Hope you found the guide useful. I'm not fit to polish Pete's boots but thought I'd have a go at giving something back.

BTW this place is a fantastic resource, the guys (excluding me) who have already pitched in have a real depth of knowledge. Almost any other mark of motorcycle you'd pay dear to get info freely given here.

Just Sayin

John

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I think your revisions are far more useful and concise than my original John. But I'll send you a set of my bashed up boots if you'd like...:D

Pete

Offline NCAmother

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Well we have both replied to your post too.  ;D

Hope you found the guide useful. I'm not fit to polish Pete's boots but thought I'd have a go at giving something back.

BTW this place is a fantastic resource, the guys (excluding me) who have already pitched in have a real depth of knowledge. Almost any other mark of motorcycle you'd pay dear to get info freely given here.

Just Sayin

John
Oh Dang!  I had no idea you were John Noble.  Your rebuild guide and Pete's shimming guide are the two things that gave me confidence to crack open the transmission, and i'm glad I did.  Upon teardown I noticed the oil fill plug was modified with a magnet (I have no idea why the previous owner would do that), the gear smacked most of the magnet off, leaving a plug with a partial magnet and a nice 4" hairline crack that starts at the plug hole. All the replies opened my eyes, as I didn't even know that eldorado used washers instead of a bearing, and my 850T shop manual illustrated a needle bearing.  Sometimes it takes a bunch of replies from you guys to penetrate my thick skull  :BEER:

Offline Old Jock

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Glad it helped and thanks its always nice to get told somebody found the time and effort taken useful.

I am a mere bodger whose not got enough sense to know when things should be left to the pros  ;)

There's guys on here who just blow me away with their level of skill pressureangle with his LM IV build thread and Chuck in Indiana taking an aero engine and stuffing it into a Lario, see Aero Engine Rescue thread a few pages back and a helluva lot more

Pete

If the postman arrives with a big box I'll go get the boot polish  ;D

I really need to find some time to add some of the suggestions to it that others have kindly suggested too

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Oh Dang!  I had no idea you were John Noble.  Your rebuild guide and Pete's shimming guide are the two things that gave me confidence to crack open the transmission, and i'm glad I did.  Upon teardown I noticed the oil fill plug was modified with a magnet (I have no idea why the previous owner would do that), the gear smacked most of the magnet off, leaving a plug with a partial magnet and a nice 4" hairline crack that starts at the plug hole. All the replies opened my eyes, as I didn't even know that eldorado used washers instead of a bearing, and my 850T shop manual illustrated a needle bearing.  Sometimes it takes a bunch of replies from you guys to penetrate my thick skull  :BEER:

Cracked case 4" ? Weldable I  hope
Interesting plug, all T series, LM1-3 etc etc had a brass fill plug with a magnet in it, I've never seen one fail, I'd be a bit worried what the bits of broken magnet stuck to, hard to believe they didn't get caught twixt gears.

I didn't know torrington didn't fit early shafts either, we all learn something here, you should post a pic of back end behind 4th , good for reference when someone finds a shaft, I'll dig out a later one as comparo. All good info for box of bits rebuilds in future

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Oh Dang!  I had no idea you were John Noble.  Your rebuild guide and Pete's shimming guide are the two things that gave me confidence to crack open the transmission, and i'm glad I did.  Upon teardown I noticed the oil fill plug was modified with a magnet (I have no idea why the previous owner would do that), the gear smacked most of the magnet off, leaving a plug with a partial magnet and a nice 4" hairline crack that starts at the plug hole. All the replies opened my eyes, as I didn't even know that eldorado used washers instead of a bearing, and my 850T shop manual illustrated a needle bearing.  Sometimes it takes a bunch of replies from you guys to penetrate my thick skull  :BEER:

If you end up needing a replacement case, I have an empty one you can have for the cost of shipping.
Charlie

Offline NCAmother

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Cracked case 4" ? Weldable I  hope
Interesting plug, all T series, LM1-3 etc etc had a brass fill plug with a magnet in it, I've never seen one fail, I'd be a bit worried what the bits of broken magnet stuck to, hard to believe they didn't get caught twixt gears.

I didn't know torrington didn't fit early shafts either, we all learn something here, you should post a pic of back end behind 4th , good for reference when someone finds a shaft, I'll dig out a later one as comparo. All good info for box of bits rebuilds in future
I just bolted up the end case yesterday.  I had no idea the brass fill plug came stock with a magnet, I would of thought it belongs in drain plug.  I've cleaned the transmission, gears, and swapped most bearings, but I haven't seen any pieces of magnet. I inspected the gear shafts and fortunately didn't see any damage.   On the crack near the drain plug were several gouges about 2-3mm deep and 6-8mm long.  The end of the fill plug, the brass end that holds the magnet is pretty hammered, but you can see a bit of magnet still in place.

Offline NCAmother

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If you end up needing a replacement case, I have an empty one you can have for the cost of shipping.
Thanks Charlie!,  I did remove the epoxy and welded the crack on the outside and inside, then sanded down the internal weld so it would be clear of the output gear.  I think I'm ok with this case, but I'll definitely keep your offer in mind if things get bad.

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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here's what they should (& shouldn't) look like, magnet captive by peened over brass
Miles of clearance beneath, just catches swarf & worse, nice when they're clean but sludgy stuff not uncommon, better out of oil


Offline NCAmother

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here's what they should (& shouldn't) look like, magnet captive by peened over brass
Miles of clearance beneath, just catches swarf & worse, nice when they're clean but sludgy stuff not uncommon, better out of oil


Thanks for the photo Jackson!  So I guess it's common the magnet is on the upper transmission fill plug.  Mine looked like that, except the "pinched" part holding the magnet looked bashed up pretty good.

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