(NGC) 2wd vs 4wd pckups

[Gliderjohn]

Thinking of upgrading to a full sized PU from my current 97 Nissan mini PU 2wd. Seems like 2wd PUs are by far the minority anymore. Am I missing something here? For years I have got along fine with 2wd. I grew up a farm kid and back in the 60s I don't recall any farm PUs being 4wd. With good mud tires one could get through all but the worst of snow or mud.
I am going to be retiring at the end of next month so it is not like I have to get out in bad weather. I would think a 2wd would be cheaper to operate overall. Anyone here give me a good reason not to stay with 2wd?
GliderJohn

[BillinPA]

I have two 2wd trucks both F150's. Snow tires in winter and no problems. Cheaper to buy, maintain and insure.

[screamday]

I have own just 3 pick-ups in the last 30 years. All 2WD. I bought a new F150 in the summer of 2013...2WD. A friend of mine just bought a used 2012, 4WD. When we were comparing trucks I told him mine was 2WD and he commented that he didn't know they still made 2WD trucks any more.  :BEER: In the 30 years Ive owned pick-up trucks I can remember only 2 times I've gotten myself in a situation where 4WD would have come in handy. Of those 2 times I had to be pulled out of my predicament only once.....by a friend with a 4WD. Of course he had a Chevy and I had a Ford. You can imagine the friendly banter that ensued.  ~;

[Gliderjohn]

Quote from oldbike54:

Hard to beat that generation of 2WD Nissan PU , last of the real mini trucks .

I will say they are reliable and tough for a small PU. However, noisy, rough riding, underpowered and poor gas milage (around 20mpg with a 4cyl & 5sp manual) Those are the main reason I am considering replacing it.
GliderJohn

[Sasquatch Jim]

 2wd versus 4wd = my thing is bigger than your thing.  Unless you actually have a NEED to use the 4wd.

[rocker59]

I used to drive 2wd pickups.  Chevrolet C10 Silverados.  Back when GM 4x4 was solid front axle and ride quality sucked.  I also had an S10 and a Mazda.  So, four 2wd pickups.

Sure, I got by.  Chained up when it snowed.  Got pulled out when I got stuck in wet pastures, etc.

No more.  I will never again own a 2wd pickup that I have to depend on 24/7/365.

I live in the mountains.  I drive off pavement with loads and trailers.  I use the 4wd regularly and am thankful to have it.

If you live in the flatlands and rarely venture off pavement, sure you can get by without 4x4.  But why?

4x4 pickups are so common, and the ride quality is so improved from 25 years ago, that there is no reason to do without.

[Lannis]

Thinking of upgrading to a full sized PU from my current 97 Nissan mini PU 2wd. Seems like 2wd PUs are by far the minority anymore. Am I missing something here? For years I have got along fine with 2wd. I grew up a farm kid and back in the 60s I don't recall any farm PUs being 4wd. With good mud tires one could get through all but the worst of snow or mud.
I am going to be retiring at the end of next month so it is not like I have to get out in bad weather. I would think a 2wd would be cheaper to operate overall. Anyone here give me a good reason not to stay with 2wd?
GliderJohn

Nobody ever used to be able to afford 4WD pickups, even when they were the same premium over a 2WD that they are today.   When roads were bad, they'd make sure they had weight in the back, proper tires, and go.

Today, it's a lot like giant 1800cc motorcycles.   They won't do a thing that a 900cc bike won't do, but the marketing people, and the buyers that the marketeers sold them to, will tell you that you aren't really a fully-equipped, fully-male MAN unless you have a huge bike, or unless you have a 4WD pickup.

If there's a job that someone has to do that HAS to have a 4WD, fine.   But I know the guys buying trucks and SUVs, and I hear and I see, and most of them would get along just fine with a cheaper, less expensive to run and fix 2WD, except that they HAVE TO HAVE a 4WD.    

You already know what you need.   Nothing wrong with a nice 2WD pickup.   That's what my next one is going to be.

Lannis (Edit: Could this post be a bigger contrast than Rocker's above?    :D   Great minds don't always think alike .... !)

[Nic in Western NYS]

All depends on what it's needed for - as folks have said.  I have a rusty 2002 F150 short bed standard cab that is lifted a bit and was great letting me see over the 5+ foot snowbanks this winter.  It lets me back a load of rocks or dirt down the hill and not get stuck where a 2wd shouldn't go.  Mine was cheap and I'll get at least another season out of it.  For the hilly, very snowy and muddy terrain here, 4wd is the way to go.  If I lived in Kansas, I'd be tempted to go for 2wd if it's as flat as I remember.  Best, Nic

[Gliderjohn]

Quote from oldbike54;

and most new 4WD trucks aren't gonna ride much better or get better mileage .

I recently got to drive a 2013 F-150 4wd quad cab and let me assure you that it rode much, much smoother than my Nisson. Much, much more quite too with almost the same milage (19 over about 70 miles mostly at highway speeds) if you could believe the computer.
GuzziJohn

[rocker59]

 (Edit: Could this post be a bigger contrast than Rocker's above?    :D   Great minds don't always think alike .... !)

1977 C10 Silverado
1983 C10 Silverado
1984 Mazda B2000
1992 Chevrolet S10

So, I've done my time with 2wd pickups over the past 35 years.

Currently drive a 2002 Suburban 1500 4x4.  I use the 4x4 all the time in situations that would have a 2wd pickup's rear wheels spinning.  Something as simple as going into the (flat) pasture to retrieve my horse trailer on a rainy day can induce rear wheel spin and tear up the ground.  If I start off in 4x4, then no wheel spin and no drama, and no ruts.  Steep gravel roads pulling a trailer?  2wd pickup can spin the rears, but in the same situation, I just touch the 4x4 button before it gets steep, and no loss of traction, and no gravel thrown all over the place.   It's also real nice to not have to chain up when it snows in the winter.  I used to chain up my 2wd pickups, and they'd go real good in the snow.  But they didn't go as well in the snow as my 4x4 Suburban does at the touch of a button!

I could go on and on, but the anti-4x4 comments in this thread are clearly made by people who are either not driving 2wd pickups, or they are not driving them in situations where their limitations are clear.

[redrider]

Are they REAL 2 an4 wheel drive? The Cherokee label says 4 wheel but the rear has a differential which only powers one rear. My 150 will spin the right rear on wet pavement with no drive to the left rear, like the Cherokee.

[kirb]

In some places (Wisconsin, Northern MI, etc) 2wd trucks are useless in severe winter. Limited slip and a boat load of weight helps, but not always and it snows too much to risk it. I have had a 4x4 for a long time and would never go back. I had a 4x2 mini pickup in college, northern WI/MI...it was a challenge to drive and you had to plan HOW you got somewhere. That was with 400lbs of corn in the back with Firestone SNOW tires (not all-season). That sucked.

It depends on what you are using it for. Don't buy it if you don't need it. Situation is everything. Dropping the truck into 4x4 auto when the weather turns to shit makes things MUCH easier, but I live in Michigan. I can also go just about anywhere without much fear of getting stuck. I wouldn't need it if I was going back and forth to home depot in Alabama...

2WD trucks are cheaper, but 4x4 does hold it's value even if they cost more initially. A 10yo 4x4 is going to be worth more than a 10yo 4x2 of similar condition (and are in demand in snow states). I haven't had any issues with my 4x4 that I wouldn't have had with a 4x2...save for one transaxle shift motor over the (3) trucks I have had. That was $600 with new u-joints at the same time. Other than that, no additional service costs. That's about 300,000 miles over 15 years? Something like that.

I rely on my truck too much to NOT have it. That's me. Your situation may vary.

[kirb]

Are they REAL 2 an4 wheel drive? The Cherokee label says 4 wheel but the rear has a differential which only powers one rear. My 150 will spin the right rear on wet pavement with no drive to the left rear, like the Cherokee.

I always buy my 4x4 with a limited slip rear. That option you can select in any 1/2 ton truck if you look.
Why anyone would buy a 4x2 without a limited slip boggles the mind. It turns your 4x1 into at least a 4x2 when the shit gets real.

[Lannis]

I could go on and on, but the anti-4x4 comments in this thread are clearly made by people who are either not driving 2wd pickups, or they are not driving them in situations where their limitations are clear.

What I've observed is that there are SOME people who own a 4WD pickup because a 2WD will not do the job they need done.  You're obviously one of them.

And there are OTHER people (see motorcycle analogy) who drive a 4WD because (A) the 4WDs are Big and Tall and people won't notice that they are compensating for something they're afraid they don't have and (B)   A Real Man drahves a gawdam Four Wheel Drive 'cause he ain't a MAN if he don't.

Surely you've seen that in some people?   I know I have.   They'll even say it, and then will never drive off road or in low-traction conditions at all.  

I also know people here who work their trucks very hard, and are sometimes in mud or snow, and haul real loads in their pickups, and they're 2WD, because they can't afford to spend money on something that they don't have to have, and they're not paying for image .... ?

At any rate, the purpose of the responses is to give gliderjohn input on 2 vs 4 and why.   I think he's got that, regardless of who's "right" or who can't understand why someone wouldn't do X etc ....  ;-T

Lannis

[andrewdonald1]

One thing that I loved about having it on my 99 Ford PSD Dually 4x4.
It had shift on the fly 4x4 hubs.

When I was going up steep fire roads with a 11.5 ft camper (5000 lb camper), doing maybe 15 mph or so.
The transmission was an automatic.
It had a air cooled transmission cooler.
The new ones are liquid cooled.

Because I was driving so slow, there wasn't much airflow across the transmission cooler.
Transmission would start going over 200 deg F as in 1st/2nd gears the power was not transferred directly thru the transmission like a manual transmission.
I'd shift it into 4-low and she'd drop at least 20 deg F on the transmission temps in about 5 minutes.  

Really helped the reliability of the transmission when you keep those temps down.



Another time that really helped:  camper on, pulling a boat out of the water on a steep slimy boat launch.
Slip it in 4-low and she'd walk right out of it.

So my point is:  I personally wouldn't have a pick up without 4x4.
There's a lot to be said about having it if you can afford it.

[John Ulrich]

4 wheel drive gets you stuck further in the woods   ;D

[Adk.IBO]

I currently own a 2wd truck and front wheel drive car. 4wd is over rated imo. That said, my next truck will probably be 4wd only because I don't want to snowblow forever. If we are staying here for the duration plowing snow will become a priority. The truck I have now might just go another 10 years. A lot can change in that amount of time. We live where our lawn is covered in November and the white stuff is still covering our lawn as I type this. Maybe by the end of the week... Yesterday was my first ride of this year, 177 miles. Felt really good to get out!

Stay safe, John

[Gliderjohn]

Let me narrow the parameters a bit. I am leaning toward a full size extended ( not a quad just the basic extended cab) cab 1/2 ton with the basic V-8. Interested in a full size this time for the additional room, quietness, and ride. It appears that milage is reasonable. It will mostly be used for occasional brush hauling, taking trash can to the road, hauling the ATV, mower or motorcycles as needed either in back or on a small single axel trailer, chauffeuring the dog, hense the extended cab for his accommodation plus cargo room. The wife, dog and I like to do back road drives just for exploring fun. I will probably try to find a 3-6 year old truck with around or under 100K miles as I will probably average under 10K miles a year. I am leaning toward Ford but not stuck on it.
We are also going to go from two to one car which would be my wife's primary transportation. We are thinking of going with a late model used Subaru for that so we could have that for bad road backup. Plus my farm neighbors always like to show off their truck's pulling one out of the ditch abilities.  ;D
GliderJohn

[andrewdonald1]

If you decide to want to put a snow plow on the front, and you want to go diesel:
Look carefully at the Gross Allowable Axle Rating of that front axle.
When I had my PSD, that adds a lot of weight over the front axle vs the gas engine.
Enough that it was not recommended to put a snow plow on the front of it with the diesel.

[M0T0Geezer]

I know you said you were wanting a "full sized" pickup truck...
and that you thought 2WD was about all you had ever needed before.

But there is another alternative:

Consider the Honda Ridgeline pickup.  It is a 3/4 size truck (V6) with a true 2WD/4WD stability-controlled (by computer) drive system.  

Note that the 2WD/4WD on the Honda is not an "All Wheel Drive" (viscous) system such as found on Subaru and other AWD vehicles.  

The Honda Ridgeline pickup is robust with a 5.000 lb tow rating which allows it to pull many boat and RV trailer GVWRs.

Here is a link to a technical discussion (by an Honda engineer) and drawings of the full time 2WD/4WD drive system used in the Honda Ridgeline PU and PILOT SUV vehicles:

http://www.dansher.com/bikepix/Guzzi/VTM-4_fyi.pdf

I have put 65,000 miles on a 2WD/4WD Honda PILOT SUV and have towed an RV trailer many miles with no problems.  When not towing, I get 20 mpg in city and 25 mpg on the highway @ 70 mph.

I do not work for Honda and do not sell them.  I just really like the PILOT and I think the Ridgeline would be worth a close look by you.

'Geezer

[drw916]

If you live where you need 4 wheel drive, there is no acceptable alternative.  We live 15 miles out of town and have an AWD Juke, and a Landrover Discovery.  My last truck was a Dodge 3/4t diesel 4 wheel drive. 

A few years ago we inherited a Toyota Tacoma 2 wheel drive, which couldn't get me home even with only a couple inches of snow. (steep hills).  I sold it real fast to get the Juke.

I never bothered with 4 wheel drive when I lived in Seattle, or Norfolk.  But I wouldn't get anything else here in Spokane.  By the way, every other car here is a Subaru, and there aren't even that many lesbians ;D

[Kev m]

Here's a thought.

Do people NEED 4wd or AWD, or do they just WANT IT?

Do people NEED a 100 hp 8V Guzzi instead of a smallblock, or do they just want it?

[Kev m]

I've spent my life in the northeast, and my first two cars and two trucks were RWD... My third truck was 4wd.

My fourth truck started life as 2wd, but within a year I converted it to 4wd.

Ever since then, with the exception of a couple of turbo/supercharged "hot hatchbacks" which were FWD EVERY CAR AND TRUCK I'VE BOUGHT (6 more cars and trucks) have been 4wd or AWD.

WHY?

Because in all situations they provide me better traction and ability to use the vehicle as I see fit, including but not limited to:

* Snow -whether we're talking getting to or from the ski mountain or to and from the hospital for a shift for Jenn. We KNOW it will be easier with it.

* Rain - yup, less chance of hydroplaning because you hit a puddle at speed, or losing the rear in a curve.

* off-road whether it's the ability to get to our Bud's 4x4 access only dune house in Corolla OBX, or to remote campsites, or even a slippery boat ramp.

* performance - in the case of the Juke or our Subarus, the added ability to reduce the possibility of under or oversteer in a curve and just plain enjoy getting a little frisky with it.

And fwiw, there's not that much of a mpg penalty anymore.

The new mid-size Colorado/Canyon isn't that small a truck in crew cab configuration. It manages a respectable 17/24 in 4wd and just a bit more 18/26 as a 2wd, so there is very little downside.

IF I were to buy a RWD again, it damnwell better have a limited slip rear diff... But I can't see buying anything that isn't capable of driving four wheels.

[wrbix]

My 4x4 F250 does not have "4x4" in big letters on the side, so I guess I'm not compensating for anything - just getting the jobs done. Not being able to even climb slight grassy inclines when wet in 2WD defines the need for 4WD - unless one spends the truck's lifetime on pavement.
Define YOUR mission - get what YOU need.

[redrider]

Why anyone would buy a 4x2 without a limited slip boggles the mind.

I agree but mine was inherited from dad. The Wrangler I had was the same until I had it rebuilt with a LS. The open diff makes tight turns easier on tires though.

[kingoffleece]

I plow.  That'll tell you.

[PeteS]

I have had two 4WD Fords followed by two 2WD Fords and now a 2WD Toyota. 4WD cost more up front, more to operate and more expensive to fix. 2WD with Limited Slip and snows has gotten me through all of our winters without getting stuck. The Toyota has been pretty trouble free except for brakes but thats mostly because it sits most of the summer. One thing I don't like about it is the electronic limited slip. Its slow to react compared with the old mechanical systems.

Pete

[Lannis]

Here's a thought.

Do people NEED 4wd or AWD, or do they just WANT IT?

Do people NEED a 100 hp 8V Guzzi instead of a smallblock, or do they just want it?

I don't think that you'd ever get a consensus on the meaning of "need".   "Want" will be pretty easy!

I do without things every day that many people believe that they will die very soon if they don't have.    They'd probably say they "need" them, and in that sense maybe they do. 

The closest you'll get is that people "Need" certain things to maintain what they consider their "quality of life".   And what does THAT mean .... ?   

And so on .....

Lannis

[Gliderjohn]

Thanks to all the replies. All input appreciated. I am also an opportunist. If the right deal came along I might consider a 4x4. Didn't think about the limited slip rear end until that was brought up. I will look for that for sure if I go 2wd.
GliderJohn

[Kev m]

Pete, more expensive to fix? Is that a fact or assumption? I wouldn't assume it true.

The question is now complicated these days by fact that many models are only available in 2wd with certain (base) powertrains and configurations. But when comparing the same trim levels in RWD vs 4WD there only a handful of repairs which would differ greatly.

Lannis, just a musing on the silliness of this crowd questioning the wants of others.