2016 V7II Stone -- First Servicing Report

[sib]

As of yesterday, I had managed to put on nearly 700 mi, overdue for the initial service.

First, the MAINT indicator came on at approximately the correct mileage, ~620 mi (1000 km), as opposed to the case with my previous ’13 V7 Stone, which came on at ~465 mi (750 km), correct for the early 2TB models but incorrect for the 1TB models.  Good sign of things to come.  To reset, held in the left button, turned the ignition on, then off.

Draining (hot) and filling oils and changing the crankcase oil filter were all simple, straightforward, and easy.  Nothing’s changed for the engine, UFI 25-531-00 filter, 2L of SAE 10W-60 API SG oil, new crush washers for drain plugs and oil filter cap retainer bolt.  All got 12 Nm torque.  The drained engine oil was clean and there was no accumulation on the drain bolt magnets.

The new 6-sp gearbox has a convenient oil drain at the bottom, removable with a 24-mm socket, and drains directly downward instead of out the rear, which the 5-sp box does.  No more worries about oil spurting out onto the exhaust crossover or elsewhere.  With the oil drain plug removed, it was easy to pull out the gearbox oil filter, a simple plastic piece, and inspect and clean it, if necessary.  It was whistle clean.  The gearbox oil drain plug uses a reusable a O-ring instead of a crush washer.  There is no tightening torque indicated in the manuals, so I tightened it to ~12 Nm.  It was easy to replace the oil with a measured 500 mL of SAE 75W-90 API GL5 gearbox oil through the filler opening, which is now located on top of the gearbox instead of on the side, and very accessible.

Nothing’s changed for the final drive, I refilled it with a measured 170 mL of SAE 85W-140 API GL5 hypoid oil through the threaded vent hole, using a funnel and a plastic piping, rather than through the filler port, it’s easier and less messy that way.  New crush washers on the drain plug and vent.  The drained final drive oil was very dark, nearly black, and there was some, but not excessive, crud on the magnet.

The cylinder head nuts were adequately tight, but I re-torqued them anyway (cold), to 42 Nm (center nuts), 25 Nm (bottom nuts) and 28 Nm (top nut).  After re-torqueing these, I measured the valve gaps, which were tight (~0.10 mm intake, ~0.15 mm exhaust).  I adjusted them to spec 0.15 mm intake and 0.20 mm exhaust. [UPDATE:  THE BOTTOM TWO NUTS SHOULD BE TIGHTENED TO 42 Nm, NOT 25 Nm.  SEE LATER POSTS ON THIS THREAD.] 

For adjusting the valves, I lifted the rear wheel slightly with a scissors jack under the frame crosspiece, put the gearbox in 6th gear, removed the spark plugs, and used the rear wheel to turn the engine to TDC for each cylinder, located by putting a thin bamboo kabob stick in the spark plug holes.

The spark plugs had a measured gap of 0.9 mm, larger than the spec 0.6-0.7 mm, but I left them alone, since my previous experience is that the engine runs better with 0.9 mm gaps.  Tightened to 12 Nm.

While I had the torque wrench out, I re-torqued the exhaust header column nuts to 10 Nm.  They needed it.

All in all, this bike is extremely easy and enjoyable to service.  I didn’t even get dirty doing it!

[sib]

But how many beers did it take to do it?  That's the real measure.

True enough, but the agreement with the missus is no drinking before riding.  But my estimate is that it's a two-beer job.

[GuzziKevin]

Be careful with the bamboo kabob stick. I did that once and it came out shorter than it went in. Not sure how it happened, I turned the engine slowly but neither heard nor felt anything out of the ordinary. Almost didn't notice it and I shudder to think of what would have happened if I'd started it.

[Cam3512]

There's one of the downsides of the wet alternator up front on the new bikes.  No way to get a wrench on the crank nut and rotate the engine while you LOOK into the plug hole for TDC.

[greer]

This will come in handy for new owners, thanks!

Sarah

[Chuck in Indiana]

The cylinder head nuts were adequately tight, but I re-torqued them anyway (cold), to 42 Nm (center nuts), 25 Nm (bottom nuts) and 28 Nm (top nut).  After re-torqueing these,

Have they changed the torque specs for the new small blocks?

[sib]

Have they changed the torque specs for the new small blocks?

Not sure what you mean by "new".  The engines on the '13 V7 and '16 V7II are identical.  My torque values come from the workshop manuals.  Earlier (e.g., 2TB) engines might have different torque specs, but I haven't checked.  [UPDATE:  THE BOTTOM TWO NUTS SHOULD BE TIGHTENED TO 42 Nm, NOT 25 Nm.  SEE LATER POSTS ON THIS THREAD.]

[Vasco DG]

Have they changed the torque specs for the new small blocks?

Best of my knowledge no, I can see no reason to change anything. AFAIK it was still something like 30-32 ft/lbs for the big ones and 22 for the top stud. ???

Pete

[sib]

Best of my knowledge no, I can see no reason to change anything. AFAIK it was still something like 30-32 ft/lbs for the big ones and 22 for the top stud. ???

Pete

Here's an example of where Pete's vast experience and good memory trump what the manuals say.  Going back to earlier manuals for bikes with nearly identical engines, the specs are ~30-31 ft/lbs (~42 Nm) for ALL FOUR of the M10 nuts and ~22 ft/lbs (~28 Nm) for the one M8 nut.  I think that the newer manuals show the pre-tightening torque (25 Nm) but mistakenly omit the final value (42 Nm) for the lower two M10 nuts.   Many thanks for the correction, Pete.  I've gone back and edited my original post.

It's ironic that Moto Guzzi would flub the printed torque specs for the cylinder head nuts, the only place where it might actually be important to use a torque wrench.

Sam

[Chuck in Indiana]

Not sure what you mean by "new".  The engines on the '13 V7 and '16 V7II are identical.  My torque values come from the workshop manuals.  Earlier (e.g., 2TB) engines might have different torque specs, but I haven't checked.  [UPDATE:  THE BOTTOM TWO NUTS SHOULD BE TIGHTENED TO 42 Nm, NOT 25 Nm.  SEE LATER POSTS ON THIS THREAD.]

 ;D

[Kev m]

Didn't we recently discuss why it is dangerous to blindly accept Guzzi (and frankly many EU built vehicle) tech information? Ironically before the last two posts I was preparing this excerpt from the 1TB Engine Manual to show what SIB was talking about. I noted that it did indeed look like it had changed from the 2TB V7 Classic manual that just said:

Heads - cylinder to crankcase fixing nut (M10) 40-42 Nm (29.50-30.97 lbf ft)
Heads - cylinder to crankcase fixing nut (M8) 28-30 Nm (20.65-22.12 lbf ft)

But Sib seems to have figured it out and I bet he is correct. The 1TB service manual shows all 4 of the main head studs are M10, and the upper M10x1.5 n nuts are first pre-tightened to 25 Nm and then final torqued to 42 Nm. Though it doesn't specifically say the "Column" nuts are also M10x1.5, one would expect they probably are and that the studs are the same thread (just different lengths).

So I suspect he is right that they simply left out the final tightening number for the 2 lower "Column" nuts.

Here's the diagram and specs from the 1TB manual

[guzzisteve]

Just like w/they changed the valve gap spec to .004" & .006" in 06 or 07, too tight.
I had to reset every new SB that we sold before it went out. Their engineers weren't even born yet w/they had problems with tight specs in the late 70's.

[kris]

Dumb question, but is tightening the heads part of the first service procedure?  I have a 2014 Norge (I know, different motor) and the manual says nothing about re-torquing the head bolts, just curious as I'm getting ready to do my first service.

[Kev m]

Dumb question, but is tightening the heads part of the first service procedure?  I have a 2014 Norge (I know, different motor) and the manual says nothing about re-torquing the head bolts, just curious as I'm getting ready to do my first service.

Retightening the cylinder heads was once a regular thing (decades ago). It's long not been a part of 99% of most motors, including the Guzzi big blocks, but somehow persists as a supposed need for the first service on Guzzi smallblocks.

So no, your Norge didn't need it...

[kris]

Thanks!  Kept me from having to research!

[Vasco DG]

The 8V uses metal composite gaskets both on the base and head seals. Torque once on assembly, never touch again until you take them apart. Smallblocks still use a Kingerlite, monotorque gasket which, despite its descriptor, in this application needs re-torquing.

Pete

PS, Sam, I actually have a memory like a bloody goldfish for most things! It's weird, annoying shit like torque specs that tend to stick in my feeble grey matter! :D

[yourfavorite]

Hey sib (and others), I'm hoping you can help me with some advice on this subject.

I'm going to purchase a V7II this weekend and eventually will need to do the initial service. I've never done anything like this before but I'm a fairly smart guy and figure the main things I lack here are experience and probably some tools. Is this type of first service something you think the average intelligent human can handle or is it best left to someone with loads of experience?

I should add that I have a lot of determination and really would like to be able to do this sort of stuff on my own. For context I've been riding vintage vespas for the past 10 years and have done simple stuff like plugs, fuel adjustments, cables, etc. All the simple stuff. Helped friends do more major work but nothing on my own.

Also, what tools would one need to do it? I have your standard wrenches and what not but not much beyond that. Not even a wrench that can measure torque, so between this weekend and 700 miles I'd like to build out my toolbox to handle this sort of work.

Thanks and please forgive the noob-ness

[Kev m]

YourFav, yes I suspect you (or any interested, intelligent, slightly mechanically inclined person) can do something as simple as the first or other basic services on their Guzzi.

It might be nice the first time to have someone help or check your work, just to make sure you didn't miss something (especially if something wasn't set up properly from the factory, like the clutch cable routing or adjustment, or throttle cable adjustment, or loose fasteners). Though in theory a decent dealer would address those at set-up.

As for the service itself most of it are simple oil changes and inspections. The cylinder head retorque is a one time thing and simple, but I would hope you have used a torque wrench before and are familiar with it.

Maybe the most complicated (and still far from rocket science) task is valve adjustment. It simply takes a little attention to make sure the cylinder is on TDC compression and a little feel for the gauges. Again, not advanced stuff, but you should pay attention to details if it is your first time.

[pyoungbl]

Kev, I agree with most of what you posted.  Since the V7II has a wet alternator it's a bit more of a PITA to rotate the engine, having help will make that much easier since one would need to put the bike in 6th gear and rotate the rear wheel to spin the engine.  OP will also need a torque wrench to torque the heads, not rocket science but still a new skill.  Finally, changing the oil might be a surprise for OP since the filter is not a spin-on type and there are two sump drain plugs. 

Here's one attempt at a maintenance manual for the V7:  https://sites.google.com/site/threewheelguzzi/home/maintenance?pli=1

Peter Y.

[sign216]

Peter Y's site is great.  I'm adding my link for torquing the head;  https://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/sets/72157627672086548

[yourfavorite]

Thanks everyone!

For Vespa maintenance I've found a ton of useful sites with photos and descriptions as well as youtube videos. Any resources like this for work on a V7?

[Kev m]

Videos? Maybe, I've never looked for any so I can't say, but I doubt there would be as much as for something as more common as a Vespa.

I think Sign's photo essays of service for his V7C are probably the most thorough source you'll find to support the factory literature for recent smallbkocks.

Peter, good point on the wet alternator, that makes it a little harder to find TDC if you don't have a centerstand or other way to lift/spin the rear wheel.

I think the cheapest solution then would be a wheel jockey/spinner from a place like CycleGear. If memory serves they sell a large one (basically a jig with two rollers on it that fits under the rear wheel so you can spin it, really designed more to help with cleaning and lubricating final drive chains on bikes with them but no centerstands, but it would work for this purpose too). I'm thinking it was only $25 or so.

I've got a more expensive one from Aerostich that is super compact so you can take it with you on trips (bought that for the chain on the Duc) and the rear wheel drop out on my lift has a roller plate attachment too. But I'd still miss the ease and precision of spinning the crankshaft with the nut.

[organfixsing]

Sib, I think that the -9 in the plug specification may refer to 0.9mm. I looked at one of mine today and it was about 0.9mm.
Cheers

Brian

[sib]

Sib, I think that the -9 in the plug specification may refer to 0.9mm. I looked at one of mine today and it was about 0.9mm.
Cheers

Brian

Bingo!  That's exactly what this NGK spec sheet shows:  http://www.ngk.com/product.aspx?zpid=9641  Thanks!
Now I suspect that the prescribed 0.6-0.7 mm gap is another example of an error in the workshop and owner's manuals.  I've noticed and reported previously that my '13 V7 Stone runs a lot better at 0.9 mm than at 0.6-0.7 mm gaps.

[sign216]

I think Sign's photo essays of service for his V7C are probably the most thorough source you'll find to support the factory literature for recent smallbkocks.

Kev, thanks for the kind words.  I'm emotionally shallow, so a compliment goes a long way (smirk).  Here's a link to my other albums:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/sign216/sets

Peter, great work on the maintenance guide!  I added it as a link to the Yahoo group so that others can reference it.  It's hard to find stuff geared towards the new post-2013 engine.  Your guide may be the only one out there.  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MG_750/info

[Darmie]

Good afternoon. I find it interesting that I keep researching the first 600mile maintenance, but I want to ensure I have a good idea about it and I do it correctly. I own a 2016 V II Stone. I now understand that the bottom two column nuts as they are called should have a final torque of 42Nm.  Two things if I may; 1 do you loosen up the 5 bolts prior to the torquing procedure? 2, do you do a pre snug, say 10ftlb of anything if you loosen up the bolts?

As of yesterday, I had managed to put on nearly 700 mi, overdue for the initial service.

The cylinder head nuts were adequately tight, but I re-torqued them anyway (cold), to 42 Nm (center nuts), 25 Nm (bottom nuts) and 28 Nm (top nut).  After re-torqueing these, I measured the valve gaps, which were tight (~0.10 mm intake, ~0.15 mm exhaust).  I adjusted them to spec 0.15 mm intake and 0.20 mm exhaust. [UPDATE:  THE BOTTOM TWO NUTS SHOULD BE TIGHTENED TO 42 Nm, NOT 25 Nm.  SEE LATER POSTS ON THIS THREAD.] 


 I didn�t even get dirty doing it!

[kenvil1]

I've used a Snapjack successfully to lube my chain, but I'm not sure if it will work with the V7 driveshaft. In a pinch, it allows you to spin the rear wheel if you have neither a center stand or a paddock

http://thesnapjack.com