NGC- Drones interfering with fire fighting planes

[Chuck in Indiana]

Some of them already do.  We found out the hard way when using one on the test range (it had a laser target on int).  At 2000ft AGL it turned itself off.  Great bit of wreckage.  Glad it was a funded program cause it cost us $5k to learn that lesson.  We did talk to the mfg and they made a simple change that it would just not climb any more than 2000ft AGL.  Turned out we were the first customers to hit that altitude.

Yes, some of us have been 'buzzed' by the things.  They have some good uses, but, they can also be used inappropriately/illegally.

I normally fly from 800 to 1000 feet AGL. Hitting a drone at 130 could be a disaster. A friend hit a big bird this spring right over my runway and did serious damage to his airplane. If I see a drone over my place, I'll find a use for that Marlin Goose gun that I inherited. I (and you) own the airspace over your property.

[charlie b]

Correct.

Right now the FAA has defined the difference between model drones and drone aircraft, along with flight restrictions of each.  Models still have a visual sight control only and altitude limit.  Even the ones with onboard cameras are "supposed" to obey.

The problem is enforcement and penalties.  For full size aircraft it was easier, pilot's ticket gets revoked.  These little things you get what, your toy confiscated?  So what.  Go out and buy another.

The aircraft drones regs are being worked.  This is a huge deal and the FAA is working with other govt agencies to figure out airspace controls.  Most mfgs who are serious about this are coordinating flights with the FAA/military.

Civil laws.  Hey, if I can be sued cause my smoke goes into the neighbors yard, then drones are easy.  The privacy issues are more of a problem.  But, given the number of video devices out there these days people may have a different attitude about them.  Don't know.

I probably would not care if one was over my house, as long as there was some safety.  And if it became a nuisance, like buzzing the place all the time, then there would be an issue to work out with the pilot/drone.

FWIW, model aircraft are dangerous.  Even the slower stuff.  A 50lb aircraft flying at 50mph will kill you.  The 'good' part is that 99% of these are flown at established flying fields, not in a housing area.  The smaller stuff can be flown in some parks (different cities have different rules, including some that ban them entirely).  Current rule is 2lb and 50mph.  And both are limited to 300ft altitude (AGL).

Again, what is the penalty IF someone is caught violating those rules.  Right now not much.  The biggest issue is liability if you injure someone.  There have been some pretty big settlements when someone was seriously hurt/killed.

[Gliderjohn]

And now we have the pistol firing drone:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4364111621001/video-of-gun-firing-drone-spawns-federal-investigation/#sp=show-clips

GliderJohn

[MGPilot]

As a pilot who has already had a close call with a drone, I have serious concerns about the lack of experience, lack of judgment and ill-intent of drone operators.

While the FAA is justifiably against sharpening your skeet shooting skills, it seems that a high burst of water and or the ability to tie up the rotors with a net or mass of threads would be ways to bring them down without associated harm to people on the ground.

I would like to see any drone that can fly more than 200' from a transmitter:
 - be officially registered to the owner by the seller as part of the transaction
 - with serial/registration numbers a necessary part of the transmission protocol used by the transmitters to control the drones
 - the ability to (inexpensively) interrogate a drone and have it respond with its serial number/registration number
 - and heavy fines for altering the serial/registration number protocol.

They're here to stay. But right now it's a wild west. Even with these changes, it will take time to build the rules, regulations, consequences and enforcement....adde d to the tax burden of the general population rather than the drone community.

I think they will be helpful in law enforcement, SAR, farmers/ranchers and other situations.  Near some airports, you might even be able to program them to stay out of the airspace while adding a sensor to pick up laser light and have them pursue and identify some of the dimwits shining lasers into the cockpits of commercial aircraft.

But it's going to get worse before it gets better.

[canuguzzi]

As a pilot who has already had a close call with a drone, I have serious concerns about the lack of experience, lack of judgment and ill-intent of drone operators.

While the FAA is justifiably against sharpening your skeet shooting skills, it seems that a high burst of water and or the ability to tie up the rotors with a net or mass of threads would be ways to bring them down without associated harm to people on the ground.

I would like to see any drone that can fly more than 200' from a transmitter:
 - be officially registered to the owner by the seller as part of the transaction
 - with serial/registration numbers a necessary part of the transmission protocol used by the transmitters to control the drones
 - the ability to (inexpensively) interrogate a drone and have it respond with its serial number/registration number
 - and heavy fines for altering the serial/registration number protocol.

They're here to stay. But right now it's a wild west. Even with these changes, it will take time to build the rules, regulations, consequences and enforcement....adde d to the tax burden of the general population rather than the drone community.

I think they will be helpful in law enforcement, SAR, farmers/ranchers and other situations.  Near some airports, you might even be able to program them to stay out of the airspace while adding a sensor to pick up laser light and have them pursue and identify some of the dimwits shining lasers into the cockpits of commercial aircraft.

But it's going to get worse before it gets better.

If we could only get all that for the sleds. I worry far more about the cars driven by texting drivers, those oblivious to their surroundings and the heehaws driving jacked up pickups that for some reason have to sound like a diesel tractor and think intimidation is a driving skill.

[Mark West]

They should all have self-destruct systems installed that can be activated by emergency personnel. Drone destroyed, no pics or video to salvage. That ought to get people to think twice.

Flying those planes is plenty dangerous enough without the damn drones flying around.

[Penderic]

Firefighters knock drone out of sky....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEsieFoe-ns   

[Waterbottle]

They should all have self-destruct systems installed that can be activated by emergency personnel. Drone destroyed, no pics or video to salvage. That ought to get people to think twice.

Flying those planes is plenty dangerous enough without the damn drones flying around.

Or maybe a Signal jammer ?  I have no clue how these little Beasties are controlled but a strong signal transmitted on the same or very close frequency might cause it to fold it's wings up ( Die ) 

[Lannis]

Or maybe a Signal jammer ?  I have no clue how these little Beasties are controlled but a strong signal transmitted on the same or very close frequency might cause it to fold it's wings up ( Die ) 

That's never going to work, long term.

The only solution is to make the behavior hurt so badly for the douchebag drone owner/operators that it'll become a rare occurence ....

Lannis

[tiger_one]

We are supposed to stay below 400 feet altitude in most places, could be lower in others depending on area.  I fly mine just in my yard when I fly which has not been much lately.  Full charge only last about 12-15 minutes, and 2 or 3 batteries and I am tired.

I'm not good enough to fly in RED mode, where the computer will allow flips and rolls, but also let you crash if you can't keep up.  I stay in Blue mode mostly, easier to hold altitude and just cruise around dodging trees which I have a lot of on my 2 acres.

Flying with the goggles is pretty fun but stressful, and you need a spotter to help with backing into fences or trees which you cannot see with the camera facing forward only.

On the signals, they use a changing freq, not sure how it works.  These things, well mine, is pretty basic and simple, a gopro will put it at max weight and reduce the flying time to about 7 minutes as will a strong wind (no fun anyway in wind).

I'm ex ATC so I know the rules, and airways, but I'm also not near any airports (over 25 miles from Barksdale).  There should be a class or license to pass before someone gets these birds, especially if you live in town. 

[charlie b]

The control freq is the same basic band as cell phones and the same freq hopping scheme.  In order to 'jam' one you'd have to use a cell jammer, which a lot of people would not like, including the emergency services folks.

But, the video downlink frequency is usually in the 5GHz or 8GHz (IIRC).  Not sure if those freq are shared with anyone.  Most of those have on board recording so jamming the video feed just means the pilot will have no feedback.  If he is operating within visual range this will just be a minor inconvenience, it won't cause the thing to come down.

As to registering and all the rest.  There are millions of these things already out there.  From the palm size to 6ft or more in dia.  The control boards are a commonly made element (not just for drones) and are sourced in China (isn't everything?).

Kinda like trying to make all lasers registered at this point.

I do love the video of the fireman taking out the drone...BUT....that drone owner just got his wish.  A viral video and bragging rights around the world.  So, now he will go out and buy another in order to do the same thing again.  What needed to happen is a that video taken to a judge and he be sent to jail as well as forfeit any money made from that video to give to the firefighters widow fund.  But, will that happen?  No.  Cause it was just poor Johnny just doing what boys do.

[johnr]

This news item appeared on my home page today. It pertains. (This is in NZ)


Strict drone rules for aerial enthusiasts
The Civil Aviation Authority has unveiled tough regulations to ensure the safety of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

23 July 2015
Drone owners will need to request permission to take-off every time they want to fly them outside their own property under strict rules unveiled by the Civil Aviation Authority.

Unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) will not be permitted to take to the sky without owner permission of the land they will fly over, and the people in that area.

This means if an aerial enthusiast wanted to fly their UAV in a local park, they'd need the permission of the council and every person at the park before taking off.

However UAV owners can avoid the rule changes with a CAA operating certificate, but it's unclear how much that will cost and long it will take to be approved.

"Having a conversation with a property owner beforehand is an effective means of risk management because they are likely to have the best knowledge of the risks," CAA general manager Steve Moore said on Thursday.

"These changes address the safety risks that modern unmanned aircraft pose to other airspace users as well as people and property on the ground."

Other new regulations include operators to present a safety plan to the CAA if they want to fly their drones outside the existing rules.

New Zealand's Air Navigation Service Airways and ACT leader David Seymour both commended the changes after there was a reported 53 incidents involving UAVs in the first six months of 2015, nearly double the 2014 total.

But operators are less thrilled.

Aerial photographer Tim Whittaker said the new laws would be very difficult to police.

"It is basically going to give the authority to prosecute if people get stupid," he told NZN.

The new regulations come in effect on August 1.


NZN

[Lannis]

This news item appeared on my home page today. It pertains. (This is in NZ)


Strict drone rules for aerial enthusiasts
The Civil Aviation Authority has unveiled tough regulations to ensure the safety of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

23 July 2015
Drone owners will need to request permission to take-off every time they want to fly them outside their own property under strict rules unveiled by the Civil Aviation Authority.

Unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) will not be permitted to take to the sky without owner permission of the land they will fly over, and the people in that area.

Sounds like a good rule to me.   Nobody's got a right to fly anything anywhere they want, any more than they have a right to ride their ATV anywhere they want anytime regardless of permission ....

Lannis

[Kentktk]

Apparently attitudes are changing VERY quickly with the times, I'm glad to say.

Was only a few months ago when someone posted a sort of "Drones Are Coming And There's Nothing You Can Do About It" thread, upon which my posts became heavy with #6 shot, full chokes, and 32" barrels.

I was damned up street and down alley for being a superstitious, hopeless vandal, fighting a Luddite rearguard action against progressiveness and technology ....

And now look!   Turns out I was in the vanguard.   I'll still shoot any one of them that comes into range over my property, and will debate about the propriety of spying only while standing next to the scattered remains .....

Lannis

Have fun, you will be dragged into court and end up paying to buy him a new just like the one with the scattered remains you so proudly stood next too!

[tris]

This news item appeared on my home page today. It pertains. (This is in NZ)


Strict drone rules for aerial enthusiasts
The Civil Aviation Authority has unveiled tough regulations to ensure the safety of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

23 July 2015
Drone owners will need to request permission to take-off every time they want to fly them outside their own property under strict rules unveiled by the Civil Aviation Authority.

Unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) will not be permitted to take to the sky without owner permission of the land they will fly over, and the people in that area.

This means if an aerial enthusiast wanted to fly their UAV in a local park, they'd need the permission of the council and every person at the park before taking off.

However UAV owners can avoid the rule changes with a CAA operating certificate, but it's unclear how much that will cost and long it will take to be approved.

"Having a conversation with a property owner beforehand is an effective means of risk management because they are likely to have the best knowledge of the risks," CAA general manager Steve Moore said on Thursday.

"These changes address the safety risks that modern unmanned aircraft pose to other airspace users as well as people and property on the ground."

Other new regulations include operators to present a safety plan to the CAA if they want to fly their drones outside the existing rules.

New Zealand's Air Navigation Service Airways and ACT leader David Seymour both commended the changes after there was a reported 53 incidents involving UAVs in the first six months of 2015, nearly double the 2014 total.

But operators are less thrilled.

Aerial photographer Tim Whittaker said the new laws would be very difficult to police.

"It is basically going to give the authority to prosecute if people get stupid," he told NZN.

The new regulations come in effect on August 1.


NZN

We have similar rules in the UK but it doesn't stop people flying them inappropriately

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-33612631

Sadly I don't think "rules" are sufficient.

[Penderic]

[tiger_one]

Yeah, we have laws on littering, has no effect at all. The ditches are full of trash everywhere!

My pet gripe, really ruins a hunt, when the woods should be pristine.  Bring out what you take in, leave nothing.  Sad, but not many people adhere to those rules.

[Lannis]

Yeah, we have laws on littering, has no effect at all. The ditches are full of trash everywhere!

My pet gripe, really ruins a hunt, when the woods should be pristine.  Bring out what you take in, leave nothing.  Sad, but not many people adhere to those rules.

Like anything else, the laws need to be tough enough to make it painful for people who break them.    We're finally getting there, for example, on drunk driving - law used to provide a slap on the wrist, now it's serious jail time, and the incidence is way down from what it was 40 years ago.   

Around here, people used to just dump their trash on the side of the road in a convenient gully, up to the time I was a teenager.   One gully was a mile from the nearest house on a road that probably saw 10 cars a day, and it was really bad.

But they made it illegal, toughened up enforcement, and (more importantly) it's now socially unacceptable, so that only criminals do it, so it's way better than it used to be.

It'll be same with drones, oh ha ha ha, what a card that young Josh is, he flew his drone over to the airport and a bunch of scaredy-cats are looking for him now, but it's just a toy, there he is flying it over the power substation, oh ho ho ho .... Time and the law will NOT be on these idiots' side ...

Lannis

[tiger_one]

Yeah, hopefully we get educated slowly but surely.  I was following a trucker and got off I-20 at same exit (I was on the Griso), he tossed a bag of trash out as he made the turn.  I followed him to I reckon his house, the went on and called the local police to report.

The were nice but couldn't care less even tho I was an eye witness and had a license number of the trucker.  Country folks stick together it seems in these little outlying areas.

I don't frequent the Quad boards anymore as I have learned all I need to know about the model I have but even couple of years ago, they were raising cane with people that were posting videos of shooting up in the air over cities and such.  There are lots of responsible flyers that wish we could rein in the stupids, but seems they outnumber us.

[Wayne Orwig]

Or maybe a Signal jammer ?  I have no clue how these little Beasties are controlled but a strong signal transmitted on the same or very close frequency might cause it to fold it's wings up ( Die ) 

As far as I know they operate at 2.4 or 5GHz. Outside of the restricted bands for radio, TV and cell phones.
The issue is that every time a 'jammer' starts to get used, they tend to censor people. The FCC basically has ruled NO to jammers. Recently some hotels had put in jammers to force people to use the hotels commercial WiFi. The FCC ruled against that HARD. You allow the government to jam videos from drones, that is easily censorship. I know this is more a safety thing then a censorship thing, but the FCC just does not want to go there.

[Penderic]

I wonder if drones could play Pied Piper or sheppard drones to control swarms of bad insects or birds from farmer fields and transportation corridors?

http://kfor.com/2015/07/22/massive-swarm-of-grasshoppers-and-beetles-picked-up-by-radar-headed-to-oklahoma/

Bugs coming! Ride with mouth closed advisory in effect. 

[tiger_one]

If it could be done in 15 minutes, maybe, but then you would be changing batteries again.

[Lannis]

Now drones are interfering with Life-Flight helicopters.   Ghouls trying to get a shot of blood and gore.

Roanoke, VA - Two close calls prompted the Carilion Clinic Life-Guard team to hold a media event in Roanoke.  Helicopter pilots pleaded with drone operators to stay out of landing zones.

Drones ended up in Life-Guard helicopter landing zones on two separate occasions in the last six months.

A Life-Guard 10 pilot says drones pose a major mid-air threat.

"It could hit a rotor blade and definitely take it out of the air.  It could hit the tail rotor,” said Life-Guard 10 Pilot Bob Bolton.  “It could hit the front windscreen and come right through the windscreen and incapacitate the pilot."

         

One of the recent close calls happened on an accident scene in daylight.  The other was at night near a hospital helipad.

The problem is that the helicopter pilots are "pleading" with the drone operators, who are the outdoor equivalent of a troll operating out of his mother's dark sweaty basement bedroom.   They'd love it if they downed a chopper.

The drones should be destroyed and the operators horsewhipped on the spot .... I find one near me, you'll get to read about it in the news, and I'll find out if my lawyer's really any good ...

Lannis

[BRIO]

http://youtu.be/cTJKXYx-jfo

[Chuck in Indiana]

http://youtu.be/cTJKXYx-jfo

<sigh> *Something* needs to be done. Now.

[O]

Watch the original version here until the end.  That video is a fake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuQUuE0DdfA

[Sasquatch Jim]

  Humans are not the only ones offended by drones.  Drone should not monkey around like this.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDbyl_Q5-oE
 

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr-xBtVU4lg

[BRIO]

Watch the original version here until the end.  That video is a fake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuQUuE0DdfA

Aaah...
Got to admit I saw it on Facebook previously and didn't investigate further...

[Chuck in Indiana]

Oh, it was fake? Whew! I'm glad of that, but it's only a matter of time..

[O]

You're probably right, but I sure hope not.  I fly Southwest quite a bit...