Differences between SP1000 and 850 T3/4/5?

[perter]

Hi guys
I'm not yet a Guzzi owner but is lookiing for some of the classic late 70'ies to mid 80’es models.

I lean towards either a SP1000 or a 850T3 or T4 or maybe a 1000 V5 but was is really the difference between these models beside a few ccm? Looking at available data they produce almost the same HP anf physical share a lot.

Is some more sporty and some more touring than the other? Or are they just all good touring machines wit mid range power and limited top? I will mainly use it single rider but the cramped peg positions on a LM do not fit my 34 inseam well so something more upright in riding position is needed.

Any advise appreciated

[Orange Guzzi]

Just buy an SP and get it over with. You will appreciate the extra CC's.  Parts are interchangeable from the V7 sport all the way thru the 2012 Tonti framed bikes. 

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

The T5 has 16" wheels and is a pretty ugly duckling

the 'T3/4' are 850 motors vs the Sp with a 1000cc

The T bikes are naked and the SP's have fairings

All these bikes share the Tonti frame.. May be some slight variations in tank mounts & steering neck height

Don't know much about the T4, just minor upgrades over the T3... Electronic ignition vs points??

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

There is a great build thread called 'Guzzi T5, will it ever be cool?' Over on Advrider in the Some Assembly required thread... Don't think it has been finished yet but contains a lot of pics/discussion on the T5 & lots of compatibility issues between T5 & other Tonti bikes.

I'd post a link but I just caught a 1 week ban over there so I can't access

[Moto]

A T3 has a top speed of 116 mph (per a reliable, contemporary test) and, like all Guzzis, produces more power in higher rev ranges. Though not as fast, a T3 is a lot like a LeMans with a more upright seating position and steel rather than plastic bodywork. It has the sportier, lower steering head like the LeMans, and works well with lower bars. It can also do about 300 miles on its 24 liter gas tank

The G5 is very much like a T3, but with another 100cc, boxey instruments, and a thicker, less comely but more comfy seat. The SP has a good touring fairing, if your legs fit comfortably behind it.

The T4 wasn't imported to the US, has cast instead of spoked wheels, a small fairing, and Nickasil-coated cylinders instead of chrome.

If you find a T3, determine whether it still has chromed cylinders, replace them if it does.

[Chuck in Indiana]

^^^^^ Nothing else to see here, folks.. move along. 
Nice summation, Moto.

[guzzista]

I thought the T4 is a SP minus the lower fairings and 850 displacement. T4 was not imported to USA AFAIK

[LeRoy]

One consideration to mention regarding the 1000SP is your inseam length. You are likely to find that your knees contact the rear end of the lower fairing on an SP. This will make prolonged riding uncomfortable. It would be best to try sitting on one if you can find an example nearby you in Denmark. Apart from that issue of fitting the bike, the SP has the best fairing for rider protection and smooth sailing over long distances.

Both the V1000 G5 and SP have the larger engine with, very importantly, iron cylinder bores. These will last for huge mileages with little wear.

The 850 models use chrome-plated aluminum bores. These are prone to flaking and, if so, the chrome flakes will circulate in the oil and quickly ruin the engine. There is an easy solution, but it's not cheap: replacement cylinders and pistons from Gillardoni or new iron cylinder liners (and compatible pistons/rings) made up and pressed into properly machined bores. What this means is that the 850 models have a potential $750-1000 liability built-in and it really must be attended to.

I'd lean to a V1000 G5 or 1000SP although these are rather less common than the 850 models.

[charlie b]

So, this is a modified T5.  The std US version had a butt ugly little bikini fairing.  If you get the little windscreen that goes with it, the air will be moved off the chest, but, just barely.  I tried an LMII fairing (baby brother to the SP fairing) and it also did well moving the air off the chest and off the hands.  If you like minimal fairings it works.  I like more substatial fairings so I found an SPIII fairing and cut off the bottom halfs of the lowers.  Works well for me.

Only the earlier 850's had chrome bores.  Don't know when they changed but the T5 has the good stuff.

If I were getting one I'd get an SP or SPIII.



PS I found some data that indicates the factory did put SPIII fairings on some T5 police bikes in Europe.

[charlie b]

PS yes, that bike has 16" wheels front and back.  And no steering damper.  Only issue I've ever had is with really squared off rear tire.  Then it kinda 'wobbles' in higher speed sweepers (not the front wheel, rear end just moves around).  But, if you put a lot of load behind the rear axle it does unload the front with typical results.  I just don't do that :)

[perter]

Thanks a lot Guys for all your replies. I know it's a bit like asking what color you like most but still some good information to me.

I was not aware about the chrome plating of the 850's so thanks for sharing that. As for the physcial difference, I'm aware of the different fairings and also the potential issue touching the lower SP fairing with your knees.

So far I have only ridden a LM2 with an aftermarket fairing. It was a bit painful, since it was equipped with rear controls moving my feet too much back and up for me. And the owner was too cheap to fill it with new gas so the carb filters were blocked after 1km..... Cleaned them 3 times before I got back. And the engine was sweating oil almost anywhere possible.....

I think my preference is a SP1000 or this preserved 850T4 in the local version of Craigslist here in Denmark. Hope to get a test ride soon - 43k km and asking ~5.5 k USD


 An intersting alternative is also a former Italian Police bike 850T5 in northern Germany with 18" Wheels..... at least it looks different.... 78k km but not ridden since 07, asking ~2.2k USD but then I need to pay registration fee in Denmark of another 1 k USD

[Gliderjohn]

There is also the option of just running the upper half of the SP fairing if it is too cramped with the lowers. That is what I did on my T-3 due to having floorboards. Great upper protection, no leg protection however. Doesn't look bad either.

GliderJohn

[perter]

I'm a happy Guzzi owner now since 2 days 

I picked up a stripped down SP1000. Seller was a young toolmaker who has spent last winter turning a classic SP1000 into a nice "cafe racer/scrambler" lookalike. He may though have spent the nights with something else since his wife was expecting in 3wks and they have just bought a house. Bottom line, he need money and I need a Guzzy so we made a deal we were both happy about. It has never been opened in the engine and the odometer showed 57k km. Fenders, frame & wheels powder coated, new shocks, tires, handlebar, custom seat, speedometer etc plus all the original stash in good condition if I would turn it back to a tourer one day.

A snapshot of my new ride:

[Petrus Rocks]

Nice!  I like them stripped down too.  If it was my bike I would change the tires to something more road oriented but depends where you're riding it and how hard you're riding.  Enjoy!

[perter]

Thanks Petrus, yes I have the same considerations, they are not my preferred tire either. I'm not planning to ride it too hard and live in the country side, so I'll try them out at least for the rest of the season and see how it goes. They are actually better than they look

[Groover]

Congrats on the new bike. All models you mentioned were great choices, and looks like you've found the one. Is there a battery on the SP you purchased? If not, how are you starting it? Push?

[yackee]

While the SP1000's name seems to suggest that the bike has a 1000cc engine, as I recall (from when I had an SP 20 years ago), the displacement is actually 949cc. I have no idea how the educational system in Italy works, but when I took math in fourth grade, I was told that you round down and not up in cases like that.

[twhitaker]

Displacement is part of the qualification for racing so you don't want to get caught with extra ccs. With very few exceptions motorcycle manufacturers round up.

[perter]

Thanks Groover, I kick start it like my old Harley  ---- no, the battery is relocated below the gearbox, the seller has made a custom stainless box for it. Battery is a modern sealed type and smaller than standard but it turns the engine, especially when the clutch is disengaged. I'm though a bit concerned how it works out when the weather gets colder, we had 20-26c here in Denmark the last week (quite high for the time of the year) 5-10c may be an issue with this small battery... hmm but why worry about this now when sun is shining and the roads are waiting

[Guzzi_Don]

The 850 models use chrome-plated aluminum bores. These are prone to flaking and, if so, the chrome flakes will circulate in the oil and quickly ruin the engine. There is an easy solution, but it's not cheap: replacement cylinders and pistons from Gillardoni or new iron cylinder liners (and compatible pistons/rings) made up and pressed into properly machined bores. What this means is that the 850 models have a potential $750-1000 liability built-in and it really must be attended to.

I'd lean to a V1000 G5 or 1000SP although these are rather less common than the 850 models.

The T4 850 has alloy cylinders with the bores coated in nikasil where wear forever. I've had no trouble on my T4. My friends LM2 has nikasil bores as well. So Don't know when they changed from chrome bores to nikasil bores.

[Moto]

Per Mick Walker, the transition to Nickasil-coated was in late 1980 for the LeMans II (meaning earlier II's were chrome). T4's were Nickasil-coated from their introduction  in the same year. T3's were chrome throughout, Walker implies. [Moto Guzzi Buyer's Guide, 1992]

[jrt]

Neat.  Looks like a fun ride.  Are those square slide carbs?  I hope you have air filters on them- hard to see.  Also, looks like the PO changed the rear master cylinder to a more modern one. 
My concern is that the angle between the driveshaft and transmission is kind of steep.  If the bike sits down when you are on it, that's no big deal, but a steep angle on the cardan joint can't be good for it. 
Many happy miles-

[billgilbert]

Looks like this is one of the earlier SP's, with the same VHB carbs and aluminum coupling that my 850T has. This is a good thing. Probably last forever.

I was about to warn you about the later ones. My '83 SP-NT had PHF carbs with molded rubber elbow couplings to the heads which cracked and tore. Not available anymore, so I had to put in delrin substitutes, switch to K&N filters, revert to old breather can, quite a project. It was worth it, I love the bike and am about to ride it to the Ontario rally. It's a mile eater.

Have fun with it!
BG

[perter]

Thanks for all your comments and advise guys, really appreciate

Jrt: Yes, I do have airfilters on them, kind of K&N lookalikes. I've seen LMs without but there's too much dust in the countryside where I live to try this out. Especially now in the harvest season.

Yes, both master cylinders were changed by PO, he told me the new ones came from a Ducati. He also changed from integral brakes to "normal" brakes which I don't necessary think is an improvement, I've always though the integrated brakes was genious but never rode with them as this is my first Guzzi. I have both of the old cylinders in the stash box so I could change back in the winter if I want (and my wife allows me time for doing it  )

Good observation around the steep angle on the cardan. The picture is making it worse but the PO also adjusted the shocks to max length to get the "scrambler look" I think. I turned them back a little and the angle looks about 10-15degree below horisontal when I sit on the bike, I think that's okay?

Billgilbert, yes they have aluminium elbows. Looks very solid setup, don't think I will have any issues with false air intake like I constantly had with my Harley.

[nunzio]

Nice!!!!

Now it's time to ....

"Ride it like you stole it"!!!!!!

[perter]

Just want to follow up on my post, I have now ridden 3000km+ on the SP1000 I bought last autumn. Quite okay considering I got it at the end of the season last year and this year has been cold and wet until now.

Mods done:
New starter (the old one was shot)
Head guards
New right handlebar contact set (Guzzi, but from a newer model)
Tomaselli M-bar and LM1 gas handle
36mm PHF Carburettors from Ducati (M-type) and machined intake manifolds to accept the "female" end of the carbs and give a smooth transfer from 36mm to 34mm in the heads
K&N airfilters

The carb change happened during winter and has really boosted the performance of the engine. It revs way better and have remarkable more power. It also idles smooth almost right after a cold start but has been hard to start warm. Maybe the gas gets heated up due to the short distance between the hot cylinders and the carb?

Anyway, it puts a big smile on my face every time i ride it and the only regret I have is I didn't bought it sooner










This is a crash site for 2 RAF planes near my house. It's a nice place I like to go when I need to get perspective on life and remember who paid with their life for us to spoil the future...

Picture was taken May 5th, the day Denmark was liberated in 1945. There used to be red-white-blue flowers on the stones on that day but I may have been there too early... should bring some next time...

[Chuck in Indiana]

Very nice..

[oldbike54]

 Congratulations 

 Dusty

[Moto]

Thanks for your report! I appreciated the explanation of the monument, too. Good luck with your ride.