linked brakes?

[idahorider]

Does the LeMans 1 have linked brakes?
Paul Emerson

[Aaron D.]

Yes.

[Stevex]

But not difficult to de link...

[Arizona Wayne]

I like the linked brakes on my CX100(LM II).   Do you want to change them?  Just because they're different than you're used to?

[blackcat]

I used my CX as an everyday commuter for many years and I got use to using the foot brake and not the hand brake lever. Mistake.

[rodekyll]

You can use them exactly like unlinked brakes on pavement if you want to -- handbrake primary and footbrake to trim or add emphesis.  Or you can do the opposite -- footbrake for normal, already trimmed braking, and add handbrake as needed for more emphasis. 

People say linked brakes are dangerous and different.  They're not.  What's dangerous is thinking about them too much.  What's different is that the footbrake is umpteen times more powerful than a standard rear pedal because it's working both axles, leading some (as commented above) to get complacent and not use the handbrake.

Next time you're at a rally look at front brake pad wear on linked bikes -- the left pad is almost always worn down more.  In fact with linked brakes it's often possible to buy one pair of pads, put them in the right side, and rotate the right side pads to the left.

I offer via a lot of miles on Guzzis, that if 95% or better of your riding is done on solid pavement, linked brakes have all the advantage.  If you have a long, sloping, hardscrabble driveway, run the unpaved alphabets a lot or regularly encounter unimproved or damaged roads, unlinking may have an advantage.  There are times off-pavement when you need to drag the rear wheel while letting the front wheel spin free, and linked brakes can't do that.  That's the only linked brake tradeoff I can think of.

[Triple Jim]

I offer via a lot of miles on Guzzis, that if 95% or better of your riding is done on solid pavement, linked brakes have all the advantage.  If you have a long, sloping, hardscrabble driveway, run the unpaved alphabets a lot or regularly encounter unimproved or damaged roads, unlinking may have an advantage.  There are times off-pavement when you need to drag the rear wheel while letting the front wheel spin free, and linked brakes can't do that.  That's the only linked brake tradeoff I can think of.

Well put.  When I bought my Mille GT, I assumed I'd want to "unlink" the brakes, but gave them a try.  After using them for a while, I decided that they're really pretty well designed and for me, work very well.  Even when coming home, riding downhill on my gravel driveway, I've never had the brake pedal cause my front wheel to skid.

[Guzzistajohn]

I have two bikes with linked brakes and a triumph w/o. Never been a problem. You should keep all the controls covered all the time anyway. Like RK sez, downhill on gravel is the only issue........but not much of one. I think the designers at the factory knew what they were doing.

[pete mcgee]

Roadkyll has nailed it.
Linked brakes take very little to get used to.
The only time I have wanted to delink mine is when I'm on hilly dirt roads or tracks, an environment the designers weren't even contemplating when they designed the Lemans.
I have 200,000 miles on my mk3.
A different front master cylinder for the front brake would improve power and feel and braided brake lines all round make a huge improvemt on their own.
Put a couple of thousand miles on them and see how you feel.

[pat80flh]

After 20 years on a 4spd Shovel, then 3 seasons on a 76 R90, I would like to say I love the linked brakes on my Bassa.

[LowRyter]

It took one ride for me to know that linked brakes worked well on my EV. 

[kirby1923]

For me it depends on how you ride.

I have used linked brakes that were almost invisible(different brand) to a guy that uses the front exclusive on pavement. I found the guzzi system lacking.(understatement)

So Guzzi linked system is unacceptable for me.

Nothing wrong, just wrong for me.

my .02

[Arizona Wayne]

I use all my brakes most the time when riding a bike/scooter with a linked brake system. On a non-linked setup I mostly use just my front brake(s).

[Dukedesmo]

I realise some like linked brakes, I tried to like them but found the lack of front braking power from the RH lever too scary. After nearly 40 years of riding without linked brakes I just wasn't comfortable so I de-linked mine.

I can still get any benefit of linked brakes by using both front and rear together but I quite like to use the forwards weight transfer into a corner by using only the front brakes and the one front disc of the LM2 (when linked) just wasn't doing it for me.

Part of the reason may also be that my other bikes both have significantly more powerful front (but not rear) brakes and I want to keep a similar riding style/feel on the Guzzi as it is now second nature to me.

During the de-linking I also changed the caliper pistons (old ones were corroded), seals & pins and fitted new braided lines with a 15mm front master cylinder and 12mm rear and the braking is now very good for an old & heavy bike.

[Stevex]

Each to his own, personally I really do not like linked brakes...which is why I de linked mine.
I much prefer my braking using the 'normal' system with both front discs working together, and not having to use the rear brake unless I want to.
My LM2 has a PS15 front master cylinder feeding standard calipers via Goodridge hoses, biting on stainless discs with carbon ceramic pads. The rear has the same set up but with a PS12 mc.
Braking control, feedback, initial bite and overall braking are excellent and a definite improvement over standard, which is exactly what I was aiming for.

[Tom H]

Dukedesmo, Stevex,

What front calipers do you have? I'm thinking about de-linking my 04 Cali EVT and I have the 4 piston Brembo gold. I'm trying to figure out if I need a 15mm or 16mm master cylinder. On MG the 15mm was suggested, but I'm not clear for which calipers.

Why do I want to de-link: Two incidents. One was just about dumping the bike in a mall type parking lot at about 10mph or less in a bit of a panic type stop while I was still leaned over a bit from a turn. The other was when a car wanted to make a right turn in front of me. Did I mention I was in the right lane and he was in the left. Well I hit the rear brake and both wheels locked up. Fortunately this was at about 15-20mph and in a straight line.

I'm a bit afraid of a panic stop on the freeway in the wet at 60mph in a curve and the front dumping on me. If one brake is going lock I'd rather it be the rear.

The problem could be just muscle memory from riding drum brakes for the last 30+ years. I really want/wanted to like the linked brakes! For the most part they are fine.

Tom

[Dukedesmo]

I have the old P08 2 piston calipers and a 15mm master cylinder works fine.

For Brembo 4 piston calipers you'll be wanting bigger than 15mm, I would advise a 19mm - I use 19mm Brembo RCS on my Ducatis which have Brembo 4 pot calipers (albeit radial calipers, but the same 'size'). I like the RCS because you get 2 settings to alter the feel and they are a quality item.

In fact I'm using a 15 RCS on the Guzzi but needed the harder/faster setting or the lever comes back too far, on that basis a 16mm would probably be OK too.

[rodekyll]

As we discussed in a recent topic -- remember -- a radial master cyl needs to be a few mm larger than a horizontal pump due to the distance between the center of the piston and the pivot point of the lever.  In a conventional pump that distance is ~25mm - 27mm.  On a radial it's more like 17mm - 20mm.  That's what the "RCS" part of that fancy Brembo does -- change the pivot distance from 18mm to 20mm.  The ~15% difference in the pivot length = ~4mm more master cyl diameter.  So if you were happy with a 15mm conventional pump, a 19mm radial should be about right.

I like the radials for a number of reasons.  They take up less space on the handlebar because the piston is pointed away from the bar instead of lying alongside it.  They can be used neatly on fat bars for the same reason.  They are ambidextrous -- can be used either on the left or right bar because the reservoir is remote -- will always be right side up.  They're also available on ebay for under $100 complete and rebuild kits for the nissin type are common.

[Wayne Orwig]

Dukedesmo, Stevex,

What front calipers do you have? I'm thinking about de-linking my 04 Cali EVT and I have the 4 piston Brembo gold. I'm trying to figure out if I need a 15mm or 16mm master cylinder. On MG the 15mm was suggested, but I'm not clear for which calipers.

Why do I want to de-link: Two incidents. One was just about dumping the bike in a mall type parking lot at about 10mph or less in a bit of a panic type stop while I was still leaned over a bit from a turn. The other was when a car wanted to make a right turn in front of me. Did I mention I was in the right lane and he was in the left. Well I hit the rear brake and both wheels locked up. Fortunately this was at about 15-20mph and in a straight line.

I'm a bit afraid of a panic stop on the freeway in the wet at 60mph in a curve and the front dumping on me. If one brake is going lock I'd rather it be the rear.

The problem could be just muscle memory from riding drum brakes for the last 30+ years. I really want/wanted to like the linked brakes! For the most part they are fine.

Tom

Just try a different brake pad compound on the front to lessen the aggressiveness. Easy to try.
Also check and make sure the valve on the swingarm is operating properly.

[Tom H]

Thanks all for the info on the M/C size I should look for.

OMG, I feel the system is working fine. I did read about using a less aggressive LH pad. My bike has about 1" shorter shocks, so there should already be a little less front and more rear. For normal riding in the dry, I think it is a fine system especially for newer riders that don't want to use the front brake. I think it comes down to what I'm used to. 30+ years on drums is a lot of muscle memory

Tom

[lucky phil]

You can use them exactly like unlinked brakes on pavement if you want to -- handbrake primary and footbrake to trim or add emphesis.  Or you can do the opposite -- footbrake for normal, already trimmed braking, and add handbrake as needed for more emphasis. 

People say linked brakes are dangerous and different.  They're not.  What's dangerous is thinking about them too much.  What's different is that the footbrake is umpteen times more powerful than a standard rear pedal because it's working both axles, leading some (as commented above) to get complacent and not use the handbrake.

Next time you're at a rally look at front brake pad wear on linked bikes -- the left pad is almost always worn down more.  In fact with linked brakes it's often possible to buy one pair of pads, put them in the right side, and rotate the right side pads to the left.

I offer via a lot of miles on Guzzis, that if 95% or better of your riding is done on solid pavement, linked brakes have all the advantage.  If you have a long, sloping, hardscrabble driveway, run the unpaved alphabets a lot or regularly encounter unimproved or damaged roads, unlinking may have an advantage.  There are times off-pavement when you need to drag the rear wheel while letting the front wheel spin free, and linked brakes can't do that.  That's the only linked brake tradeoff I can think of.

Well if you're riding a sidecar or a cruiser/dedicated touring bike then yes. But on anything approaching a sports bike linked brakes are an abomination.
Ciao 

[Tom H]

I wanted to add one more thought on my feelings about liked brakes. Read my posts first.

Without starting an ABS/oil thread

If my bike had an ABS system that "worked as ABS should", then I would leave the linked system as is.

Muscle memory, again is most likely the problem. as well as the nano-seconds of time the brain has to tell each part of the body what to do when. Ever think about all the things that need to be done to stop a bike? Off throttle, hands are moving to the clutch and brake, foot is moving to the pedal. All may not be in that order. I think my brain says throttle, pedal, front brake, clutch. As I mentioned, if a brake is going to lock in a panic I'd rather it be the rear.

Again, thanks for the thoughts!
Tom

[charlie b]

I was one of those who used the front brake only for 99.99% of my riding.  So much so that on my first bike the rear drum would become sticky due to lack of use and corrosion.  15 yrs without bikes and then the Goose.

I learned that the foot pedal actually does something instead of just suggesting that the bike should slow a bit.  :)  I relearned braking habits, more easily cause it had been a long time since I rode.  The linked brakes have made me use the pedal and it works very well, on good pavement.

One of these days I will delink them.  Why?  Because of slippery conditions that I find myself in every now and then.  Greasy road, wet leaves, gravel on the road, etc, etc at a spot where I need to slow down a little.  And dirt.  Just does not do well so have to ride slower to compensate for lack of rear only brake.  What I do now is use a LOT of engine braking, but, it is not very smooth unless slipping the clutch a lot.

Yes, some of this is because I am not a really good rider.  Not a racer and not a ton of experience in the wet either.  Only a bit over 100k miles on bikes, mostly commuting.

[Triple Jim]

What I do now is use a LOT of engine braking, but, it is not very smooth unless slipping the clutch a lot.

Not telling you what to do, but I avoid engine braking because a clutch is not a fun thing to replace.  Brake pads are easy and cheap to replace.

[MGrego]

Speaking of linked brakes, I had a BMW that was linked opposite of my Guzzi -- the FRONT control activated both the front and rear brakes. I hardly ever used the foot control -

[charlie b]

Not telling you what to do, but I avoid engine braking because a clutch is not a fun thing to replace.  Brake pads are easy and cheap to replace.

Which is why I don't like to do it.  But, with linked brakes it is the only way to do the job.

[kirby1923]

Well if you're riding a sidecar or a cruiser/dedicated touring bike then yes. But on anything approaching a sports bike linked brakes are an abomination.
Ciao

Exactly!

[Moto]

Well if you're riding a sidecar or a cruiser/dedicated touring bike then yes. But on anything approaching a sports bike linked brakes are an abomination.
Ciao

This is nonsense. At least one national championship was won by Dr. John's linked-brake Guzzi racer. All three brakes were linked into a single system. (Oh, my!)

Moto

[kirby1923]

This is nonsense. At least one national championship was won by Dr. John's linked-brake Guzzi racer. All three brakes were linked into a single system. (Oh, my!)

Moto

There are linked systems that are suitable for sport bikes.
On the Honda system ('98 VFR) when you pull the front lever you get all the pistons on both front discs and just a wee bit of rear. If you hit the pedal you get all the rear pistons and one  set of pistons on one of the front discs, which for normal sport bike/track day riding is invisible/acceptable.

I'd bet that Dr. Johns system was like that, not like the stock system you find on the street Guzzis'
When your hanging off or in a trail braking situation no pushing on the pedal!

:-)

edit: Of course I'm talking riding at a brisk pace!?!

[Stevex]

This is nonsense. At least one national championship was won by Dr. John's linked-brake Guzzi racer. All three brakes were linked into a single system. (Oh, my!)

Moto

No...it's an opinion.