Ethanol free gas

[sib]

Maybe our skeptic should run a vehicle on straight alcohol. Then we'll see if he remains a skeptic.

You're stretching the argument beyond the breaking point.  Maybe someone should try to prove that water is nontoxic by immersing himself in the stuff for an hour.

[kingoffleece]

Where we live it's 4 season toys and power equipment.
Stop by any small engine repair shop and ask how many carbs are serviced due to ethanol and/or how many fuel lines are replaced.

Yes, I know your bike is injected.  They clog, too or get partially obstructed.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I'll pose my "usual" question: is it the ethanol that's causing the problems, or a different mix of additives used because ethanol is in the fuel? I believe it more the latter than the former: a toxic swill of additives is really responsible for most of the issues folks blame on ethanol.

That said, I would rather not have ethanol in my fuel, but have had zero problems running it in any of my vehicles or equipment. <shrug>

[sign216]

I'll pose my "usual" question: is it the ethanol that's causing the problems, or a different mix of additives used because ethanol is in the fuel? I believe it more the latter than the former: a toxic swill of additives is really responsible for most of the issues folks blame on ethanol.

That said, I would rather not have ethanol in my fuel, but have had zero problems running it in any of my vehicles or equipment. <shrug>

Fuel tank swelling is due to the ethanol in American fuel (Ducati, Guzzi, others), and it's also responsible for accelerated corrosion of zinc, aluminum, and certain organic (rubber, etc)  parts.  This is worsened by ethanol's hydroscopic tendancy to pull water from the atmosphere, and to decompose.

I can cite numerous academic papers, for example:  http://papers.sae.org/971648/

[ChuckH]

....I am living in West Washington State, where are the good places to get ethanol free gas?... Thanks for the help. 

 
You must be close to a marina or places where boaters buy the gas for their boats.  I just returned from Minnesota, where everyone has at least one boat, and found non-ethanol gas, generally 90 or 91 octane in many of the stations.  I bought gas for my reserve MSR containers at the marina in St Ignace, MI.

[Two Checks]

As I said you should run a vehicle on E100 for a while.

[sib]

As I said you should run a vehicle on E100 for a while.

I save that for martinis.

[Moto]

Fuel tank swelling is due to the ethanol in American fuel (Ducati, Guzzi, others), and it's also responsible for accelerated corrosion of zinc, aluminum, and certain organic (rubber, etc)  parts.  This is worsened by ethanol's hydroscopic tendancy to pull water from the atmosphere, and to decompose.

I can cite numerous academic papers, for example:  http://papers.sae.org/971648/

That paper is about corrosion. Can you cite one about tank swelling, and in particular the role of water that is "pulled" from the atmosphere by ethanol? Does water permeate the plastic, causing it to expand?

Moto

[Seamaster]

My intend for this was find enthnal free gas and fill it up for off season storage

[sib]

My intend for this was find enthnal free gas and fill it up for off season storage

Your need to do this might depend on how long your off season is.  In my case, in New England, it runs from some time in December to some time in April.  I have never worried about the fuel in the tank "aging" during this interval, and I've never experienced any problems with: 1) fouled injectors; 2) rust in tank; 3) swelling or clogged fuel filter; 4) swelling or disintegrating rubber parts.  Maybe with E15 or higher ethanol levels, these things might happen, but not with the E10 I use.  As far as I'm concerned, this issue is urban folklore, along with black cats, walking under ladders, and stepping on sidewalk cracks.

[Two Checks]

Urban folklore......riiii iiiiight. lots of small engine shops would tell you otherwise.

[charlie b]

The only small engines that I have seen that had trouble were the 2 strokes with the 'pumper' carbs.  The rubber diaphragm goes out and the other little rubber bits give up.  I do run the expensive stuff in them (premixed fuel).  Note: Stihl does have warnings about alcohol fuel.  Their caution is to not STORE it with alcohol in the system.  If you run the tank dry before storage it is supposed to be fine.

My 4 stoke lawn equipment has always worked fine on E10.  They are all less than 10yrs old so maybe the mfgs changed the bits to conform to alcohol.  I do add stabil to it cause they sit for so long I don't want the varnish buildup.  My 4 stroke generator has also been fine on E10, even after not being run for 5 or 6 months.

My 'antique' motorcycle has never had a problem with E10.  If it does get stored for more than a few weeks I'll put some stabil in it as well.

If I had any real old 4 stroke lawn gear or 70's/earlier vehicles, I might use alcohol free.  Then again, I'd probably just rebuild the carbs with new gaskets and such and run it on E10.

[Testarossa]

On the Triumph, if I neglect to drain the carb before storing for more than a month, the pilot (idle) jet needs cleaning before it will start again. This is a fact. What's not a fact: One of the local vintage twin guys told me this is because of ethanol -- he says the evaporation of the alcohol speeds the evaporation of other volatiles, accelerating the accumulation of gum. Only have his word for that process.

[charlie b]

Yep, but, I suspect you'd have that problem with non-alcohol fuels as well.  If you let the fuel in a carb bowl evaporate then it will leave nasty varnish deposits.  E10 means that 10% of the fuel will evaporate faster.

[sib]

Yep, but, I suspect you'd have that problem with non-alcohol fuels as well.  If you let the fuel in a cab bowl evaporate then it will leave nasty varnish deposits.  E10 means that 10% of the fuel will evaporate faster.

Yep, I started working around engines in the late-1950s, long before ethanol, and carbs got just as gummed up then as they do now.

[Kiwi_Roy]

That paper is about corrosion. Can you cite one about tank swelling, and in particular the role of water that is "pulled" from the atmosphere by ethanol? Does water permeate the plastic, causing it to expand?

Moto

I have a VII Sport with Nylon tank, the tank has expanded to the point the forks hit it at full lock.
It's just about impossible to get the rear bolt in place because it's grown in length.

[sib]

I have a VII Sport with Nylon tank, the tank has expanded to the point the forks hit it at full lock.
It's just about impossible to get the rear bolt in place because it's grown in length.

Those nylon tanks do seem to have been an unmitigated disaster.  Are we sure the swelling is caused by the ethanol?  For several years, MBTE was used as an octane-boosting additive.  That nasty stuff is an ether, more aggressive than ethanol.  Could that be the culprit?

[Nic in Western NYS]

Spent too much money on replacing small engine carbs when I didn't use them enough.  I have no idea if it's from ethanol or from additives.  No problems when I've used Sta-Bil and either Star Tron or SeaFoam.  I'm dealing with a small amount of evidence and correlation rather than causation since I didn't do a controlled experiment, but no way I'm letting modern gas sit for long untreated.

[Moto]

I have a VII Sport with Nylon tank, the tank has expanded to the point the forks hit it at full lock.
It's just about impossible to get the rear bolt in place because it's grown in length.

Those nylon tanks do seem to have been an unmitigated disaster.  Are we sure the swelling is caused by the ethanol?  For several years, MBTE was used as an octane-boosting additive.  That nasty stuff is an ether, more aggressive than ethanol.  Could that be the culprit?

We've had a couple of posts in the last few days that seem to indicate it is water infiltrating the plastic of the tank, causing it to swell, with the ethanol playing a facilitating role by attracting water to the gas. I believe this is probably true, but I'm asking for citations of authoritative sources so I can read more about it.

Sign216 said he/she could cite "numerous academic papers."

I am not disputing the account. Just curious to learn more.

Moto

[Mark_Z]

This may just happen around here(Memphis) but I have heard that ethanol is added at the time the truck exits the refinery, giving rise to the notice on all the gas pumps that there MAY be up to 10% ethanol in the gas being sold.

No mainstream company (Shell, Chevron, et al) can be relied on to produce ethanol-free gas unless it is specifically labeled as being ethanol-free. The claim that their premium grades are ethanol-free is a modern myth, since the base stock is the same as their other grades and the additives control the final octane ratings. That being said, some mainstream stations do offer ethanol-free fuel - but it has to have a separate pump and nozzle, and a separate storage tank, making it a costly proposition for that station. Many modern pumps are 'blending' pumps, with two tanks (regular and premium) and the mid-grade(s) being created by drawing a mix from the two tanks together.  Ethanol-free just can't be delivered in that scenario.

Another site to check is http://www.buyrealgas.com/index.html . I would say if a location shows on both sites, and shows signs of traffic, it's likely worth a try.

[ratguzzi]

We pay more per gallon for ethanol free gas but we also get 10-12% better gas mileage vs the corn-gas.  Due to the better gas mileage, the total cost for miles driven is almost exactly the same between the two. 
We can find ethanol free at four stations that are within five miles of our home so for the last few years, that's all we use.  When we first moved to SC from San Diego, eleven years ago, I bought a new, zero cut lawn mower and several Stihl two stroke power lawn tools. We used E10 (not knowing any better) and within six months, every one of the lawn tools (including the mower) had problems with their carburetors.  That's when we discovered non ethanol and have never had another problem with any of our lawn equipment.

I struggle with this.  Can't see the10-12% better mileage. If alcohol had zero energy and the gas has 10% alcohol, then I could see a 10% increase in fuel mileage but since alcohol has about 80-90% the energy of gasoline it seems the maximum increase in mileage would have to be closer to 2%. 
Unless I am missing something.
JB

[Two Checks]

I can tell you from experience it takes almost 3x the alcohol to make the same horsepower as gas.

[jackson]

I struggle with this.  Can't see the10-12% better mileage. If alcohol had zero energy and the gas has 10% alcohol, then I could see a 10% increase in fuel mileage but since alcohol has about 80-90% the energy of gasoline it seems the maximum increase in mileage would have to be closer to 2%. 
Unless I am missing something.
JB

This has been discussed previously and others have reported the exact increase in mpg when using non ethanol vs E10.
My former Breva V7 and my present V7 have both had two tanks of E10 run through them when I first bought them and then two successive tanks of non ethanol; The riding conditions were the same and each got over 10% better mileage. (both consistently get 51-53 mpg with non ethanol) Same thing with our automobiles.  We have taken trips and couldn't find non ethanol so we were forced to use E10.  Gas mileage was worse each time this happened.
As I said earlier, others have run the same test and found the same results that we did.  I also have friends that I've told about this and they have tried it and also had the same results.
To me, there's absolutely no reason to put E10 in your vehicle if non ethanol is available.  The stuff has no value other than political payback (which is how it got mandated by the clowns in DC to be forced down people's throats as a certain percentage of all gasoline produced for sale in the USA) 
*FWIW; here's a link to a discussion re. gas mileage using non ethanol vs E10 that I found with a quick Google search:
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/ethanol-free-gas-for-2-weeks.217978/

[sib]

....To me, there's absolutely no reason to put E10 in your vehicle if non ethanol is available.  The stuff has no value other than political payback (which is how it got mandated by the clowns in DC to be forced down people's throats as a certain percentage of all gasoline produced for sale in the USA)

While I agree with the sentiment, there IS a reason to use E10:  Even if E0 gives 10% higher mileage, it's economically disadvantageous if it costs more than 10% more than E10 (of course, assuming that E10 doesn't cause other problems, like in my case, with a steel tank and modern rubber parts in the engine).

[jackson]

While I agree with the sentiment, there IS a reason to use E10:  Even if E0 gives 10% higher mileage, it's economically disadvantageous if it costs more than 10% more than E10 (of course, assuming that E10 doesn't cause other problems, like in my case, with a steel tank and modern rubber parts in the engine).

Your math is totally flawed.  Do an actual calculation and you'll find that this is not true.  The costs are almost exactly the same for the number of miles traveled.
Here's a real cost calculation using mid grade E10 vs mid grade non ethanol E10 in the area where we live:

I consistently get 51 mpg (and sometimes more) vs 46 on the V7 (twin throttle bodies)
Using non ethanol:  51 mpg X 4 gallons equals 204 miles 
Using E10: 46 mpg X 4 gallons equals 184 miles

So, if I travel exactly 200 miles, here' the actual cost to fill up with the amount of gasoline consumed.  It costs .09 cents more for me to use non ethanol vs E10 and many times, I'll get as much as 53 mpg which makes it even cheaper per mile traveled than E10.

200 miles @ 46 mpg = 4.35 gallons X 2.39 per gallon = $10.40
200 miles @ 51 mpg = 3.9 gallons X 2.69 per gallon = $10.49

[Farmer Dan]

I plow the snow in my driveway with a Ford 9N tractor (1940) about every two years I have to fill the gas tank.  I don't know if that engine is too old to care or too stupid but it don't seem to care if the gas is old or E10.  My vintage bike is a MotoGuzzi Eldorado (1972) it has never had a problem with E10 or straight gas it runs the same and gets the same mileage.  I've never used stabil in my life, I classify it as a snake oil.  Bike sits all winter, charge the battery in the spring and it will start with the same old E10 gas it had in the fall.  Tractor is the same way, It will sit until the snow flies again, charge the battery and it starts right up.

[sign216]

We've had a couple of posts in the last few days that seem to indicate it is water infiltrating the plastic of the tank, causing it to swell, with the ethanol playing a facilitating role by attracting water to the gas. I believe this is probably true, but I'm asking for citations of authoritative sources so I can read more about it.

Sign216 said he/she could cite "numerous academic papers."

I am not disputing the account. Just curious to learn more.

Moto

Moto,
Here are three sources regarding ethanol's affinity for water.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj8gpbplMzNAhVHkh4KHYemCIIQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalpetroleum.net%2FEthanol-Water-Phase-Separation-facts.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG_GuHo-Qz_xec4KmP-Vb5zpaMLWA&sig2=QRH_VrVH-yUK-dKKqlIhcA&cad=rja

http://www.mossmotors.com/SiteGraphics/Pages/ethanol.html

http://www.lcbamarketing.com/phase_separation_in_ethanol_blen.htm

[Moto]

Moto,
Here are three sources regarding ethanol's affinity for water.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj8gpbplMzNAhVHkh4KHYemCIIQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalpetroleum.net%2FEthanol-Water-Phase-Separation-facts.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG_GuHo-Qz_xec4KmP-Vb5zpaMLWA&sig2=QRH_VrVH-yUK-dKKqlIhcA&cad=rja

http://www.mossmotors.com/SiteGraphics/Pages/ethanol.html

http://www.lcbamarketing.com/phase_separation_in_ethanol_blen.htm

Thanks, Sign.

Those are good papers about phase separation, but I don't see any mention of the particular idea that I was interested in: that water in the gas migrates into the structure of the plastic tank, causing the distortion. Maybe it wasn't you who suggested that, looking back. I confused your more general statement about effects of water with this specific claim from Hugh Straub, in the recent Breva 750 Success thread:

Actually, the ethanol attracts water which in turn is absorbed by the nylon tank, causing the tank to swell. Left unchecked, the tank can swell and break on its mountings.  MG was not the only marque seduced into using nylon tanks to create swervy lines.  Reportedly no problem with pure gasoline, which is becoming increasingly difficult to find.

I think I asked him for more details, too. I've been reading about water permeation through plastic lately, and was intrigued.

Moto

[averb]

Moto,
Here are three sources regarding ethanol's affinity for water.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj8gpbplMzNAhVHkh4KHYemCIIQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalpetroleum.net%2FEthanol-Water-Phase-Separation-facts.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG_GuHo-Qz_xec4KmP-Vb5zpaMLWA&sig2=QRH_VrVH-yUK-dKKqlIhcA&cad=rja

http://www.mossmotors.com/SiteGraphics/Pages/ethanol.html

http://www.lcbamarketing.com/phase_separation_in_ethanol_blen.htm

Add to this the fact that Nylon 6 (the material the tanks are moulded from) is hygroscopic and can absorb up to 9.5% of its weight in water which  causes the plastic to swell. So when you have the ethanol absorbing moisture, then phase separation you have the potential for the tanks to grow if the overall sealing is poor or "bubbles" to occur where there are small flaws in the internal sealing of the tank.

The good news is that if the tanks is left in a dry environment the moisture will migrate back out of the plastic and the parts will revert to their original size.

The bad news is if you leave the bike stationary for long periods of time you are more likely to have a problem.

I think that the main reason why some people suffer and some don't despite similar usage and conditions is purely down to the variation in the quality of the sealing in manufacture.

Steve

[Alchymyst]

Here in Iowa most all the Casey's stations sell both regular (87) and premium (91) ethanol free gas.  I run it in everything.  Maybe its just a belief thing, but works for me.  Most of my engines are older (including my 25 year old craftsman riding mower) and run great.  Mechanic friend of mine told me that all these older engines were designed to run gasoline, period.  To me it's worth the extra 40 cents a gallon.