Ethanol free gas

[toukow]

Ok, this probably is a dead horse, but I researched the Internet, there is still no defiant answer to this. I am living in West Washington State, where are the good places to get ethanol free gas? How reliable is pure-gas.org? I notice the gas station that listed on the pure-gas.org near my house does not have much traffic, i mean there are not many people buy gas over there, their gas may be really old. Is Shell V-Power premium is still ethanol free? Thanks for the help.

For 5 gallon/portable cans I fill them at the Des Moines Marina not far from Tacoma. For vehicles I go to the Grange in Issaquah 500 yards off of I-90. I stockpile 30 gallons or so with Sta-bil for the older bikes and for when the 'big one' (earthquake) hits.  Got a 14 gallon gas caddy for the bikes and mounted it high enough that minimal pumping is required. Hope this helps, Toukow

 

[Rotten Ralph]

Could this be an additional cause of hard starting carb engines with gas that was stored in the tank too long?

Because the bulk of the fuel is made from heavy molecules that require the engine to reach 150° F, or higher to vaporize, a small amount of lighter molecules, that vaporize near ambient air temperature, is included in the blend. Because there so little of these light molecules you need to flood the engine with fuel to get them into the engine to create enough energy to turn the engine over, and keep it going until the engine warms up.

The lack of them, either from stale gas where all of the light molecules have vaporized off naturally or the fuel mixture is so lean there is not enough of these, and slightly heavier molecules to keep the engine running until the engine is warm enough to vaporize the very heavy molecules that make up the bulk of the fuel.

[Sheepdog]

A few years back, Dave Searles of Motorcycle Consumer News did several articles about ethanol laced fuels. His assertions were quite damning of the stuff and the problems he listed were manifold:
*E10 runs about 3% leaner than pure gas...E15 nearly 5%.
*The hygroscopic nature of ethanol introduces water to the fuel system. This results in several really bad conditions...alumin um oxide (the abrasive used in sandpaper) forms wherever the water lingers around aluminum (like a carburetor float bowl) and some rubber and plastic components swell or otherwise become misshaped.
We have a small farm and we have an equipment graveyard of line trimmers, mowers, power washers, and chainsaws. i have had to replace most of the fuel system in my boat, 4-wheeler, and currently my '03 Bonneville. The US has stuffed it's landfills with broken machines, so we can use a fuel that actually costs more to produce and results in more pollution due to inefficiency and the increased use of weed-killers, pesticides, and petroleum based fertilizers. All so the farm lobby can continue to produce GMO corn. The American people are being taken for a ride...

[Alchymyst]

A few (ok 10 or 12) years ago I worked in industrial first aid supply.  A growing market at the time was the ethanol plants popping up all over.  I got pretty chummy with some of the personnel and found out that one little known cost of producing ethanol is the enormous amount of fresh water consumed in the process.  IIRC about 700 gals per 1 gal of corn juice.  Mostly for washing.  Just like home brewing or any chemistry, your equipment needs to be CLEAN.  Have to agree that it is a boondoggle;  without federal mandates and $$ it would not survive.  But perhaps it will lead to better developments in biofuels down the road.

[Nic in Western NYS]

A few (ok 10 or 12) years ago I worked in industrial first aid supply.  A growing market at the time was the ethanol plants popping up all over.  I got pretty chummy with some of the personnel and found out that one little known cost of producing ethanol is the enormous amount of fresh water consumed in the process.  IIRC about 700 gals per 1 gal of corn juice.  Mostly for washing.  Just like home brewing or any chemistry, your equipment needs to be CLEAN.  Have to agree that it is a boondoggle;  without federal mandates and $$ it would not survive.  But perhaps it will lead to better developments in biofuels down the road.

Yes!  Dangerous business to undervalue water versus fuel.

[Rough Edge racing]

 The stories of E10 fuel destroying fuel systems always comes up in these conversation...Then there's people that have no problems with  E10 in any engines....Some have been using E10 for years and didn't know it...They they realize they have been using it  for years   and all of a sudden they have problems..
  Non ethanol 91 octane  is readily available where I live...I use it in chainsaws and the small 4 cycles engines but to be honest my wife's small junky two stroke tiller was the only engine affected by the E10..Just running non ethanol in it cleaned it up....
  About 5 years ago I was working on an older Chevy truck with a carburetor...I had pulled off the carb and some fuel spilled into the intake manifold..I just threw a rag over the opening and ordered parts to fix the carb....I knew it was E10 fuel but the carb was clean inside...A few days later I go to install the carb . I remove the rag and look into the manifold for stray parts....It still looks wet inside...A wipe with my finger says it's dry...The E10 evaporated and left a residue...I poured a little fresh gas into the intake and the residue washed away.....I believe what happens is if the engine is used infrequently the residue gets "cured" and fresh gas won't dissolve it and it can plug up orifices.....
 I think how much problem you have or don't have depends on how often the engine is run and the type of carburetor...Some may be affected more than others...
 

[Perazzimx14]

For older bikes, a reasonable (though illegal) alternative is aviation gas, the 100LL variety. LL is low lead, so this is verboten in bikes with emissions equipment. Also illegal because you don't pay road taxes on it. Nonetheless very expensive -- around here $4 a gallon. But if the goal is zero ethanol, this is where you're guaranteed to find it.

Low lead aviation fuel has a lot more lead than leaded automotive gasoline from the days of old. Not a great choice for regular use in non aviation motors.

[ratguzzi]

Ok, I respect that. I also understand that I have minimal riding experience. I am just over 800,000 miles on Guzzis and about 200,000 plus on jap and other bikes. So I am not a Karl Werth or a Ken Hand so my experience should bbe taken with doubt. I have run 85 octane to 105. Ethanol and pure gas, I have NEVER seen any substantial difference in any fuel I have run. My big blocks with carbs and points are always around 50-53 mpg, the injected always mid to low 40s. My small blocks are all injected and low 50s. Wind and speed are my real deals on mileage variations.
Injected bikes, cold weather can mess them up.
But hopefully with more experience riding, I can finally see these huge increases using pure gas! I can't wait!!!!
JB

This has been discussed previously and others have reported the exact increase in mpg when using non ethanol vs E10.
My former Breva V7 and my present V7 have both had two tanks of E10 run through them when I first bought them and then two successive tanks of non ethanol; The riding conditions were the same and each got over 10% better mileage. (both consistently get 51-53 mpg with non ethanol) Same thing with our automobiles.  We have taken trips and couldn't find non ethanol so we were forced to use E10.  Gas mileage was worse each time this happened.
As I said earlier, others have run the same test and found the same results that we did.  I also have friends that I've told about this and they have tried it and also had the same results.
To me, there's absolutely no reason to put E10 in your vehicle if non ethanol is available.  The stuff has no value other than political payback (which is how it got mandated by the clowns in DC to be forced down people's throats as a certain percentage of all gasoline produced for sale in the USA) 
*FWIW; here's a link to a discussion re. gas mileage using non ethanol vs E10 that I found with a quick Google search:
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/ethanol-free-gas-for-2-weeks.217978/

[SED]

To answer the original question: in Whatcom county most Union 76 stations offer non-ethanol 90 octane and some of the farm suppliers have non-ethanol in all octanes.

Ethanol raises the octane of the fuel cheaply so even without subsidies, ethanol is likely to remain in the fuel: http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/02/10/466010209/the-shocking-truth-about-americas-ethanol-law-it-doesnt-matter-for-now

Looking at a bottle of octane booster labeled "no ethanol" it listed IPA as an ingredient - another name for Isopropyl Alcohol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol   So I wonder if non-ethanol fuel contains other forms of alcohol?

Ethanol and pure gas, I have NEVER seen any substantial difference in any fuel I have run. My big blocks with carbs and points are always around 50-53 mpg, the injected always mid to low 40s. My small blocks are all injected and low 50s. Wind and speed are my real deals on mileage variations.

John,
I only noticed ethanol was leaner than non-ethanol when running ethanol through a carb with too rich a main jet when I got a tank of non-ethanol while running at high elevation and it made the bike run with less power wide open.  The difference was obvious, but only because the main was too rich.

[organfixsing]

Many , many years ago, some short track racing bikes were run on alchohol 100%. The bikes were only short track (maybe speedway) because they had to be jetted so rich compared to running petrol.

The point of all this is that they also had to run brass or bronze carburetors because the alchohol would corrode the mazak metal carburetors. I don't believe that this corrosion was caused by water in the fuel as it would have been drained after racing.

I remember this vaguely as being discussed in "Tuning For Speed" book by Phil Irving.( Phil was the main designer behind the VINCENT motorcycle engines.)

Cheers all
Brian

[Rough Edge racing]

 ^^^ Alcohol used for racing has traditionally been Methanol that is far more corrosive than Ethanol...

[jackson]

Ok, I respect that. I also understand that I have minimal riding experience. I am just over 800,000 miles on Guzzis and about 200,000 plus on jap and other bikes. So I am not a Karl Werth or a Ken Hand so my experience should bbe taken with doubt. I have run 85 octane to 105. Ethanol and pure gas, I have NEVER seen any substantial difference in any fuel I have run. My big blocks with carbs and points are always around 50-53 mpg, the injected always mid to low 40s. My small blocks are all injected and low 50s. Wind and speed are my real deals on mileage variations.
Injected bikes, cold weather can mess them up.
But hopefully with more experience riding, I can finally see these huge increases using pure gas! I can't wait!!!!
JB

John, I also have over 800,000 miles under my belt, riding motorcycles (probably closer to 1 million miles).  If you read my other post, I showed an actual calculation that reflected my use of ethanol vs non-ethanol.  If you don't wish to accept those findings (and those of others who have posted, it's a free country but there's no need for sarcasm re. what others have found to have worked for them.  If you don't care to partake of the information, just keep on doing what you've been doing.  (no sarcasm intended, whatsoever).

[Rough Edge racing]

Low lead aviation fuel has a lot more lead than leaded automotive gasoline from the days of old. Not a great choice for regular use in non aviation motors.

 Please explain why other than the obvious lead pollution, damge to convertors on newer stuff and increased cost...

[kingoffleece]

This discussion is always interesting.  Someone usually has zero problems with E-10 and they never do any Sta-Bil or such or any winter/summer storage stuff.

Then there are those of us in the business who see problems often enough to take preventative measures as a normal course.  And, then, there are those professionals who never see a problem.

At my friends 4 season power sports shop the techs make a fair paycheck cleaning winter toys in summer and vice versa.  Bikes, sleds, 4 wheelers, and commercial mowers.

Interesting.

[Two Checks]

Na$car had problems switching to E15.
One team has their own brand of oil made for them. You can buy it for your race car. A friend did. His engine immediately grenaded. Built another, it grenaded. Built another and ran it on race gas, it was fine.
Every time h used it in an alcohol fueld engine he had prblems. The na$car team was having the same problems with their own engines on E15.
Hecontacted them and they acknowledged the problem. Seems the oil didn't like the blow by from the rings, even running E15. On E 100 you are literally running the engine on the verge of hydrolocking and it washes the cyliders with fuel and the oil sump fills with alcohol. Their oil couldn't withstand the dilution and they had lubrication failure.
He switched brands of oil and no more problems. In fact, he now drains the oil into a metal pan, burns off the alcohol and reuses the oil.
And he uses brass bodied carbs due to the corrosion.

Avgas isn't formulated for street vehicles which must run well at idle as ell as at varying speeds and loads, where aviation engines normally rev slow and run at constant speed. The vapor point between av and mogas isdifferent. Many other differences make avgas a poor choice for autos.

[charlie b]

Yep, some have problems and some don't.

All depends on the exact composition of the rubber stuff in your fuel path and how long the vehicle sits between uses.

Stihl is very strict about fuels.  IF you use E10 then it must be 'fresh', ie, less than a month old.  And the tank should be drained and engine run until all fuel is gone from the system when you put it away.  And, yes, I have 'killed' a two stroke carb using that stuff.  I just buy the premixed fuel since I use so little of it (1/2 gal lasts a season).

Since I have had it (2009 and 60k miles) the Goose has never run on anything but E10.  It is an 84 model and the carbs have not been rebuilt to my knowledge, ever.  It rarely sits for more than a couple of weeks.  I also do not turn off the petcocks so the bowls don't run dry.

Mileage?  Don't know and really don't care.  I am not going searching around looking for alcohol free when I am out on the road.  You can spend more money going out of your way looking for non-alcohol than you save in using it.

[Cross-tie Walker]

There's a station in Ballard if you live in the Seattle area...

[Kev m]

Your need to do this might depend on how long your off season is.  In my case, in New England, it runs from some time in December to some time in April.  I have never worried about the fuel in the tank "aging" during this interval, and I've never experienced any problems with: 1) fouled injectors; 2) rust in tank; 3) swelling or clogged fuel filter; 4) swelling or disintegrating rubber parts.  Maybe with E15 or higher ethanol levels, these things might happen, but not with the E10 I use.  As far as I'm concerned, this issue is urban folklore, along with black cats, walking under ladders, and stepping on sidewalk cracks.

There are a few problems with the ethanol that were well documented in the marine industry about a decade ago when the proliferation of E10 started causing havoc in boat yards. There were industry articles and technical service bulletins from manufacturers.

Potential problems include:

* Ethanol acts as a solvent, so if you introduce it to an older motor which has any varnish buildup in the tank or float bowl (from seasons of fuel evaporation) then you will likely cause clogging of filters or jets as the partially dissolved deposits break free.

* Ethanol attacks some materials, like fiberglass, which was actually used for fuel tanks in some old marine applications, not to mention you don't want to spill it on hulls for the same reason.

* Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it is more likely to suffer from water-contamination if so exposed.

And as discussed you do get lower mileage which can reduce the range of a given bike.

[Kev m]

Those nylon tanks do seem to have been an unmitigated disaster.  Are we sure the swelling is caused by the ethanol?  For several years, MBTE was used as an octane-boosting additive.  That nasty stuff is an ether, more aggressive than ethanol.  Could that be the culprit?

AFAIK I've never seen a study that proves it's the E10 specifically that causes tank swelling on certain bikes with plastic fuel tanks.

But there is anecdotal evidence that it could be the E10 or something that is generally added with E10 that is not used with E0. Certainly talk on the Ducati forums included people whose tanks never swelled on E0, and conversely I don't recall ever hearing of one that did. Also the problem seemed to be relegated to the US and NOT the EU which was not using E10.

So though correlation is not causation there does seem to be a suggestion that it could be the ethanol.

[Texas Turnip]

We just returned from a schoolgirl 4,800 mile ride and used nothing but cheap gas from a variety of stations including a few that had gravel parking lots and no name pumps. Beaver's V-7 and my Big Breva both ran fine.

I guess you could have two identical Guzzis with one running cheap and the other running the best on identical conditions. It is a proven fact that KERA members get the best mileage. I'll lay money on that fact.

Tex

[Scott of the Sahara]

The Grange in Issaquah sells ethanol free gas