Author Topic: 3 second oil light  (Read 3884 times)

Offline scra99tch

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3 second oil light
« on: September 17, 2016, 09:49:37 PM »
Calvin,  I was sitting on a slope where I normally park bike, it sat for two days.  But when I started it I got a 2-3 second oil light on what's an abnormal amount of time before I worry. 

Got bike on relatively flat ground and measured with the crappy plastic dipstick, did not notice any oil but after a bit it finally measure on the very bottom of stick.

1974 Eldorado
2007 California Vintage

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2016, 10:02:08 PM »
well, add some oil...

was there any puddle below it? anything downstream on the bike?
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2016, 10:09:23 PM »
Well if the valves start to make noise you have 1/2qt left.
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Offline scra99tch

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2016, 05:40:51 AM »
Added some anyways.  Even after an oil change I've noticed it would stay on longer then it should (1-2) seconds and I have the hose clamp on.

It never come on while riding or that I've seen.
1974 Eldorado
2007 California Vintage

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2016, 05:40:51 AM »

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2016, 07:04:08 AM »
The oil pressure switches are known to go bad, the one on my Cal2 hasn't worked in over 20yrs. I just haven't changed it yet.   
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Offline lucky phil

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2016, 12:52:03 AM »
Added some anyways.  Even after an oil change I've noticed it would stay on longer then it should (1-2) seconds and I have the hose clamp on.

It never come on while riding or that I've seen.
Yes, as it would after an oil change.

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Offline lucky phil

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2016, 12:55:32 AM »
Calvin,  I was sitting on a slope where I normally park bike, it sat for two days.  But when I started it I got a 2-3 second oil light on what's an abnormal amount of time before I worry. 

Got bike on relatively flat ground and measured with the crappy plastic dipstick, did not notice any oil but after a bit it finally measure on the very bottom of stick.
An engine can run for a short time or a long time without oil pressure, depends on what the engine is doing at the time. Idle......quite a while, at max torque....not very long.
I've seen the oil light stay on for 10 second or so after an oil and filter change, not something that concerns me.
When the engine is not at operating temp and has been run for a short time it may take 10 minutes or more for the oil to draing back to the sump for an accurate oil level check.

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Online Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2016, 02:21:35 AM »
I have 4 Guzzis, every now and then an oil light will come on.
I think the switches are effected by riding in the rain, the light will come on while wet then go out for good.
I have replaced a couple to get a working light for about a month.
The switches have such a tiny diaphragm you can't really expect too much of them.

If you really want to know if you have oil pressure add a pressure gauge, 0 - 100 psi is a good range the bike will run at 40 - 60.
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Offline pehayes

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2016, 12:18:37 PM »
Calvin,  I was sitting on a slope where I normally park bike, it sat for two days.  But when I started it I got a 2-3 second oil light on what's an abnormal amount of time before I worry. 

Got bike on relatively flat ground and measured with the crappy plastic dipstick, did not notice any oil but after a bit it finally measure on the very bottom of stick.

Can you describe your 'slope' further?  Were you pointing UP hill or along the SIDE of the hill?

The Guzzi engine is not 'level' or 'square' or 'parallel' within the frame.  The engine points up forward slightly right from the factory.  Thus, the oil level in your crankcase is not actually level as respects the crankcase.  The oil pump is on the front of the engine.  If you were pointing the moto UP hill, the normal oil level would be very low in the front of the sump and very high in the back of the sump.

Use your stock plastic dipstick to just plug the hole.   If you want to properly check your oil, fabricate some sort of easily-readable substitute.  Drain your oil.  Add TWO quarts precisely.  Install your substitute dipstick and mark the stick to show the 2-quart level.  Now add a 3rd quart and re-mark the dipstick for the 3-quart level.  Here are pics of mine.  The 3 grooves represent the 3-quart level.  The single groove represents the factory specified 3-liter level.  I'm never anal about that discrepancy and use 3-quarts only.





If you set your bike on level ground and on the center stand and could barely detect oil on the stick, then you are SERIOUSLY low on oil and in danger of toasting your motor.  It is hard to believe you could be that low without spillage or dripping somewhere else.  If you were parked facing up on a very steep slope, oil might easily drip overnight past the rear main crankshaft oil seal.  If the ground below is gravel or sand, etc.  the constant overnight drip might just penetrate into the ground without leaving a detectable puddle.

Even though it might have enough oil to lubricate the motor, that less quantity of oil is going to circulate very rapidly and get very hot.  The more oil you have available, the longer it takes each molecule to cycle through the system and thus more time to dissipate its heat before going back to work as a lubricant.

Get your oil level up to normal and park on relatively level ground.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline pehayes

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2016, 12:24:24 PM »
BTW, the reason that your oil light has a delay is that your LOW level is below the displacement gears of the pump.  The pump now has to suck oil up from the sump before it can be pressure injected into the engine.  The closer that the oil level is to 'normal', the easier and faster it is for the pump to suck the oil into its gears.  A displacement pump is a lot more efficient at pushing oil and than it is at sucking it up from the sump.



Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline SeanF

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2016, 03:13:02 PM »
Informative posts, Patrick.  :thumb:

Bill Hagan

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2016, 03:23:11 PM »
Informative posts, Patrick.  :thumb:

Yes, indeed.

Thanks, Sig. Hayes.   :bow:

Bill


pete roper

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2016, 04:21:38 PM »
BTW, the reason that your oil light has a delay is that your LOW level is below the displacement gears of the pump.  The pump now has to suck oil up from the sump before it can be pressure injected into the engine.  The closer that the oil level is to 'normal', the easier and faster it is for the pump to suck the oil into its gears.  A displacement pump is a lot more efficient at pushing oil and than it is at sucking it up from the sump.



Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

I'd disagree with that. The oil level is pretty much irrelevant. It has to be pushed into the pump, (There is no such thing as 'Suck' although it's a convenient way of describing the action.) by the pressure in the crankcase forcing the oil into the low pressure areas created by the separating teeth in the pump. The height of the oil in the sump is going to have a negligible effect on the time taken for that to occur.

With any bike that has the 'Upside down' filter in the sump there is the problem that even if the filter is pre-filled it will tend to empty again before the engine is started. Even if the pump is working to the best of its ability it first has to prime the pump, then it has to fill the filter and the oil galleries, bearings etc. before the oil reaches the wretched sender switch on the top of the block. That always takes time. Hence the delay in the light going out. If you just change the oil the priming period tends to be much shorter due to the filter already being full of oil and the drain-back being limited.

It's not really terrifically important though. As long as the light goes out in a few seconds that's all you need to know!

Pete

Offline Rough Edge racing

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2016, 04:34:28 PM »
I'd disagree with that. The oil level is pretty much irrelevant. It has to be pushed into the pump, (There is no such thing as 'Suck' although it's a convenient way of describing the action.) by the pressure in the crankcase forcing the oil into the low pressure areas created by the separating teeth in the pump. The height of the oil in the sump is going to have a negligible effect on the time taken for that to occur.

With any bike that has the 'Upside down' filter in the sump there is the problem that even if the filter is pre-filled it will tend to empty again before the engine is started. Even if the pump is working to the best of its ability it first has to prime the pump, then it has to fill the filter and the oil galleries, bearings etc. before the oil reaches the wretched sender switch on the top of the block. That always takes time. Hence the delay in the light going out. If you just change the oil the priming period tends to be much shorter due to the filter already being full of oil and the drain-back being limited.

It's not really terrifically important though. As long as the light goes out in a few seconds that's all you need to know!

Pete

 And the mechanism pushing the oil into the pump instead of suction is atmospheric air pressure? The pump is above the oil level, yes?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 04:39:33 PM by Rough Edge racing »
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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2016, 04:40:25 PM »
Atmospheric plus whatever extra from blow-by and crankcase volume differential. There is no such thing as 'Suck'. The pump creates a low pressure area, a depression, and the oil gets pushed into it from an area of higher pressure.

When there is a hurricane forming in the gulf the meteorologists don't say "There is a large tropical suck forming in the Gulf of Mexico." do they?

Pete

Offline pehayes

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2016, 05:34:22 PM »
Pete:  No sense in a pedantic discussion about what to call the movement from areas of higher pressure to lower.  The physics are constant, only the language changes.  I get it.  Call it as you wish.  Next time I do a joint and create a low pressure area between my cheeks I'll have to remember how the smoke is getting moved.   :evil:

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline Rough Edge racing

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2016, 05:41:45 PM »
Atmospheric plus whatever extra from blow-by and crankcase volume differential. There is no such thing as 'Suck'. The pump creates a low pressure area, a depression, and the oil gets pushed into it from an area of higher pressure.

When there is a hurricane forming in the gulf the meteorologists don't say "There is a large tropical suck forming in the Gulf of Mexico." do they?

Pete

 And there's no "vacuum" in an intake manifold.... :grin:
89 Honda 650 NT , 79 Triumph 750,61 BSA A10, 650 Triumph land speed racer , dual 650 Triumph engine land speed racer.
" I  don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
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Offline Mr Revhead

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2016, 05:40:43 AM »
I've had issues with oil pressure switches, rode int he rain, it stopped working. Then would randomly come on, unnerving! So I replaced it.
Then washed the bike the next day... Needed ANOTHER new one... This one I coated in RTV around the top, been fine ever since

Offline twhitaker

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2016, 07:54:09 AM »
I've had issues with oil pressure switches, rode int he rain, it stopped working. Then would randomly come on, unnerving! So I replaced it.
Then washed the bike the next day... Needed ANOTHER new one... This one I coated in RTV around the top, been fine ever since

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Offline Rough Edge racing

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2016, 10:54:10 AM »
 Odds are the oil pressure won't be a reliability issue.....It's not a big deal to install an oil pressure gauge ... What oil pressure triggers the light , 10 PSI? What does the light tell you when running hard on a hot day? 15 psi at 5000 rpm may not keep the crank off the bearings... What about a gradual drop in pressure over time ? Does the light tell you about impending doom?
 
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" I  don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"

Offline Triple Jim

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2016, 11:16:31 AM »
This one I coated in RTV around the top, been fine ever since

Electrical grade RTV, I hope, like Dow Corning 738.  The usual RTV has acetic acid in it, which is somewhat corrosive to wiring and connectors and switch contacts.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 11:16:51 AM by Triple Jim »
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Offline ITSec

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2016, 02:06:47 PM »

When there is a hurricane forming in the gulf the meteorologists don't say "There is a large tropical suck forming in the Gulf of Mexico." do they?

Pete

No, but the people on the Gulf coast say "Looks like a large one - that really sucks!" or "Where's the Valium? I'm getting another tropical depression..."  :evil:
ITSecurity
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Offline ITSec

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2016, 02:10:00 PM »

I have 4 Guzzis, every now and then an oil light will come on.
I think the switches are effected by riding in the rain, the light will come on while wet then go out for good.


The ones that used the nail-head style connection and the boot that looked like a mini-sparkplug boot are particularly prone to problems when wet, and sometimes afterwards until replaced. Replacing the boot with the connector in my kit has usually solved this issue if the sensor itself is still good; I've had one in place for about 35-40,000 miles now and haven't had an oil light false reading since.
ITSecurity
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2008 Norge GT - Silver

I am but mad north-northwest!
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Offline scra99tch

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2016, 08:25:21 AM »
The slope wasn't too bad.  But moved it into garage to a somewhat level floor filled with enough oil and lucas to register don dipstick.  Still get a some dealy in oil light.  Been riding it hard and have never had light come on.  Even bombing up the steep hill to my house it has never turned on.  I am not really worried jsut have not had this happen to either the Jackal or Quota.
1974 Eldorado
2007 California Vintage

Offline pehayes

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2016, 10:22:57 AM »
...filled with enough oil and lucas to register on dipstick.

Not exactly clear what that statement means.  Just barely on the bottom?  At the two quart level?  At the three quart level.  You have already described being so low as to barely or not register on the stick previously.  You were at serious risk of permanent motor destruction.  In 10 minutes  you can correct this problem and get some peace of mind.
1-drain the oil into a clean pan.
2-use a funnel and a clean bottle or container of one-quart capacity.
3-Re-install your used oil to a precise capacity of three quarts.
4-If you can't fill the measuring bottle three times, then add whatever new oil gets you to fill the third bottle.
5-You now know EXACTLY where the nominal three quart level should register.
Nothing to lose but a few rags and cleanup time.
Find a better way to measure your oil level than the use of the stupid original black stick.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline scra99tch

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2016, 11:05:23 AM »
Will do thanks for help.

1974 Eldorado
2007 California Vintage

Offline scra99tch

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2016, 07:06:52 AM »
Changed out the oil, measured what I took out and all in all was about 3/4 shy of 3L. 

The valve cover gasket leaked on a ride home, but I did not think it spat out that much. 

1974 Eldorado
2007 California Vintage

Offline lucky phil

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Re: 3 second oil light
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2016, 04:25:39 PM »
Not exactly clear what that statement means.  Just barely on the bottom?  At the two quart level?  At the three quart level.  You have already described being so low as to barely or not register on the stick previously.  You were at serious risk of permanent motor destruction.  In 10 minutes  you can correct this problem and get some peace of mind.
1-drain the oil into a clean pan.
2-use a funnel and a clean bottle or container of one-quart capacity.
3-Re-install your used oil to a precise capacity of three quarts.
4-If you can't fill the measuring bottle three times, then add whatever new oil gets you to fill the third bottle.
5-You now know EXACTLY where the nominal three quart level should register.
Nothing to lose but a few rags and cleanup time.
Find a better way to measure your oil level than the use of the stupid original black stick.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

You forgot to mention the theodolite and jacks to get the engine perfectly level and the longitudinal correction factor.

Ciao
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